Bismarck with weak/droopy fronds

[Palmaholic]

Looking for some wisdom as to why my 2 Bismarcks always seem to have weak/droopy fronds and looks tattered.  The 2 Bismarcks in my yard are in different locations.  Bismarck #1 is in a planter filled with rock and surrounded by grass, concrete and artificial turf.  It grows more quickly then Bismarck #2 but the fronds tend to be more tattered and look worse on Bismarck #1.  Bismarck #2 is planted on a slope with a bowl for water retention.  I am in southern California inland empire (9b - I think) and both palms get irrigated 3 days a week with (4) 4GPH drippers.  Both areas are full sun all day long and drainage is very quick as my soil is full of rock and sand.  The area gets some very windy days from November - April and only light afternoon winds (8-12 MPH) the rest of the year.

Any thoughts on why the old fronds won't hold the fan shape would be greatly appreciated.  One other note about Bismarck #1, just this year, it has three new spears that are unopened.  This is the first year that has happened as both Bismarcks have never had more than 2 unopened spears.

[Merlyn]

Unopened spears is usually a sign of a significant problem, in some previous threads on King palms the theory was either a boron or water deficiency.  It looks like you are in a pretty dry area, maybe they are just not getting enough water?  Let us know what you have been doing for water and fertilizer, maybe someone here has a good idea on what you can do to get the fronds to open right.

[Palmaholic]

Each tree is on (4) 4 GPH drippers at 3 times a week for one hour.  Fertilizing is typically by water soluble soil drench because of the drippers, once every 3 weeks.  I have considered adding more water but I have always been hesitant because the trees have had significant growth, despite the tattered fronds, and I have read that Bismarcks will die if they are overwatered.   I just see so  many pictures of beautiful Bismarcks with full crownshafts and can't figure out why mine look so terrible.

[Palmaholic]

Some further information on my soil conditions. Just soil drenched 2 gallons of water with water soluble fertilizer into the basin around Bismarck #1 and all of the water was gone within 45-60 seconds. Not sure if that is significant. Wondering now if it is not getting enough water due to soil conditions. 

[Palm Tree Jim]

Have you confirmed that the drip emitters are working?

[Palmaholic]

Yes. Checked them all this morning and they all ran this morning for one hour and put out normal amount of water. 

[Merlyn]

What fertilizer are you using?  Does it have micronutrients like Mg, Mn and Boron? 

I haven't heard of Bismarcks dying around here in FL from too much water, but my yard is 100% sand.  We can get 10 inches of rain in a day during a hurricane and never see a pool anywhere in the yard.  If you are in clay I could see root rot being a concern.  For reference, here in swampy FL we get 50-60 inches of rain per year and 70-99% humidity.  My two larger Bismarcks (not trunking yet) have different water amounts but both are happy so far.  One has a pair of 2GPH drippers running 40 minutes every day.  The other is in the middle of my "tropical area" with lots of sprinkler-heads-on-a-stick and gets absolutely drenched every morning.

If your area drains that fast, it may not retain enough water.  Is your soil pure sand, or amended with compost, topsoil or anything else?  Have you checked your soil pH?

[Jim in Los Altos]

2 hours ago, Palmaholic said:

Each tree is on (4) 4 GPH drippers at 3 times a week for one hour.  Fertilizing is typically by water soluble soil drench because of the drippers, once every 3 weeks.  I have considered adding more water but I have always been hesitant because the trees have had significant growth, despite the tattered fronds, and I have read that Bismarcks will die if they are overwatered.   I just see so  many pictures of beautiful Bismarcks with full crownshafts and can't figure out why mine look so terrible.

Mine is in constantly very wet soil year round and I’m in a much cooler climate. Bismarcks LOVE water as long as they don’t sit in standing water. I think you might want to step up your irrigation. 

 

[Frond-friend42]

I'm a newbie to the world of palms so take this with a grain of desert salt but it soils to me like the soil is so bad it does sound like your soil isn't holding any water and that thing is just hanging on for dear life. I'm thinking you need some massive soil amendments. Like big palm tree-sized amendments. 

[Palmaholic]

I am going to try replacing one of the 4 GPH drip emitters with a 17 GPH spot spitter.  It should add a lot more water and  I should be able to drop some slow release fertilizer as well instead of being relegated to water soluble fertilizer.

Any thoughts as to whether I should mulch around the water basin to try to hold some of the moisture and possibly get some nutrients into the soil?

[Oviedo_z10b_lol]

27 minutes ago, Palmaholic said:

I am going to try replacing one of the 4 GPH drip emitters with a 17 GPH spot spitter.  It should add a lot more water and  I should be able to drop some slow release fertilizer as well instead of being relegated to water soluble fertilizer.

Any thoughts as to whether I should mulch around the water basin to try to hold some of the moisture and possibly get some nutrients into the soil?

if memory serves, @sonoranfans previously posted some ground cover advice for you desert dwellers... I believe he suggested rock over mulch, and provided a wonderfully scientific basis which I can absolutely cannot recall. (Correct me if I’m  wrong here)

[Palm Tree Jim]

56 minutes ago, Palmaholic said:

I am going to try replacing one of the 4 GPH drip emitters with a 17 GPH spot spitter.  It should add a lot more water and  I should be able to drop some slow release fertilizer as well instead of being relegated to water soluble fertilizer.

Any thoughts as to whether I should mulch around the water basin to try to hold some of the moisture and possibly get some nutrients into the soil?

Add mulch, as it helps with retention. 

Glad to hear the drip is working and adding the additional water should become evident soon. That's assuming the plant is in need of more H2O and not some thing else.

Keep us updated!

 

[sonoranfans]

17 hours ago, Oviedo_z10b_lol said:

if memory serves, @sonoranfans previously posted some ground cover advice for you desert dwellers... I believe he suggested rock over mulch, and provided a wonderfully scientific basis which I can absolutely cannot recall. (Correct me if I’m  wrong here)

A couple things:  Granite rock will slow the evaporation from the top of the soil much better than mulch in the desert.  The drying of mulch in arid environs defeats decomposition of the mulch and its penetration of the soil column as well, so its just not worth it unless its worked in 4" or more to the soil.  The granite rock works fine, bizzies are not fussy about soil, they grow in lateritic(almost nutrientless) soil on the high plains of madagascar and do fine, they are well adapted to those high drainage soils.   This is why you add sand and possibly perlite to slow draining clay soil, they do want good drainage and a proper dry cycle because root rot is an issue if roots are kept wet.  I grew 4 of these for 6+ years in gilbert AZ, one died due to root rot in winter and it was next to the roses, getting watered every 2 days in winter.  Setting up drippers in the desert is different.  You want~(3-4) 2 gal emitters spaced evenly around the palm root zone and you want to water lower volumes but for longer with the timer and of course water at night.  Fast watering in the desert equals runoff and a wide diameter but shallow wet zone.  I learned this from Rod Anderson on this board(N. Phoenix) and if you saw his yard, well he has grown some great palms.   The longer, slower watering leads to a narrower wet spot with a deeper wetting zone and you want that for palms as having deep roots matters in the desert.  I used to water my 12-14' overall bizzies (4) 2 gallon drippers and do it for 3-4 hrs.  As the bizzie grows move the drippers to the drip line of the crown to stimulate best root growth and ferlilize there too of course.  If you look up drip irrigation sites they will teach you how to water and that depends on soil drainage.  In sand and humid environments a fast watering works fine.  IN my yard I use micro sprinklers as the drainage is quite fast too fast for drippers in many places.  In dry, hot environments with clayish soil, that means smaller drippers spaced around the tree drip line and a longer running irrigatio program.  The simple physics of lateral capillary action vs vertical gravity driven soil peneration rate of different soils.  Soil fluid mechanics determines the best irrigation setup as when capillary action >> gravity penetration, a short duration, high rate watering gives a shallow penetration depth.   You dont want this in the desert as it will make for some sickly palms.  this could be your problem with the "weeping bizzy".  None of mine in gilbert were ever "weepy".

[Palmaholic]

Thanks very much for the great information.  One other question, if I am  watering with 3-4 (2) GPH drippers at the drip line that leaves me with several dry spots around the drip line of the palm so how can I use slow release granular fertilizer if half the surface soil is not getting wet?

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Palmaholic said:

Thanks very much for the great information.  One other question, if I am  watering with 3-4 (2) GPH drippers at the drip line that leaves me with several dry spots around the drip line of the palm so how can I use slow release granular fertilizer if half the surface soil is not getting wet?

You should be able to see the size of the spots after 4 hrs at 2 gallons per 4 drippers.  You will see 4 wet spots in the soil.  The ultimate idea here is you adjust the flowrate(or dripper spacing) so that you DONT have dry spots but you DO water deep.  The wets pots will increase in size over time and at 4 hrs you will know how large those wet spots are.  I used to sometimes go 5 hrs.  I also had dripper sharing between adjacently planted palms which gets a larger wet overlap between systems.  Once you put the rock down, evaporation will lessen considerably and you can evaluate the wet spot size.  I usually prodded the rock/soil with a stick to see if it was wet at drip line away from the trunk.  If the bizzie is large you may need more drippers, but you have to let them run 4 hrs to see how big the wet spots are.  I noticed yu are rancho cucamonga, it it really hot there?  Is your soil clay?  I was reading another arozona thread, though I was referring to that desert.... very hot.

[sonoranfans]

Rancho Cugamonga, Im not sure that is all that hot or dry.  If you cant get wet spots, your soil might be very high drainage.  IF that is the case, I'd go to multiple microsprayers, not drip at all.   And water only at night.

[Palmaholic]

It does get hot, not Arizona, palm springs hot but summertime high temps are always in the upper 80's to upper 90's with some periods of 100 degree temperatures and it is a dry heat with very little humidity.  I am slowly starting to transition away from drippers since my soil is all sand and rock.  I recently poured 2 gallons of water/water soluble fertilizer into the basin of the Bismarck and it was gone within 45-60 seconds.  I have purchased some spot spitters, some 7 GPH and some 17 GPH and am hoping to get the entire surrounding area wet so I can use controlled release fertilizer.  It will be a lot of work for some of my palms since the area around the trees are covered with weed fabric and rock on top of that so I will have to pull back the rock and fabric to put down the fertilizer.

I was using only water soluble fertilizer before but after getting feedback on this thread, it appears that my soil simply drains to fast for the water soluble fertilizer to be effective.  It sounds like the better approach is to switch to controlled release fertilizer and supplement with the water soluble fertilizer.  Do you think that is a good idea and if so, do I need to wet the area before I use the water soluble fertilizer or can I soil drench if the soil is dry?

[Jim in Los Altos]

8 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Stretched petiole looks different compared to the ones I usually see around here. I’m guessing it’s because you have them in partial sun vs full sun? Whatever the case, it looks great.

Johnny, Almost full shade. It gets morning sun. It’s growing fairly fast despite our cooler climate and the shade it’s in. The petioles do grow very long. I think it will eventually surpass the Parajubaea that’s mostly responsible for shading it and that will change its growing habits then. It gets a lot of water year round. 

[sonoranfans]

Sounds like you may have an excessive drainage problem, and no cation exchange capacity in the sand and rock.  I think you should consider changing the soil, maybe add some clay, work it in, and hope it rinses into the sand and rock soil column.  Really high drainage with no cation exchange capacity means a fast dry cycle and it means lots of water usage expenses with poor fertilizer delivery.  Clay can slow that down and help hold some water.  If your soil holds water better its going to be more efficient in fertilizer delivery to th epalm roots too.  I mulch in my high drainage soil florida garden and the rain and heat/humidity help the microbes digest it and it sinks in the soil column.  I would like to buy clay to ammend my soil here in some places.

[Palmaholic]

I will see if I can find some clay somewhere to try to work into the soil.  I have started experimenting with trying to work some mulch into the soil with some of my other palms that are on a slope.  I will try to do the same with the Bismarcks as well.  Thanks for the suggestions.

[freakypalmguy]

On 7/23/2020 at 1:51 PM, Palmaholic said:

I will see if I can find some clay somewhere to try to work into the soil.  I have started experimenting with trying to work some mulch into the soil with some of my other palms that are on a slope.  I will try to do the same with the Bismarcks as well.  Thanks for the suggestions.

Did you ever get this problem corrected? I’ve got one that looks similar.

[rprimbs]

That's weird.  I live in Escondido, and I've got a Bismarkia that I don't water at all, and it looks just fine.

[Billeb]

2 hours ago, rprimbs said:

That's weird.  I live in Escondido, and I've got a Bismarkia that I don't water at all, and it looks just fine.

Looks good. Gonna be a monster! 

[rprimbs]

I think the droopy leaves are from a gopher or squirrel chewing on the roots. 

The first little one I planted was killed by a gopher.  Then I dug a monumental one meter x one meter hole and put wire mesh around the hole.  I lined the bottom with large rocks.   I planted the little five gallon palm and only watered it when I planted it.  It has not been watered in years!  I think people are wrong.  These are extremely xeric palms. 

 

 

[freakypalmguy]

On 7/23/2020 at 1:13 PM, sonoranfans said:

Sounds like you may have an excessive drainage problem, and no cation exchange capacity in the sand and rock.  I think you should consider changing the soil, maybe add some clay, work it in, and hope it rinses into the sand and rock soil column.  Really high drainage with no cation exchange capacity means a fast dry cycle and it means lots of water usage expenses with poor fertilizer delivery.  Clay can slow that down and help hold some water.  If your soil holds water better its going to be more efficient in fertilizer delivery to th epalm roots too.  I mulch in my high drainage soil florida garden and the rain and heat/humidity help the microbes digest it and it sinks in the soil column.  I would like to buy clay to ammend my soil here in some places.

What do you think of the roots that have come to the surface around this Bismarkia? It gets the same tattered frond that the op showed. Would it help to cover them with mulch?

[sonoranfans]

3 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

What do you think of the roots that have come to the surface around this Bismarkia? It gets the same tattered frond that the op showed. Would it help to cover them with mulch?

I would use clay and granite rock around those roots.  The granite will slow the evaporation and keep the roots from heating too much.  Looks pretty good for a nice desert garden Matt.  Yu might be able to hold a few more leaves on that bizzy by limiting the drying of the roots.  There is something called "turface MVP" calcined clay that might rally help there matt.  Its inert granular soil additive they use in golf courses here, tends to help the grass roots stay moist longer without soggy soil.  They sell a 50 lb bag here for ~$15, I am in the process of putting this in my yard to help my dry sandy soils retain moisture longer.  It might be even better to help out therre in the desert.  It will not acc calcium to your soil(its inert) does not change soil pH and does hold water and provides come cation exchange.  Some posters like silas sancona have mentioned it and my investigation has me going in this direction for my water loving palms here.  My bismarckia doesnt need it but kentiopsis satakentia and archies are always drying out int he spring season.  It should help limit the annual spring dissication for my yard.

[freakypalmguy]

3 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I would use clay and granite rock around those roots.  The granite will slow the evaporation and keep the roots from heating too much.  Looks pretty good for a nice desert garden Matt.  Yu might be able to hold a few more leaves on that bizzy by limiting the drying of the roots.  There is something called "turface MVP" calcined clay that might rally help there matt.  Its inert granular soil additive they use in golf courses here, tends to help the grass roots stay moist longer without soggy soil.  They sell a 50 lb bag here for ~$15, I am in the process of putting this in my yard to help my dry sandy soils retain moisture longer.  It might be even better to help out therre in the desert.  It will not acc calcium to your soil(its inert) does not change soil pH and does hold water and provides come cation exchange.  Some posters like silas sancona have mentioned it and my investigation has me going in this direction for my water loving palms here.  My bismarckia doesnt need it but kentiopsis satakentia and archies are always drying out int he spring season.  It should help limit the annual spring dissication for my yard.

Sonoranfans,

I will see if I can find the Turface MVP locally, there website says there are a few local distributors. It definitely would be nice for this one to hold a few more fronds, like my others do. That and a layer of granite rock. My soil has quite a bit of DG in it. 
 

The irrigation setup is a pop up sprinkler on either side, so it hasn’t been getting a deep soak. I’m going to add some drips around the perimeter as mentioned earlier in the thread to help also.

 Thank you for the compliment, I definitely have a fairly hefty water bill to keep these plants happy. We are supposed to be over 100F by Tuesday.

 Thank you again, I appreciate your knowledge and help.