cold-hardy palms Zone 8A, Other Than Pindo and Chamerops?

[BamaPalmer]

As my 40 years of living draws to a conclusion, in SE Florida, I want to assure that my final 1/3rd of this life is still as palmy as possibly.  I will grow Pindo and Euro. Fan Palms, but when I live in Central Alabama, USA beginning next Spring, what are a few other palm species that I might wish to try?  I have heard a few bad tales of warning from Zone 8A nurserymen about failed Medjool landscape attempts, Chinese Fan palm growing attempts and culture really bad growing Washingtonia robusta attempts, but I have heard nothing about "Mule" palms, Chilean Fan palm, and/or other promising palm hybrids that COULD be a "go" (if even available) for the Gulf South USA.  Who might be able to encourage about other possibilities??   Hopefully, some of y'all have some great newws to share with a "Southern neophyte" like me!  Many thanks, in advance!  Andy.

[Manalto]

Hi Andy,

I live in Alabama too. You mean we die at 60 here? Holy moly!

Chilean wine Palm is a no-go in our heat and humidity (I'm in Mobile, Heat and Humidity Central.) Pindo is reliable, Sabal palmetto and Sabal minor. Needle Palm should be fine. Check the threads here, especially discussions about the southeast. Sometimes things will do well (Chilean wine palm, for example) in the cool Pacific Northwest 8a, and not in our steambath conditions.

ETA: Oops! Now I see you've got pindo right there in the title. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Manalto

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Nannorhorps, many sabals, trithrinax, many trachycarpus, guihaia, Washingtonia filifera, brahea moorei and more will work.  

[JLM]

You can get a silver queen palm and a mule palm at Mule Palms of Mississippi (MPOM). Prices are kinda hefty if your looking to go cheap, but cold tolerant hybrids will be expensive anyways. Im not so sure how the silver queen palms actually do but i hear they can take teens fairly well, atleast upper teens.

[Allen]

I don't think the mule hybrids will survive in 8A long term.  But you never know.  it's a gamble

[BamaPalmer]

Thanks for the response folks!  I guess that I should stick with the Butias outside, and the Holy Grail palms from the tropics in my new greenhouse!  Andy

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

No queen or mule will live in 8a alabama as they won't live in colder 8a/8b texas areas

[Allen]

I would go Trachycarpus Fortunei or wagnerianus, Sabal minor, Sabal Birmingham, Sabal brazoria, Needle palms,  and Sabal Palmetto primarily with a Butia thrown in if it were me.  Those should all go without protection pretty much once established.  Pretty much everything on my list in 7A except I have to protect some of those.  

Edited July 7, 2020 by Allen

[Manalto]

9 hours ago, BamaPalmer said:

Thanks for the response folks!  I guess that I should stick with the Butias outside...

But we've just listed a bunch that will be fine outdoors. European fan palm is now off the list?

Nice to have a greenhouse!

[CodyORB]

Speaking of Chamaerops, perhaps go for the “cerifera” variety for your best shot at a silvery-blue fan palm in 8A. It’s speculated they may have a few more precious degrees of hardiness over the regular as well!

[BamaPalmer]

That is all fantastic information, my fellow palm friends!  I will definitely be conservative outside.  The greenhouse wasn't an option; if I couldn't get one, I would stay in So. Fla. with its high taxes and crowded roads.  I wasn't really considering any other area in Fla. because the property taxes from the Ala. side of the border to the Fla. side of the border was 5x the amount plus I cannot believe the house we got for the price on 1/2 acre, in Ala.!  A photo is below.  (HOUSES: FUTURE ON LEFT; CURRENT ON RIGHT.)  It's really beautiful and incredibly well-built.  30 years in one home is plenty, especially in Broward County, where you don't just get new neighbours every five years, you get totally new nations and customs.  I like change but at a certain age, sameness IS comforting.  Anyway, folks thanks so much for all your help and comments.  They are all deeply appreciated.  Andy.

[Dartolution]

2 hours ago, CodyORB said:

Speaking of Chamaerops, perhaps go for the “cerifera” variety for your best shot at a silvery-blue fan palm in 8A. It’s speculated they may have a few more precious degrees of hardiness over the regular as well!

Hi @BamaPalmer I too am in 8a southcentral alabama, about 35 miles south of Birmingham. 

While I cant speak for the cerifera variety of chamaerops, I do have several green forms (from BB store blue pot specials), that overwintered extremely well during our last very wet cool winter. The lowest they got exposed to was around 20F, and it basically rained for a solid 2 months. No rot, or decline. I did protect them with cheap green frost cloth from lowes for a few months, but toward the end of January and beginning of February, I didn't bother to, and I noticed no issue with that temp and rainfall. Mine have been in the ground now for about a year and a half, so time will tell. 

There are however lots of Trachys,  Sabals (palmetto and minors), needle palms,  and some Washingtonias, and Butias around my area. 

 

[kinzyjr]

4 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

Hi @BamaPalmer I too am in 8a southcentral alabama, about 35 miles south of Birmingham. 

While I cant speak for the cerifera variety of chamaerops, I do have several green forms (from BB store blue pot specials), that overwintered extremely well during our last very wet cool winter. The lowest they got exposed to was around 20F, and it basically rained for a solid 2 months. No rot, or decline. I did protect them with cheap green frost cloth from lowes for a few months, but toward the end of January and beginning of February, I didn't bother to, and I noticed no issue with that temp and rainfall. Mine have been in the ground now for about a year and a half, so time will tell. 

There are however lots of Trachys,  Sabals (palmetto and minors), needle palms,  and some Washingtonias, and Butias around my area. 

 

There was a Chamaerops on Maxwell AFB way back when.  Not sure if it is still there or not.

[Dartolution]

No idea, but you can find Chammy's, Butias and Trachys all over that area, and Prattville at gas stations and fast food parking lots haha. They are pretty common in that area. 

There are some beautiful blue butias in Prattville at some old closed restaurant. I forget which road. 

[Dartolution]

Decided to take some pictures of the Cham's in the yard. 

Here are mine:

Smallest:

 

 

Medium Sized Chammy:

 

.

 

and my largest that I've had for about 4 years:

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

4 hours ago, CodyORB said:

Speaking of Chamaerops, perhaps go for the “cerifera” variety for your best shot at a silvery-blue fan palm in 8A. It’s speculated they may have a few more precious degrees of hardiness over the regular as well!

Cerifera will die in bad winters in central Alabama unless you pour tons of daconil on them. Even though they are more cold hardy they are less wet cold hardy and develop fungus that will eventually kill them in bad winters.  A few years ago lots of cerifera died in northern LA but the green ones pulled through. 

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Prattville

Nice Chamaerops you have!  Is that old cotton mill in Prattville still there?

[CodyORB]

20 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Cerifera will die in bad winters in central Alabama unless you pour tons of daconil on them. Even though they are more cold hardy they are less wet cold hardy and develop fungus that will eventually kill them in bad winters.  A few years ago lots of cerifera died in northern LA but the green ones pulled through. 

Woah, thanks for letting us know!

A quick question, does "wet cold" mean rainy cold or just high humidity? If the former, would having a shelter over the palm on rainy days help alleviate the issue?

[Dartolution]

4 hours ago, Fusca said:

Nice Chamaerops you have!  Is that old cotton mill in Prattville still there?

@Fusca Thanks. I am not sure. I don't live in Prattville but its only about 45 mins from me. I don't really know the area all that well.

 

[Fusca]

41 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

@Fusca Thanks. I am not sure. I don't live in Prattville but its only about 45 mins from me. I don't really know the area all that well.

 

If you're ever over that way check it out.  Supposedly the town was built because of the mill which dates pre civil war.  Pretty massive.  If I remember correctly it was still in operation up until the 1990's and is a historic site that the town was trying to preserve.  Probably the last time I was there was in the 90's before I moved to Texas from Tennessee.

[donnacreation]

European fan palms must be well drained, and are slow growers.  I've seen some that are tall here in zone 8a, central SC, but they've been growing for 60 years.  I planted a Mexican Palmetto over 10 years ago and  it still has no trunk, but large fronds.  Regular native sabal palmettos grow much , much faster and are bullet proof..  Pindo pams, when heavily watered, grow much faster than those that aren't.   The fronds are also much bigger and the palm is much more robust .  Pindo palms grown in dappled shade also develop huge fronds  Forget mule palms, unless you want to protect them when temps drop below 20f.  The past 2 winters in SC, as has been reported, were super mild zone 9a /9b winters.  This is very unusual.  You must plant palms in zone 8a that can survive occasional 10F temps.  Global warming at the the North Pole occasionally allows polar vortexes to dip very far South.  3 years ago, SC had a historic prolonged 7 day period of extremely cold air with snow cover.  Pindo palms were almost all severely burnt, and some, even older large specimens, died. Fingers crossed, I don't think this will ever happen again.  Still, I wouldn't invest time and $ in any marginal palm, because they're likely to eventually die in typical zone 8a weather in the damp winters of the SE. I know there are hybrids out there that seem to be able to handle 10 degree temps, but I have none.  Sago cycads are cold hardy in zone 8a, but expect their fronds to get severely fried during cold winters.  Still, they almost always bounce right back.  Of course dwarf palmettos, needle palms, and Windmill palms are fully cold hardy, although I've had Windmills palms grow like crazy for 6-7 yrs and suddenly very slowly begin to die. The emerging fronds start getting smaller and smaller.  When this happens, I know of no way to save them.  It can take years for them to die, but I cut them down when I notice that happening, even if they're still green.  Still I have 8 that have been growing between 7 - 13 yrs, and they look great. The tallest must be at least 10' tall.  This fall, I will cut some lower fronds using an extension electric chain saw. I recommend the old reliable zone 8a palms that are sold at local nurseries and easily available - Sabal Palmettos, Pindo palms, Euro fan palms, Windmills, Sago cycads, and of course needle palms (they get huge in full sun) and dwarf palmettos that are native in the interior SE.  I know this is a palm forum, but other tropical looking plants that are bullet proof and will give your yard a lush tropical look include Japanese loquat, Michelia figo, Fatsia,  pittosporum ( I let mine grow into little trees), cold hardy oleander. Woodlander's red bottlebrush, flamingo flowers, shrimp plant flowers, lantana and lacy  Narhira Mahonia. Good luck with your truly cold hardy palm garden. For what it's worth, I don't consider zone 9a and above to be a truly cold climate.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

It's the rain and cold after the initial severe freeze that is tough on med fans. I even lost several trunks a few winters back. You have to be diligent with the daconil and forget that hydrogen peroxide nonsense everyone talks about. 

[Chester B]

18 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Cerifera will die in bad winters in central Alabama unless you pour tons of daconil on them. Even though they are more cold hardy they are less wet cold hardy and develop fungus that will eventually kill them in bad winters.  A few years ago lots of cerifera died in northern LA but the green ones pulled through. 

Not the same climate here in the PNW but we have wet winters, and in marginal areas this is absolutely true - the green are more hardy.

[Marco67]

My experience is that the green one is the fastest grower compared to Cerifera and Vulcano. The Vulcano is by far the slowest of the three what I have seen. All three start to suffer serious damage below -10 C (14 F) and might lose all their spears and leaves. They are very tough though and come back from their basal suckers. All are very vunerable to rot caused by wet and cold which we have a lot here during winter months. In a zone 8a your best bet would be Trachycarpus by far I think. With the heat you have, Sabal Minor and Needles would be an option. All the others need protection I guess during the coldest periods. Even a Chamaerops is a zone 8b palm in my book. You have the advantage that you have a lot of summer heat but a dead Palm won't come back alive unfortunately during a hot summer.  Having badly damaged palms in spring isn't a pretty site either even if they do survive. I like to leave some margin for very cold winters when I plant something in my garden. It reduces stress during the winter 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Chamaerops is 8a for sure in the south and east US.  Volcano are slow but grow faster than cerifera in the summer for us.  Established green med fans will grow 6-10" trunk each year for us.