Cycas debaoensis help

[Keys6505]

Hi all,

New to the site, was hoping someone could help me out.  I recently planted a Cycas Debaoensis in my front yard and it's not doing well at all.  It's been in the ground for about 2 months now and I've lost 2 of the 4 fronds.  Both have broken but neither were during any of the pretty strong storms we've had, just random days where I came home and a frond would be laying on the ground.  It gets about 5 hours direct sun.  When I bought it from the nursery I thought it was in a spot where it was already getting a few hours of sun so I didn't acclimate it.  Looking back there may be a chance I was wrong, but if it was a sun issue I think I would have seen damage right away whereas the damage occurred a few weeks in.  It gets watered via sprinkler 3 days a week and it's in a raised bed consisting of what I believe to be compost/maybe something else that's several years old (I didn't build the bed).  It was fertilized recently with Palmgain but that's after the fronds were already broken.  The one frond broke at a point where it looks like it may have been scored by the spikes of one of the other fronds.  Any help would be appreciated!!  Thanks

[Merlyn]

I'm not too familiar with Debaoensis (or the semi-related species that are sold as Debaoensis), but I have a similar type called Simplicipinna.  My first thought is you have sunburn and it's planted too deep.  Generally you never want to bury the entire caudex, even with a tropical cycad like Debao.  Burying the caudex can cause rot.  See this photo for reference, the growing point and bases of the fronds are all above ground:

The damage does look like it could be mechanical, i.e. it was bent during transport or planting but not enough to snap the frond.  When I bought my Simplicipinna with similar-sized fronds I tied the 6 fronds together near the tops and laid the whole thing flat on the floor of my panel van.  So there was no chance of bending or breaking the long fronds or the stems.

[Darold Petty]

Keys6505, I can't offer any help about your cycad, but Welcome To Palmtalk !  

[Tracy]

On 6/13/2020 at 5:27 PM, Keys6505 said:

It gets about 5 hours direct sun.  When I bought it from the nursery I thought it was in a spot where it was already getting a few hours of sun so I didn't acclimate it.  Looking back there may be a chance I was wrong, but if it was a sun issue I think I would have seen damage right away whereas the damage occurred a few weeks in.  It gets watered via sprinkler 3 days a week and it's in a raised bed consisting of what I believe to be compost/maybe something else that's several years old (I didn't build the bed).  It was fertilized recently with Palmgain but that's after the fronds were already broken.

Welcome to PalmTalk Keys 6505.  I'm less concerned about the depth of the planting if that is how it was the depth in the pot when you bought it but there could be some rot issues occurring on the ones with the yellowed rachis or some damage you didn't notice from the wind. You mentioned 5 hours of sun, which depending on the time of day shouldn't be a problem in my experience with this species.  I have 3 in the ground, and the fastest of the three gets the most sun (am through mid-day overhead sun), versus the two that are in places where they get fewer hours of sun.  Wind damage can be an issue with some of the longer leafed Cycas just because they can get whipped around if in highly exposed positions, but I've only seen that once and not on one of my plants and in an extreme wind event for California.  Does the soil stay wet all the time with the irrigation 3 days a week?  Most cycad rot problems are from having the caudex wet all the time.  I mentioned that I'm not worried about the planting depth as two of my 3 have completely subterranean caudex, with only the largest female having any caudex above the soil.   During the summer, mine normally get watered twice a week, with two growing in very fast draining sandy soil and one growing in a much slower growing clay soil.  The one in clay soil is the one that typically only holds one leaf at a time, while the ones in the faster draining sandy soil always hold at least 3 leaves and sometimes as many as 8 (two flushes).  That experience would indicate to me that they seem to like the faster draining soil.  Bottom line, you may want to adjust the watering schedule based on how your soil drains.  Dig down a little way away from the caudex where there are no roots you will damage and see what the soil looks like a couple of inches down, specifically looking at whether its soggy or draining.

The good news is that if your issue was acclimation or wind, you just have to be patient and wait for the next flush.  Good luck.  Maybe someone else with this species in Texas can share some additional experience.

[Keys6505]

Resurrecting this thread for a new question.  The Debaoensis was heavily protected during our 15 degree arctic blast in Feb, but shortly after uncovering the leaves turned crispy and snapped off in the wind.  The remaining 2 petioles are still partially green towards the caudex though.  It hasn't put out a flush in the year that I've had it.  My wife is usually pretty understanding with my plant obsession, but this one is right in front of our house dead center to the window and she has formally requested a relocation.  Is moving this in its current state a death sentence?  I know some stated in the earlier posts that it may be too deep, can I use this as an opportunity to plant it a little shallower even though this was the depth it was in the nursery pot?  Any help would be appreciated.

[Palm Tree Jim]

At this point, you may have nothing to lose by moving it.

Perhaps potting it up with some good cycad mix and you will also have the chance to check the root system.

If it was my cycas, I would pot it up. And you keep the wife happy!

Good luck.

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, Palm Tree Jim said:

At this point, you may have nothing to lose by moving it.

Perhaps potting it up with some good cycad mix and you will also have the chance to check the root system.

If it was my cycas, I would pot it up. And you keep the wife happy!

Good luck.

I'll second that motion Jim... do we have quorum to vote?

[Firepalm]

Yeah I agree with the other opinions.  Time to pot it up and see how the caudex looks.  Like Jim said, really no downside at this point.  These plants are pretty resilient so hopefully yours is fine and will recover in the pot where you can better control the conditions, sunlight, water, soil mix, etc.

[Keys6505]

Thanks all.   I'll be digging her up tomorrow.   Any recommendations as to what you are using for a cycad potting mix?  Not much coming up in the search here.

[Merlyn]

My mix for cycads and palms is the same, roughly an equal parts mix of generic topsoil, perlite, and Turface MVP.  For desert types I use 10-20% soil and mostly inorganics.  The debao that I bought from CBLisa were in a reasonably rich soil mix and growing well, even here in swampy FL.  So I suspect they would be ok there with a sorta "standard" well draining palm mix.

[Keys6505]

Got rained out today, but one last question: how root sensitive are these?  Can I clean all of the soil off to get a clear picture of what I'm working with or do I have to leave the root ball mostly intact as I move it into the pot?  If I was going to clean it I would typically just use a spray/shower nozzle on the hose to wash away the dirt without having to risk damaging any more roots.

[Merlyn]

Rinsing off the dirt with a light pressure spray, like a typical "shower" mode on a hose sprayer, should work fine.  It would be a good way to check for rot in the caudex or root system.  I just dug up this E. Natalensis x Trispinosus because it was looking pretty forlorn.  The entire root system was squishy and rotten after I washed it off, all the way up into the base of the caudex.  I should have dug mine up 2 months ago when it was just starting to look bad.  But I was too busy ripping up the entire front yard for a new septic drainfield. 

So that's an example of what it should NOT look like.    White roots, and a firm caudex and main tap root is what you want. 

[Keys6505]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

Rinsing off the dirt with a light pressure spray, like a typical "shower" mode on a hose sprayer, should work fine.  It would be a good way to check for rot in the caudex or root system.  I just dug up this E. Natalensis x Trispinosus because it was looking pretty forlorn.  The entire root system was squishy and rotten after I washed it off, all the way up into the base of the caudex.  I should have dug mine up 2 months ago when it was just starting to look bad.  But I was too busy ripping up the entire front yard for a new septic drainfield. 

So that's an example of what it should NOT look like.    White roots, and a firm caudex and main tap root is what you want. 

Got it, thanks!  Are you trimming off the dead stuff or just repotting as is?

[Merlyn]

In my case the entire root system was rotted, all the way up into the caudex.  It's probably dead.  Here's the beheaded photo.  I peeled off a couple of the old lower leaf bases and there are two white roots trying to grow out from the perimeter.  But I doubt it'll make roots or regrow with the entire center rotted out.

[Keys6505]

On 5/1/2021 at 7:53 AM, Merlyn said:

In my case the entire root system was rotted, all the way up into the caudex.  It's probably dead.  Here's the beheaded photo.  I peeled off a couple of the old lower leaf bases and there are two white roots trying to grow out from the perimeter.  But I doubt it'll make roots or regrow with the entire center rotted out.

 

Luckily mine looked a little better than that, however I did a number on the roots not realizing how deep they were.  I didn't really find any mush but I have no idea what the brainy-looking part of the root is.  I replanted in the Turface/perlite/bagged soil mix you mentioned but I left the caudex several inches higher above the soil line than it was.  Do you think I should cover more?  I left it deep enough in the pot so I had room to add more mix if need be.  Last question, what kind of sun exposure do you think it should have for recovery and also taking into account the previously buried caudex is now exposed (if that matters).  Thanks for the help!

[Merlyn]

The brainy-looking things are called "coralloid roots."  They look a bit like brain corals, and are a food source with a symbiotic relationship with cyanobacteria.  Keeping those intact will definitely help the plant, especially if you've severed some of the larger roots.  If I recall correctly the coralloid roots should be covered in dirt.  Personally I would leave it buried as is, since my biggest enemy in swampy Floriduh is rot from excessive water. 

If the caudex and the main root system are all firm and the roots are generally white, then you are in good shape.  In one photo above it looks like one of the 1" diameter roots may be a little rotted or brownish at the end.  That could be just from being severed during the dig.  @Tracy thoughts?

[Tracy]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:06 PM, Merlyn said:

The brainy-looking things are called "coralloid roots."  They look a bit like brain corals, and are a food source with a symbiotic relationship with cyanobacteria.  Keeping those intact will definitely help the plant, especially if you've severed some of the larger roots.  If I recall correctly the coralloid roots should be covered in dirt.  Personally I would leave it buried as is, since my biggest enemy in swampy Floriduh is rot from excessive water. 

If the caudex and the main root system are all firm and the roots are generally white, then you are in good shape.  In one photo above it looks like one of the 1" diameter roots may be a little rotted or brownish at the end.  That could be just from being severed during the dig.  @Tracy thoughts?

I haven't had to dig up many cycads and only lost a few to rot over the years, but I'm in a pretty dry climate.  Since the coralloid roots are still intact, definitely keep them that way.  I actually see the coralloid roots pop up at the surface both in close proximity to my cycads and in some cases a few feet away from any, so that I don't actually know which plant they are attached to.  I would encourage you not to plant the coralloid roots too deep, keeping them close to the soil line as that is where I typically see them (or more commonly at the surface above soil line).

 

On 5/2/2021 at 1:48 PM, Keys6505 said:

Last question, what kind of sun exposure do you think it should have for recovery and also taking into account the previously buried caudex is now exposed (if that matters).

Based on your location, I assume you get pretty hot as well as humid on the gulf coast.  I would be inclined to error on the drier side for watering and give it am sun and avoid late mid-day to late afternoon sun while it is trying to recover.  It will get plenty of heat and with your humidity, will take longer to dry out than what I'm accustom to here in Southern California.  Good luck and let us know how it does over time.  Roots need to recover first then it can put the energy into a flush, so be patient.

[Keys6505]

Thank you both!  

[Keys6505]

Soooo, this is a good sign, right?  The last two petioles that were holding green turned brown immediately after transplant but just noticed this today.

[Merlyn]

Looks great!  Even if it's a bit shorter than the old fronds, if it grows out healthy and green that's a great sign.  I have an E. Kisambo that's been looking continually worse and worse over the past two months, with leaflets yellowing and it looking just generally bad.  Today it has 2 new fronds flushing.  So hopefully you'll get two good fronds out of this flush, and it'll be on its way to full recovery!

[Keys6505]

Tadaa!  Wanted to thank you all for your help.

[Merlyn]

Woohoo!   Looks great!  I'd keep it in partial PM shade to make sure it roots in fully over the summer.  My Debao here in FL have taken full sun well, so a lot of sun there should be okay after it roots in.

[Palm Tree Jim]

Great to see!