Why there are no palms in cold climates?

[Arecal]

Hello everyone, I live in cold region (Petrozavodsk, Russia, 4a) and I love palms, but can't plant them outdoors, and I'm wondering)
Actually I'm quite shocked that even the hardiest palms such as Trachycarpus, Sabal, Rhapidophyllum etc. don't tolerate harsh frosts and survive only in warmer regions. Why no palms are adapted to grow even in warmer temperate climates such as Central Russia, New England or Great Lakes region? There are cold climate large monocots, for example - there are bamboos in Russian Far East, Hokkaido and North Korea which are cold in winter. Though these are not as large as soe tropical species, at least Sasa kurilensis grows up to 70-250 cm high, and forms dense jungle on Kuril, Sakhalin and Hokkaido islands.. and it's hardiness zone is 4b). There are some more hardy bamboos, some are even larger than Sasa..

 

Why there are no palms in such cold regions? And is it possible for palm to evolve and adapt to them (hi, speculative evolution))))?

[Meangreen94z]

Because they adapted to the conditions of their climate resulting in them becoming palms? The hardiest palms are typically low lying. Again because they adapted to a climate with a broader range of temperatures. Plants that evolved hundreds of millions of years ago in cooler climates developed features that benefited their climate. No different than plants in the desert.

[richnorm]

Great question.  I don't have an answer though!  I suppose, as you point out, some monocots did evolve to truly cold conditions so the Order is represented even if the Class is not.  Having an above ground growing point, long reproductive cycle  and inability to go dormant will limit the spread of palms, for now at least.  

[RedRabbit]

It’s always struck me on my flights to Asia how such a vast area of the arctic is totally barren. On my last trip I flew from Detroit to Seoul and there was just nothing across Canada, Alaska, Russia. Thousands of miles of tundra... My point is, there’s a northern limit for everything. Palms are just further south than say spruce, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Edited January 15, 2020 by RedRabbit

[James B]

There may well have been palms in Russia once upon a time. Fossil records show palms go back at least 85 million years placing them in the Cretaceous period. The earth used to be much hotter before the earth axis became more tilted which creates seasons and winter something that did not exist for billions of years and is a relatively new trend when looking at the earth’s timeline. Even going back 80-100 million years ago the entire planet was basically Indonesia where global average temps were much higher and as well as the oceans and seas. Half the western USA was once underwater. Even the North Pole was basically Florida and the fossil record shows all types of reptiles once living there. As the planet cooled the ideal climate for palms shifted closer and closer to the equator. Global warming would have to raise average temps a loooooong way before we would recreate the environment when palms first evolved. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by James B

[Australovenator]

Hello everyone, i'm new too.
Cretaceous actually wasn't all tropical hothouse, it had fluctuating climate. If you're wondering, Eocene was a tropical hothouse episode, but that isn't the point.

3 hours ago, James B said:

There may well have been palms in Russia once upon a time.

There are some today, in Southern Russia, though they are introduced, and there are fossils of palms in Russia (mostly from Miocene), but that isn't the point, too.

I still don't know the answer, and I think it is possible for cold climate palm to evolve in future (or it could have been there in past), though it will likely be a low-lying, shrub-like and will probably have it's growing point underground. Is this "palm shrub" plausible?

 

 

[Meangreen94z]

Yes, Sabal Minor and Serenoa Repens are low lying and among the hardiest Palms there are.

[Dartolution]

Unfortunately at times (for those palm enthusiasts like ourselves) thats the way biodiversity works. 

Plants, and animals, adapt to their environment overtime. Those plants, and animals that are not able to adapt to change perish. 

Selective evolution does happen through human intervention, and has for quite a long time. Take any fruit or vegetable for example, none of the most commonly available fruits and vegetables looked or for that matter tasted the way they do today as they did hundreds of years ago. Through selection humans have created what they deem to be desirable traits in these plants. 

So, to answer your question, yes palms most certainly can be selected for traits that are desirable to growers and crossed with like traits. Though, this process is much more time consuming in palm trees as it is say, in beans due to the age of maturity of which the palm can be crossed with more desirable traits, and the time it takes to assess what plants even possess the traits someone is looking for. I imagine it would be a multi generation project to create more cold tolerate / adapted palms. 

 

 

[kinzyjr]

@Arecal Welcome to the forums!  You could spin the question around and ask why there aren't tulips in South Florida.  Just as palms have their limits for growth and naturalization, other plants have climate limits.  Other adaptations, such as drought resistance, often come at the expense of making the plant unfit for areas with high rainfall and humidity. 

Actually, some of the more interesting threads on the forums are about growing palms outside of their typical climate regimes.  Some of the topics that pique my interest are the continuing experimentation with coconuts in mild Mediterranean climates, growing palms from arid regions in areas with high rainfall and humidity (in particular, Washingtonia filifera and various Brahea sp.), and growing temperate palms in areas with year-round heat (Trachycarpus, Jubaea, etc.).

That said, @Rickybobby continues to put on a clinic when it comes to growing palms indoors and you might be interested in doing that.

[Arecal]

11 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Just as palms have their limits for growth and naturalization, other plants have climate limits. 

I noticed that in my home Russia, for example - Sochi (zone 9a, warm subtropical) has palms and everything, but there are no plants from northern Russia such as place where I live. The limit always seems to exist..
But still, I see no problems for a low-lying palm "shrub" to adapt to climate like one on Kuril Islands or Hokkaido (Wakkanai has suitable climate I think, I don't know but it is possible that some palms grow there, planted by someone).. 
I thought a lot about it and I just created a fictional palm species) Can I post it there?

Edited January 16, 2020 by Arecal

[awkonradi]

I think it's important to consider competition.  Maybe palms that could freeze solid for months are "biologically possible", but if these were not competitive with other plants in the same environment, then they would not be viable.

Edited January 16, 2020 by awkonradi

[Silas_Sancona]

Many great and valid points shared here.. the most important, from a personal perspective, revolve around both evolution and potential competition.. At the same time.. for me at least, it raises an interesting question or two..

Of all the major plant families, as far as what is known, Palms are one of the few which don't contain either a Genus or species that can naturally go deciduous, or in which the foliage can completely desiccate, like numerous Ferns / Mosses only to be revived and continue growth when conditions are right..  or the leaves, entire plant, etc.. contain enough of X chemical compound to withstand months of being frozen.. the natural " Anti-freeze " many plants.. inc. some Palms do possess ( to some degree ) These two or three factors would be crucial to surviving in places like Siberia, and most places in the Arctic.

As an interesting side note, it is thought that several plant Genera/species that currently only grow in some more "tropical" locations may have acquired various adaptations to their current environment not as they spread out of the tropics.. but in more northerly locations, retaining those adaptations as they were forced south by a cooling climate at the time..

Agree that, in such places, the ideal "Palm" would likely be a low growing, ground-hugging sort of thing.. slowly creeping along the ground over time.. similar to Saw Palmetto, but perhaps even flatter. Trunks themselves might even be flatter, more oval shaped than rounded in profile, perhaps flexible. Leaf Crowns might grow at an angle rather than in a 360deg circle. which would allow them to lie down against the ground easier, thus, less likely to be damaged as snow covers them during the winters. Can't imagine anything that attained very much vertical height being able to survive the constant weight of Snow and/or Ice repeatedly throughout it's life time, esp. if it had larger fronds.. unless of course it dropped all it's leaves each year.  Imagine going somewhere to see the palms change color, like Maples, each year..

As far as "selecting" something that could withstand such a brutal climate, possible, but highly unlikely to happen in one person's lifetime.. Think about Corn and how many thousands of years it was raised before the currently important "selections/ races".. or what ever you might call it were selected.. Add to this it has only been a couple decades that it was discovered that one could create "Perennial Corn" by crossing "Corn" with a wild ancestor.  Because various programs are still tinkering with things like making perennial corn more cold hardy, It will likely be several years before anyone is trialing it, even though there are tremendous potential advantages in cultivating it vs. traditional selections.. 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Silas_Sancona
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[hbernstein]

That world distribution map depict? Certainly doesn't show the complete distribution of the Palm family worldwide. There are many areas that are unshaded where palm species are naturally found, e.g. Mediterranean basin.

[NorCalKing]

5 hours ago, hbernstein said:

That world distribution map depict? Certainly doesn't show the complete distribution of the Palm family worldwide. There are many areas that are unshaded where palm species are naturally found, e.g. Mediterranean basin.

Exactly my thought. I guess the map maker completely missed almost the entire west coast of NA. hehe

[PalmTreeDude]

Good question, just the map is wrong if it is ment to show the distribution of palms worldwide. 

[Brad Mondel]

Palm fronds have a large surface area which means the cold winter winds essentially freeze dry them. I bet a palm with very thick fronds and epicuticular wax with an underground stem would do best. Sabal minor and Rhapidophyllum have some of these traits but no thick epicuticular wax to prevent desiccation. Someone needs to cross a Sabal uresana and a Sabal minor! 

[Arecal]

Map is a map of bamboos, not palms!

Still asking the question - can I post my fictional palm species there? And also - can palms be deciduous?

[Alberto]

On 1/16/2020 at 2:19 PM, hbernstein said:

That world distribution map depict? Certainly doesn't show the complete distribution of the Palm family worldwide. There are many areas that are unshaded where palm species are naturally found, e.g. Mediterranean basin.

...and Astralia/NZ

[UK_Palms]

Certainly not native, but the furthest from the equator that you will see big palm trees is in the UK for sure, specifically in southern England at 50-51N. Some real monsters getting established here now and setting viable seed...

Also goes to show their adaptability and survival capabilities. They will no doubt spread and become naturalised even further north in the coming decades due to climate change. So there is no doubt that palms are present in cooler climates, just not native to those environments. But again, they are becoming naturalised far outside of their natural range and this trend will certainly continue, as it has throughout history, with or without human interference... 

Generally speaking, palms are tropical by nature, thus originating close to the equator. It is only since the last ice age that they have been able to extend further north, which will be further helped by global warming in the coming years. Even stuff like Phoenix Dactylifera and Washingtonia Filifera are now growing far outside their natural range in cooler, wetter climates such as England where the climate is gradually transitioning from temperate oceanic to warm summer Mediterranean...

[tropicbreeze]

21 hours ago, Arecal said:

Map is a map of bamboos, not palms!

Still asking the question - can I post my fictional palm species there? And also - can palms be deciduous?

To be pedantic, the map's not exactly correct for bamboo distribution.

On this forum there's often posts about palms that lose their fronds in a freeze but then recover. Probably more a matter of being brought to the brink of death and then growing again when it warms up. But who's to say that wouldn't eventually evolve into being deciduous, given time.

[Arecal]

Well..
I'll post my fictional palm species a couple of days later.. I can't post it now.