Cycads and triple super phosphate

[Cycadsavy]

Hello Palmtalk community,

I’ve currently got a young Encephalartos Arenarius seedling that seems to be struggling.  Have any of you used triple super phosphate to speed up root system development with cycads, or more specifically encephalartos species?

 Thank you,

[Silas_Sancona]

28 minutes ago, Cycadsavy said:

Hello Palmtalk community,

I’ve currently got a young Encephalartos Arenarius seedling that seems to be struggling.  Have any of you used triple super phosphate to speed up root system development with cycads, or more specifically encephalartos species?

 Thank you,

Cycadsavy, welcome to the Forum and Palmtalk..

I'll let those much more experienced w/ these share their thoughts but wouldn't apply -anything- 1x, 2x, 3x super Phosphate to -anything- myself.  Plants only use so much of it, even in containers.. The rest ends up wasted. Too much of PH can destroy the fertility of the soil and can tie up other nutrients as well.. At most, i'll apply a normal dose of Phos. ( say 10% ) to my Plumeria/ few other things once a year. Don't think i have used any on any Cycads i have currently.  In the ground, Phos. only moves about 1/2 of an inch through the soil on average. For the most part, native soil in many places has adequate amounts naturally and don't need additional amounts..

All those super Phos /Potassium "boosters" are just a used car salesman kind of gimmick.

[Merlyn]

In general cycads seem to like a high nitrogen fertilizer, so a "phosphate booster" wouldn't be a big benefit.  Tom Broome (here on the forums as Cycad Jungle) recommends a 24-7-8 with minor nutrients, or something like Nutricote 360 which is 18-6-8.  In relative ratios they are something along the lines of 3-1-1 or 2-1-1 NPK with minor nutrients.  I generally use a "palm special" fertilizer like 8-4-8, 6-1-8 or Osmocote 15-9-12.  For potted plants I use Osmocote 15-9-12.  As long as the fertilizer is a timed release you should be okay.  All fast release like generic 10-10-10 could burn the roots if you aren't super careful.

[Tracy]

21 hours ago, Cycadsavy said:

I’ve currently got a young Encephalartos Arenarius seedling that seems to be struggling.

 

11 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

I generally use a "palm special" fertilizer like 8-4-8, 6-1-8 or Osmocote 15-9-12.  For potted plants I use Osmocote 15-9-12.

Generally speaking, most cycads and Encephalartos genus specifically, will thrive on neglect.  I wouldn't use a triple phosphate to jump start a cycad either.  I use similar fertilizers as Merlyn identified and with seedlings tend to be cautious even with time released fertilizers.  When you mention struggling, can you elaborate and maybe share a photo?  Other things to consider are water, the media it is planted in and light exposure.   I assume it is in a pot, not the ground.  My personal experience is that this species will handle growing in some shade, it doesn't need the full sun of some of it's close relatives like horridus, trispinosis, princeps and lehmannii, and seedlings of all these species may need a little additional late afternoon protection from sun and heat until they get a little larger.

Young cycads require a good deal of patience, which sometimes means resisting the urge to over fertilize or over water them.  Share a photo or two and elaborate on what has you concerned.  Hopefully someone will have some more helpful tips rather than more questions like me.  Final comment, welcome to the forum!

[Merlyn]

That's a good point Tracy, personally I don't have any experience with E. Arenarius.  The only one I have sorta-like-it is a Natalensis x Arenarius hybrid.  And I've only owned that one for a couple of months.  All I know about Arenarius is that they are relatively cold-hardy (good to 20F easily) and love sun.  I have in my notes that they are okay with lots of water, per Tom Broome.  But I might have written that down wrong so I'm not sure if that's actually true. 

[Tracy]

2 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

The only one I have sorta-like-it is a Natalensis x Arenarius hybrid.  And I've only owned that one for a couple of months.  All I know about Arenarius is that they are relatively cold-hardy (good to 20F easily) and love sun.  I have in my notes that they are okay with lots of water, per Tom Broome.  But I might have written that down wrong so I'm not sure if that's actually true. 

Your Encephalartos natalensis x arenarius probably has more cold tolerance than a pure E. arenarius due to E. natalensis having a little more cold tolerance than E. arenarius. I didn't think that true arenarius are as cold tolerant as 20; my understanding was closer to 25, but I don't get down to those temps so never have tested.  Regarding water, I treat these no different than my other Eastern Cape Encephalartos species, not that my anecdotal experience is the only answer.  Like most cycads and particularly Eastern cape Encephalartos, they all appreciate good draining soil.

I do believe that the cold tolerance will be an issue in the Dallas area during winter for Encephalartos arenarius, 

[msporty]

What do you mean by struggling?

 

Young cycads, especially 1-2 leaf liners, grow very slowly but pick up the pace each year. Assuming it’s not suffering from root rot, it’s probably typical growth rate. Maybe you have a photo?
 

With regard to fertilizer, I think it’s ok to apply a small amount, even with liners. Triple phosphate is asking for trouble. All the suggestions from Merlyn2220  are great. I use nutricote 18-6-8 with minors on all my cycads. It’s very nice stuff and only needs to be applied once a year.

[Merlyn]

11 hours ago, Tracy said:

Your Encephalartos natalensis x arenarius probably has more cold tolerance than a pure E. arenarius due to E. natalensis having a little more cold tolerance than E. arenarius. I didn't think that true arenarius are as cold tolerant as 20; my understanding was closer to 25, but I don't get down to those temps so never have tested.  Regarding water, I treat these no different than my other Eastern Cape Encephalartos species, not that my anecdotal experience is the only answer.  Like most cycads and particularly Eastern cape Encephalartos, they all appreciate good draining soil.

I do believe that the cold tolerance will be an issue in the Dallas area during winter for Encephalartos arenarius, 

I had in my notes that the blue Arenarius were good into the upper teens, and Natalensis was good down to 24.  I checked George Sparkman's website and he had listed Arenarius at 25 and Natalensis at 24.  So I'm not sure where I got "upper teens for blue Arenarius and low 20s for green Arenarius."  I'd have to look around to see if I can figure out where I got that from.  JungleMusic lists Natalensis at "about 22."  Others say Arenarius is "frost sensitive."  Since I almost never hit 25F I figured that both of them would be more than cold hardy here. 

[Cycadsavy]

Thank you all for contributing and providing feedback.  The seedling is planted in a Junglemusic mix of pumice, sand, orchid bark, peat moss, and half parts of charcoal and perlite.  I may just need a little patience with this one.  Please see the photos below...

[Tracy]

1 hour ago, Cycadsavy said:

Thank you all for contributing and providing feedback.  The seedling is planted in a Junglemusic mix of pumice, sand, orchid bark, peat moss, and half parts of charcoal and perlite.  I may just need a little patience with this one.  Please see the photos below...

Looks like it just requires some patience.  I don't see anything indicating a problem in your photos.

 

10 hours ago, msporty said:

With regard to fertilizer, I think it’s ok to apply a small amount, even with liners

The key being small amount as msporty has noted, don't go overboard or apply more frequently than recommended with little liners to "jump start" them.

[Merlyn]

I agree with Tracy, I don't see anything unusual there.  They are always really slow when they are that size.  My Lehmannii in a recent post looks pretty similar, but a bit more compact due to growing in full sun.  Yours looks a little bit stretched out, which may be from the amount of light it's getting while flushing.  Personally I'd leave it alone and give it a small amount of Osmocote or Nutricote.  Like maybe 20 grains, no more.

[tropicalb]

Cycadsavy...

I would keep an eye over time on the scoria it appears you are using on the top of your mix...the only problem with scoria (imo) is the fact that over time, the salt that is inherently in water and fertilizer makes it's way into the holes in the volcanic rock and settles there...it's the main reason i don't use it, especially IN a mix....those that prefer to use it leach (or flush) their plants every so often to remove salt buildups....just my two cents.

[Cycadsavy]

Just to give everyone an update and also keep folks from repeating my mistakes, I’ll give y’all an update.  Today, I decided to pull it out of the pot to inspect, and possibly repot depending on signs of life.  Upon inspection, complete root rot.  The soil I had it potted in was staying wet for too long and I did over water when I first potted the seedling, which I didn’t realize until I later started using a water meter.  So, I definitely should’ve used more perlite or pumice in my mix, and possibly a little less direct sun.  Primarily from the the conditions of the roots though, the culprit was root rot....

[Cycadsavy]

Hello Palmtalk team, I know many of you quoted Tom Broome’s fertilizer protocol, I believe he also recommended the use of TSP as well.

Have any of you had positive or negative experiences with the use of TSP specifically?

Thank you,

 

Nick

[Tracy]

41 minutes ago, Cycadsavy said:

Hello Palmtalk team, I know many of you quoted Tom Broome’s fertilizer protocol, I believe he also recommended the use of TSP as well.

Have any of you had positive or negative experiences with the use of TSP specifically?

Thank you,

 

Nick

No Triple Super Phosphate in laundry, not on cycads, not on Encephalartos including Encephalartos arenarius.  Just simple patience and someday you will have a plant of size without TSP.