Too Much Water?

[ahosey01]

One of the things I have realized about the horticultural literature on keeping palms is that everything I read is cautious of overwatering, especially for desert-native species like Phoenix dactylifera, Washingtonia filifera and Brahea armata.

However - the thing that confuses me is that whenever I see these palms naturalized in some part of the desert, they always seem to be immediately next to a water source - typically close enough that the ground would theoretically be saturated.  Often, as well, they are growing right in thick desert clay soil.

So what's going on here?  Can you really overwater a desert-adapted palm in the desert?

[Dimovi]

Yep, I've been thinking about the same. I've seen Washingtonia and Sabals grow along creeks and lakes and they look great. These is a seedling in my backyard creek growing permanently under water. I suspect the issue is mostly for pots where the temperature can get very high, but that is just a guess.

I have a natural spring dumping straight into a small Sabal, which is doing better than all of my other Sabals. 

I think Brahea seems a lot more sensitive to water, but dactylifera likes a lot of water in combination with dry hot days. The natural habitat for dactylifera is the oasis, with dry heat and groundwater.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Dimovi

[ahosey01]

2 hours ago, Dimovi said:

Yep, I've been thinking about the same. I've seen Washingtonia and Sabals grow along creeks and lakes and they look great. These is a seedling in my backyard creek growing permanently under water. I suspect the issue is mostly for pots where the temperature can get very high, but that is just a guess.

I have a natural spring dumping straight into a small Sabal, which is doing better than all of my other Sabals. 

I think Brahea seems a lot more sensitive to water, but dactylifera likes a lot of water in combination with dry hot days. The natural habitat for dactylifera is the oasis, with dry heat and groundwater.

It's interesting you say this about Brahea, though.  @TexasColdHardyPalms has argued that Brahea actually like a lot of water.  Also, the grower from whom I bought the palms grows only Brahea armata at a giant grow yard in south Phoenix.  They probably have 5000+ trees.  He was saying that the best he had ever seen any of his palms do after planting was when they were planted on the edge of an irrigation canal that was full 3 days per week.

I can't speak from experience.  I have been giving mine 15-25 gallons of water once per week, and they are planted in clay soil.  So far they like it.  I am planning to increase this though, and see what happens.

[TomJ]

What a plant can survive in can be much different than what a plant can thrive in.

 

[Dimovi]

57 minutes ago, TomJ said:

What a plant can survive in can be much different than what a plant can thrive in.

 

Sabals thrive on the banks of Austin creeks, they don't just survive. In fact their natural habitat in Texas is along the Rio Grande.

[Dimovi]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

It's interesting you say this about Brahea, though.  @TexasColdHardyPalms has argued that Brahea actually like a lot of water.  Also, the grower from whom I bought the palms grows only Brahea armata at a giant grow yard in south Phoenix.  They probably have 5000+ trees.  He was saying that the best he had ever seen any of his palms do after planting was when they were planted on the edge of an irrigation canal that was full 3 days per week.

I can't speak from experience.  I have been giving mine 15-25 gallons of water once per week, and they are planted in clay soil.  So far they like it.  I am planning to increase this though, and see what happens.

I have little experience with Brahea. I killed a few in pots by overwatering, but it may also be from over-fertilizing too.

It is possible that constant water is different from alternating between dry and wet.

If I water my potted palms too often they become chlorotic, but two palms in my backyard that are constantly wet (because of a natural spring) seem to not only tolerate it but they look better than the rest.

 

[tim_brissy_13]

I can’t even think of one palm that I’ve killed from overwatering. Even the species that are known/thought to be more drought loving or at least drought tolerant still seem to do better with plenty of water in the growing season. For me, all Sabals, Braheas and Washingtonias I’ve ever grown grow at a much faster rate when given extra water. 

[Dimovi]

7 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I can’t even think of one palm that I’ve killed from overwatering. Even the species that are known/thought to be more drought loving or at least drought tolerant still seem to do better with plenty of water in the growing season. For me, all Sabals, Braheas and Washingtonias I’ve ever grown grow at a much faster rate when given extra water. 

I have the same experience with dactylifera. It was in a loamy soil that was constantly wet.

 

[ahosey01]

2 hours ago, Dimovi said:

I have the same experience with dactylifera. It was in a loamy soil that was constantly wet.

 

Yeah, this is interesting. There is a commercial date growing text I have that suggests watering mature date palms with 50-100 gallons each per day when fruiting. And many of the commercial date growers whose orchards I drive by in AZ flood each tree out when I notice them watering.

[Dimovi]

25 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Yeah, this is interesting. There is a commercial date growing text I have that suggests watering mature date palms with 50-100 gallons each per day when fruiting. And many of the commercial date growers whose orchards I drive by in AZ flood each tree out when I notice them watering.

Yep, flood irrigation is a common practice in date farms. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Brahea love water as long as it's hot and not a swamp. Like jubaea they will sit and do nothing without water but will speed up dramatically with copious amounts of water. 

[Frond-friend42]

In the wild, roots can go where the wish. Water distributes unevenly, and mineral deposits from the water dont accumulate the same way as in pots. Considering the source of the water too.. Many different variables at play. 

Interesting topic. Any of you avoiding tap water or only using rain on certain palms. I suppose some species may be really finicky.

[Jim in Los Altos]

1 hour ago, Frond-friend42 said:

In the wild, roots can go where the wish. Water distributes unevenly, and mineral deposits from the water dont accumulate the same way as in pots. Considering the source of the water too.. Many different variables at play. 

Interesting topic. Any of you avoiding tap water or only using rain on certain palms. I suppose some species may be really finicky.

I have over 140 palm species (300+palms) thriving on tap water here in Northern California. We don’t get a drop of rain for six months out of the year and those are the growing season months, so it’s either lots of tap water, or no water at all. 

[Frond-friend42]

That is quite the jungle you have going! What is your temperature range? Let's see... Los Altos ...40's to 80's...colder than I expected.

Another that's been scratching my head. Do you own a pet chimpanzee?  I could swear I saw one in your pictures on another thread, dressed as a small child.

[sonoranfans]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:40 PM, ahosey01 said:

Hey guys,

Wondering if anyone can point me to some locations in the American Southwest where non-native (or native to the region, but not that specific area) palms have been naturalized.

For example, there is a significant stand of Washingtonia filifera that have been naturalized in the bed of the New River Wash south of Black Canyon City in Arizona.  I have heard there are CIDPs naturalized in California, but I don’t know where they are.

I know there are more. I’d like to naturalize some Phoenix dactylifera in the wash behind my house. It’s full of non-native saltcedar and tree-of-heaven anyways, and if it’s going to be a safe place for non-native invasives, might as well add something fruit producing that looks nicer.

I have not seen naturalized bismarckia in arizona.  Filifera have been in arizona for a very long time.  Fossil dating has them there the same time as in california, some botanists think they are native to both states.   Dactylifera are desert denizens of high adaptability, they do very well in phoenix, can survive with less water than washingtonia robusta.  You watering regimen is low for the sonoran desert.  I used 3 drippers per palm for 5 hrs(30 gallons x 3 times a week in the heat).  In winter cut it back.  IN the heat overwatering is less of an issue as there are MASSIVE evaporative losses in that dessicating environment.  ANd for this reason you need to water deep, that is slowly for 5 hrs or so.  Deep watering promotes a healthier root system in the desert at the top of the soil dries more quickly.  The biggest issues with watering come in winter where overwatering causes root rot.  YOU can read how this is an issue for W. Filifera at the University of Arizona horticultural site on palms for the desert.  Watering in winter should be about 1/3rd as much, once a week at most.  If you get a cold front where it gets below 40F stop watering all together.  Any farm is not overusing water in winter as its expensive and produces nothing but trouble.  ANd you are underwatering at once a week 25 gallons in summer for a established juvenile palm.  But remember slow watering leads to deeper penetration of soil and less evaporative losses.  ALso always water at night,  10pm or later so the rock can cool off a bit.

[sonoranfans]

Here are 2 of my 6 armatas that I grew in gilbert az with the above watering regimen.  Note that all palms are bunched to make best use of the drippers, with 3-4 2 gallon drippers per palm 3x a week in the hot season(100F or more highs).

 

 

 

[ahosey01]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I have not seen naturalized bismarckia in arizona.  Filifera have been in arizona for a very long time.  Fossil dating has them there the same time as in california, some botanists think they are native to both states.   Dactylifera are desert denizens of high adaptability, they do very well in phoenix, can survive with less water than washingtonia robusta.  You watering regimen is low for the sonoran desert.  I used 3 drippers per palm for 5 hrs(30 gallons x 3 times a week in the heat).  In winter cut it back.  IN the heat overwatering is less of an issue as there are MASSIVE evaporative losses in that dessicating environment.  ANd for this reason you need to water deep, that is slowly for 5 hrs or so.  Deep watering promotes a healthier root system in the desert at the top of the soil dries more quickly.  The biggest issues with watering come in winter where overwatering causes root rot.  YOU can read how this is an issue for W. Filifera at the University of Arizona horticultural site on palms for the desert.  Watering in winter should be about 1/3rd as much, once a week at most.  If you get a cold front where it gets below 40F stop watering all together.  Any farm is not overusing water in winter as its expensive and produces nothing but trouble.  ANd you are underwatering at once a week 25 gallons in summer for a established juvenile palm.  But remember slow watering leads to deeper penetration of soil and less evaporative losses.  ALso always water at night,  10pm or later so the rock can cool off a bit.

This is useful.  I hadn’t thought to go that high, because both plants have pushed out a new leaf since transplanting about 8 weeks ago, and are each about to push out another.  My thought was just that if these guys can do that shortly after the initial thought of transplanting, then what I was giving was sufficient.

Next question - what about your Bismarckia?  Same watering regimen or more?

[sonoranfans]

31 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

This is useful.  I hadn’t thought to go that high, because both plants have pushed out a new leaf since transplanting about 8 weeks ago, and are each about to push out another.  My thought was just that if these guys can do that shortly after the initial thought of transplanting, then what I was giving was sufficient.

Next question - what about your Bismarckia?  Same watering regimen or more?

Yes, with 30 gal x3 per week I was talking about established juvenile palms, not a fresh plant which has a very small and shallow root area.   Shallow roots mean more frequent and shorter watering duration.  Properly grown brahea armata should have roots 3' deep or more in the desert and that generally requires long watering periods in high clay soil.  You will need to water more frequently due to the shallow roots and the soil drying.   Bismarckia were on the same irrigation line but as they get a bigger the canopy drip line they may need an extra dripper and all drippers I moved away from the trunk as the palm became large.   You can check wet zones after watering to ensure you have enough drippers to wet completely in a circle around the trunk.  Bizzies and brahea armata are similar with their cultural requirements, both like less water in winter but like water in summer.  Bismarckia are just about as heat tolerant as far as I could tell.  Both palms do well in alkaline soil unlike many other palms.  I did ensure there was enough humic acid dosing(2-3x a year to provide a good soil environment for beneficial fungus and bacteria.  If you plan on growing other palms that might not like alkaline soil(some have nutrient uptake issues) I would start laying down sulfur pellets, 2-3 handfuls per palm 2x a year and mix it in to the top 3-4" just beyond the current root zones.  This will slowly shift the soil towards neutral over a 3-4 years, its microbe activated pH adjustment.  Here is a pic showing (2) of the bizzies about ten years ago.  I would protect the bizzies in winter for 3 years or so with a sheet on the coldest nights(>30F) just to ensure they establish roots before exposing them to the 22-28 degree cold blasts.  My queens in the background were thenicest in the area, but I hated the maintenance and water usage and they got gugly as they grew large in the desert.  I would not plant them again if I were planting out a garden in AZ, there are too any better adapted, (and bless fertilier pig) palms to choose.

[Dimovi]

10 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

In the wild, roots can go where the wish. Water distributes unevenly, and mineral deposits from the water dont accumulate the same way as in pots. Considering the source of the water too.. Many different variables at play. 

Interesting topic. Any of you avoiding tap water or only using rain on certain palms. I suppose some species may be really finicky.

I use a spring water from my backyard as much as possible because my tap water is extremely alkaline, the pH is over 9.

[Jim in Los Altos]

4 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

That is quite the jungle you have going! What is your temperature range? Let's see... Los Altos ...40's to 80's...colder than I expected.

Another that's been scratching my head. Do you own a pet chimpanzee?  I could swear I saw one in your pictures on another thread, dressed as a small child.

My averages in °F and °C. Oh and the orangutan, not real.  

[Frond-friend42]

Ha ha ha. The way you were walking it, it was classic.

[Jim in Los Altos]

10 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

Ha ha ha. The way you were walking it, it was classic.

Have fooled quite a few with her.