Confused about Phoenix roebeleniis cold hardiness

[Palmfarmer]

Most websites tell me these will not tolerate frost or tempratures below 0 however i have 3 of them and we had some dips down to -3 this winter and not even one leaf has taken damage.  I remember someone on this forum theorising that there might be another type of Phoenix roebelenii that is cross bred to become more cold hardy sold as pygmy dates as well, but on the west coast of the usa primarily. Would be interesting to hear you guys out on this one. Happy 2020 

[kinzyjr]

There are tons of them in Central Florida and most are good to about -4C(~25F).  There were a few that defoliated and/or died in the January 2010 freeze in some areas, but they were usually in cold spots or weren't in the best health.  I've seen a few take 24F with just some minor bronzing on the top of the arch of the fronds, but too much lower and it is almost guaranteed DOA.  There are 2 observations at 19F in the Cold Hardiness Master Data and both resulted in death.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

I was living in Jacksonville, FL during the cold winters of 2009-10 and 2010-11.  My neighborhood got very close to 20F (-6.7c) and there are many P. roebellenii in that neighborhood.  None died, but they were totally defoliated two years in a row.  It took more than 12 months for them to regrow a normal size head of leaves. That freeze was quite harsh, it defoliated Bismarckias, caused quite a bit of damage to Livistona chinensis foliage, and even  burned some Washingtonia robusta.  I know we were right at the threshold for Pygmy Dates, and I'm sure they wouldn't have survived if we hadn't had such long, hot, humid, tropical summers.  I wouldn't recommend planting them in Jacksonville, but they are so common in FL that if they freeze, they aren't very expensive to replace.  Like Kinzyjr, I consider them hardy to about -4c but if frost forms on the leaves, they'll be damaged at higher temperatures.

[Xenon]

There are lots of P. roebelenii in the warmer parts of Houston that survived 20-21F in 2018. Completely defoliated but most have made a total recovery. Otherwise, these areas rarely drop below mid 20s. They were really popular in the 2000s and their continued existence (or death) has really helped to map what I would argue as the 9a-9b border in Houston. 

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

40 minutes ago, Xenon said:

There are lots of P. roebelenii in the warmer parts of Houston that survived 20-21F in 2018. Completely defoliated but most have made a total recovery. Otherwise, these areas rarely drop below mid 20s. They were really popular in the 2000s and their continued existence (or death) has really helped to map what I would argue as the 9a-9b border in Houston. 

I think Houston and Jacksonville, FL have very similar climates an microclimates.  I lived in Houston for a year, and College Station for 3.  

[Merlyn]

We had a brief 25F dip in January 2018, I think about 6 hours below freezing with most of it around 28-30F.  The skies cleared out in the early morning and it dropped to 25F for 1 hour.  My neighbor's Roebellini were unaffected, and they were not under canopy.  2 doors down a Dypsis Lutescens ("Areca Palm") was 90% burnt and most trunks died.  I don't recall seeing any other significantly damaged Roebellini in the area.

[mnorell]

There's got to be hybridization or wimpy genes causing some of this variability, plus whatever regional climatic factors may contribute. I tried several times in Natchez, Mississippi (zone 9a) and to my great surprise they were all killed when it got to about 26/27F in a multi-hour hard freeze under open sky. Perhaps it was the combination of the longer duration of the freezes and the overall chilly character of the winters there, but they were instantly knocked out when other plants were not too affected. I would typically buy them in New Orleans or Baton Rouge at big-box stores, so they would have been Florida-grown, the very glossy-leafed type (assuming that indicates genetic purity or closeness thereto), so perhaps they were just wimps compared to older stock from central Florida that may have had years of selection that may give it several degrees of extra strength in north/central Florida. I just gave up on them and used P. loureiroi and P. acaulis instead, both of which were substantially hardier.  I know that in California and the west, they are planted without much regard for frost and, as far as I have ever seen, they survive sub-freezing events. I think that could be a combination of hybridization or decades of natural selection, and also in the very driest areas of the southwest plants have quite the advantage in low temps, as frost doesn't seem to form easily in the lower humidity (dewpoints can be down in the low teens when the 32F threshold is hit). So I think there are a number of possibilities for variation with this species.

[Phoenikakias]

Call me nuts, but I think that naturally sprouted offspring from my adult specimens are a bit cold hardier than their parents.

 

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, mnorell said:

There's got to be hybridization or wimpy genes causing some of this variability, plus whatever regional climatic factors may contribute. I tried several times in Natchez, Mississippi (zone 9a) and to my great surprise they were all killed when it got to about 26/27F in a multi-hour hard freeze under open sky. Perhaps it was the combination of the longer duration of the freezes and the overall chilly character of the winters there, but they were instantly knocked out when other plants were not too affected. I would typically buy them in New Orleans or Baton Rouge at big-box stores, so they would have been Florida-grown, the very glossy-leafed type (assuming that indicates genetic purity or closeness thereto), so perhaps they were just wimps compared to older stock from central Florida that may have had years of selection that may give it several degrees of extra strength in north/central Florida. I just gave up on them and used P. loureiroi and P. acaulis instead, both of which were substantially hardier.  I know that in California and the west, they are planted without much regard for frost and, as far as I have ever seen, they survive sub-freezing events. I think that could be a combination of hybridization or decades of natural selection, and also in the very driest areas of the southwest plants have quite the advantage in low temps, as frost doesn't seem to form easily in the lower humidity (dewpoints can be down in the low teens when the 32F threshold is hit). So I think there are a number of possibilities for variation with this species.

That's strange they died on you in the mid 20s. They (the "Florida grown type") seem to be pretty common in NOLA. From what I can tell, the ones in NOLA look just like the ones in Houston. Houston and NOLA seem to be the northern limit for them on the Gulf Coast, definitely a step down in hardiness when compared to queen palms. Established P. roebelenii survive an occasional dip into the low 20s, which makes it a low end 9b palm imo.  

Edited January 10, 2020 by Xenon

[DAVEinMB]

I've been stress testing mine. It's in a plastic pot on my back patio and has seen upper 20s once ot twice and a number of nights in the low 30s and looks fine.  Most of those nights it had mini Christmas lights on it tho. If it does well in the pot the rest of this winter I have a protected spot picked out for it this spring. 

[James B]

I planted 2 triples in 2017. Both survived as low as 29 with no damage save the smallest palm on one of the triples which died on me in November and I cut it out making it a double. Whether it was cold or something else not sure. But I can say here I haven’t seen the leaves ever burn from cold so far whereas several species of Archontophoenix have received leaf burn in my yard right next to the Robellinis

[mnorell]

15 hours ago, Xenon said:

That's strange they died on you in the mid 20s. They (the "Florida grown type") seem to be pretty common in NOLA. From what I can tell, the ones in NOLA look just like the ones in Houston. Houston and NOLA seem to be the northern limit for them on the Gulf Coast, definitely a step down in hardiness when compared to queen palms. Established P. roebelenii survive an occasional dip into the low 20s, which makes it a low end 9b palm imo.  

In retrospect I don't necessarily think it's so strange that they failed...it must have been the duration of the freezes up in Natchez. While low temps there tend to be very similar to outer areas of Baton Rouge, it is 75 miles north and the Gulf has less influence overall during the colder months. So while the temperature in freezes may be moderated by the river-adjacency and urban heat island, overall temps are a few degrees colder and freezes last more hours. I am tending to chalk up roebelenii's tenderness there to that factor since nothing else makes sense. Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing it planted in Baton Rouge, so perhaps you are right that it is pretty much limited to NOLA and Houston and southward. Though I have to say that all the roebelenii in New Orleans must have looked as mine did, after the 2018 winter when it hit 19F in the warmest urban heat island areas of the city. Ouch! 

[Eric in Orlando]

Long duration in the low 20sF and multiple freezes will kill them. Almost all of them were wiped out in Orlando/Central FL after the record 12/89 freezes; 2 nights near 20f with many hours below 25 and a high barely above freezing between the 2 cold nights. The same cold killed lots of citrus and queen palms.

 

 

[mnorell]

Eric, those temps you site are even worse than the threshold that killed the specimens I tried in Natchez over the years. Have you by chance noticed a difference in material you've sourced from Homestead/Miami vs. central Florida growers? In terms of hardiness, and/or in physical appearance? Plants at HD in New Orleans, for example, all seem to be sourced from the Homestead/Redlands growers. I wonder if it might be that Central Florida is mostly supplied by local growers with perhaps more cold-selected genetics, and that Miami-sourced plants rarely make their way into gardens north of, say, Palm Beach County (or just get sent out of state to the southeastern big box stores). I am always curious about the weird and often conflicting reports regarding hardiness for specimens of this species. (Of course that's assuming they are even "mostly" the species, despite the predisposition of Phoenix to hybridize with anybody in the genus...)

[NickJames]

The specimen at my childhood home in Jacksonville, FL (planted by my mother sometime in the mid 90s) has survived down to 20 degrees. It also was in the ground on a night when the official low was 17 in Jacksonville in January 2003 but it is not clear what the actual temperature was at the house (I added a weather station after that point). I know that sounds hard to believe, but it’s true!

 

Flash forward many years later, I lost a specimen at my home in Fernandina Beach, FL during the only freeze of the 2017-2018 season. I had planned to wrap it but was out of town. My plane got in late, by the time I got home at 3 am, we had bottomed out to 26 degrees. It died within a couple weeks. 
 

ironically, my mother does virtually nothing to her palms (while I do EVERYTHING haha). She has massive queen palms as well that are some of the best specimens I’ve ever observed in NEFL. She has only lost one palm ever, a queen palm that was struck by lightning (the tree split right down the middle and was laying in a smoking heap on the ground, truly bizarre looking).

[Eric in Orlando]

On 1/10/2020 at 5:36 PM, mnorell said:

Eric, those temps you site are even worse than the threshold that killed the specimens I tried in Natchez over the years. Have you by chance noticed a difference in material you've sourced from Homestead/Miami vs. central Florida growers? In terms of hardiness, and/or in physical appearance? Plants at HD in New Orleans, for example, all seem to be sourced from the Homestead/Redlands growers. I wonder if it might be that Central Florida is mostly supplied by local growers with perhaps more cold-selected genetics, and that Miami-sourced plants rarely make their way into gardens north of, say, Palm Beach County (or just get sent out of state to the southeastern big box stores). I am always curious about the weird and often conflicting reports regarding hardiness for specimens of this species. (Of course that's assuming they are even "mostly" the species, despite the predisposition of Phoenix to hybridize with anybody in the genus...)

No, the only difference I have noticed are hybrids are more cold hardy. I have never seen hybrids mixed in with P. roebelenii in 3/5/7gal specimens at nurseries and garden centers. But I see them in local landscapes.

[Reeverse]

On 1/10/2020 at 5:36 PM, mnorell said:

Eric, those temps you site are even worse than the threshold that killed the specimens I tried in Natchez over the years. Have you by chance noticed a difference in material you've sourced from Homestead/Miami vs. central Florida growers? In terms of hardiness, and/or in physical appearance? Plants at HD in New Orleans, for example, all seem to be sourced from the Homestead/Redlands growers. I wonder if it might be that Central Florida is mostly supplied by local growers with perhaps more cold-selected genetics, and that Miami-sourced plants rarely make their way into gardens north of, say, Palm Beach County (or just get sent out of state to the southeastern big box stores). I am always curious about the weird and often conflicting reports regarding hardiness for specimens of this species. (Of course that's assuming they are even "mostly" the species, despite the predisposition of Phoenix to hybridize with anybody in the genus...)

Most of Central Florida nurseries/ Garden centers get their material from Homestead too 

[Merlyn]

I've seen quite a few clear hybrids in local landscapes.  There's one on my bike riding route that has leaves that are sorta similar to Roebellini, but the trunk is about twice as thick as normal.  I'm guessing it's a Roebellini-Reclinata hybrid or something along those lines.  It's extremely slow growing, but probably doesn't get fertilizer or any supplemental water...and the property owners overprune the hell out of it.  It went through freezes in 2010 with no damage, and had no problem with the 1 hour 25F dip in January 2018.  Here's the plant for reference:

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.7129373,-81.3814458,3a,75y,139.88h,77.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxDpZzdZ_lkkStx0TJljaNA!2e0!5s20161101T000000!7i13312!8i6656

[sonoranfans]

P. Roebelinii are commonly grown in 9a arizona.  I had several when I was out there and all in the open were killed to the ground with a relatively brief freeze with a 21F low.  Within 4 hrs of the low it was ~50F so it was brief compared to the typical humid subropical freeze event.   They were established for 4-5 years at the time and all came back FROM UNDERGROUND.  the trunks died but new grow points came up.  My (4) bismarckia were all defoliated to spears and one(small 3') of those died.  I think with this species it is quite cold hardy once established, similar but perhaps a touch less than bismarckia.  Defoliation is another matter, they will defoliate well before bismarckia.  But defoliation does not define survivability or hardiness.  My roebelinii's were planted near the pool out in the open so there was some passive solar ground effect.   I had a couple roebelinii  in shade that were hardly burned so canopy was a huge effect, probably 5 degrees or more in the desert.  If I were planting one of these in a marginal mountain desert climate, I'd plant it near a big rock and give it a bit of little canopy.

[Zoltan]

I’m in Jacksonville fl usda 9a in fact I’m at Oceanway so it’s pretty north . I never had to consider of Pygmy palm.they get touch if noting above but my got so tall it’s reaching the roof on the house. I think they are totally fine and relatively growing fast especially if they are at sunny side.Only thing I don’t like the needles. But I trim them w protection gloves.Honestly very simple to grow I never had any issue w them.Somethimes I even forgot that they all around and pull trough cold pretty well.. 

Zoltan

[Matthew92]

Visiting Tampa right now. Interestingly I've seen some brown Phoenix roebelenni's even just north on the outskirts of Tampa.

[kinzyjr]

6 minutes ago, Matthew92 said:

Visiting Tampa right now. Interestingly I've seen some brown Phoenix roebelenni's even just north on the outskirts of Tampa.

The temperatures during cold snaps drop off really fast as you get north of Tampa and then east of I-75.  The box in the graphic below is an area where the damage is usually the worst.  The damage to Phoenix roebelenii in the area was pretty bad during the January 2022 cold snap, with some fatalities.

[Brad Mondel]

Does this look like a hybrid? The fronds are more upright than arching. Perhaps shade grown? 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 1/10/2020 at 4:36 PM, mnorell said:

Eric, those temps you site are even worse than the threshold that killed the specimens I tried in Natchez over the years. Have you by chance noticed a difference in material you've sourced from Homestead/Miami vs. central Florida growers? In terms of hardiness, and/or in physical appearance? Plants at HD in New Orleans, for example, all seem to be sourced from the Homestead/Redlands growers. I wonder if it might be that Central Florida is mostly supplied by local growers with perhaps more cold-selected genetics, and that Miami-sourced plants rarely make their way into gardens north of, say, Palm Beach County (or just get sent out of state to the southeastern big box stores). I am always curious about the weird and often conflicting reports regarding hardiness for specimens of this species. (Of course that's assuming they are even "mostly" the species, despite the predisposition of Phoenix to hybridize with anybody in the genus...)

I think the same in regards to Coconut Palms.  Ones grown from parent trees in Central Florida, I honestly think are at least somewhat more cold hardy than ones from parent trees in the Miami/Homestead/Keys area, or from seed nuts shipped from Jamaican.

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

12 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Does this look like a hybrid? The fronds are more upright than arching. Perhaps shade grown? 

Looks like a roebellinii to me.  Like you said, maybe shade or semi shade grown, accounting for the leaf structure.

John

[Phoenikakias]

16 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Does this look like a hybrid? The fronds are more upright than arching. Perhaps shade grown? 

Check for tiny hooklets along the midrib on the backside of the leaflets. The more of them, the more the chances of it being pure.

Roebelenii hybrids do bear also those hooklets but not that many

Here are examples of reclinata x roebelenii and roebelenii x theophrasti

[Brad Mondel]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:42 AM, Phoenikakias said:

Check for tiny hooklets along the midrib on the backside of the leaflets. The more of them, the more the chances of it being pure.

Roebelenii hybrids do bear also those hooklets but not that many

Here are examples of reclinata x roebelenii and roebelenii x theophrasti

Thank you for the reply. I do see the little specks on the underside of the fronds. We'll see if the fronds change over the summer as I have them in sun now. 

[sonoranfans]

In arizona cold snap in 2007 I had roebelinii experience 21F wide out in the open and they looked dead, no green left.  But by 10 am temps were almost 40F.  In a radiative cold snap for 6-7 hrs below freezing any roebelinii plant in the open died back to stumps.  But within 2 years they had totally recovered.  They have a subterranean trunk which allows the to come back from total defoliation and looking dead.  Not sure how far that goes in terms of low temps but a radiative cold event that warms more rapidly like out west will get the best survival minimums.  You cpi;d also add a little tolerance by a space blanket around the roots in a radiative event as it will keep soil warm longer.

[richtrav]

This looks like a pair of hybrid roebelenii growing in San Benito TX.

[Rain52]

Pic of my pigmy’s, we got down to 28 Xmas freeze 2022 at Jax beach with no damage. Not been below 22 here since 1989.  Pic taken a few years back prob a foot taller now. Taller ones quite numerous at the beaches. 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

Are stout yellow spines another indicator of hybridization? There’s one in my neighborhood that is like this and the leaves are not unusual at first glance but may present some variation.

Also i might have found a naturally suckering group of roebs too. I’ll post pics if anyone is curious.