more fun Pritchardia Guessing

[Briank]

Just picked this up today.    And can’t decide which one it is, but I like it anyways.  

 

Shattaurii? 

[doubravsky]

Sure is purty!

[WaianaeCrider]

Here in the islands the Big Box stores sell Pritchardias all the time.  But the suppliers don't know what they are selling so they just label them FAN PALM.   LOL  Suppliers should be ashamed.

[John hovancsek]

Here on the big island I have seen palms miss labeled and the sad part is they get them from florabunda and grow them to 3+ gallon size and so I know they are labeled when they are sold to the people that sell to the garden centers around town 

[Dusty CBAD]

I just got one this year, and that close up shot of the crown looks identical to mine. The guy I bought mine from said it was hillebrandii. 
 

[Frond-friend42]

They're all viscosas!

[WaianaeCrider]

4 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

They're all viscosas!

I even googled viscosas and still have no idea what it means.   LOL

[Frond-friend42]

Viscosas are an especially rare Loulu, just 3 or 4 growing wild on Kauai.

Let's see, out of twenty seven pritchardias, this looks like a Hawaiian, which eliminates three: mtitiaroana, thurstonii,  and pacifica, so we're down to 24...

The undersides look green, which eliminates arecina,  bakeri, flynnii, hardyi,kahukenuensis,  martii,  minor, perlmanii, and viscosa; so we're down to 15...

The leaf blade is wavy, which eliminates beccariana and napaliensis; 13...

This leaves us with lowreyana, maideniana, munroi,  remota, schattaueri,  waialealeana, kaalae, hildebrandii, lanigera, forbesiana, glabrata, gordonii, or woodii.

The waviness of the leaf blade looks more like a bifold pattern as in forbearance or martii, rather than the midline semifold of lowreyana.  Munroi has a distinctive pattern of wooly hairs at the undrrside junction of leaf and petiole excluding that one; 11....

Not enough leaflets, deep semifolds, or waxy coating to be hillebrandii; leaftips not droopy or divided enough to be remota; schauttaeris tips tend to split, and the full blade looks more wavy; 9...

Waialealeana is not hairy enough;  woodii seems to have stiffer and more numerous leaflets; lowreyana, gordonii and glabrata have semicircular instead of arrow-shaped upper hastulas; 4...

That leaves kaalae, forbesiana, lanigera,  or maideniana.  Feel free to pick any of this apart. Love to learn whatever I can from y'all.

[WaianaeCrider]

1 hour ago, Frond-friend42 said:

Viscosas are an especially rare Loulu, just 3 or 4 growing wild on Kauai.

Let's see, out of twenty seven pritchardias, this looks like a Hawaiian, which eliminates three: mtitiaroana, thurstonii,  and pacifica, so we're down to 24...

The undersides look green, which eliminates arecina,  bakeri, flynnii, hardyi,kahukenuensis,  martii,  minor, perlmanii, and viscosa; so we're down to 15...

The leaf blade is wavy, which eliminates beccariana and napaliensis; 13...

This leaves us with lowreyana, maideniana, munroi,  remota, schattaueri,  waialealeana, kaalae, hildebrandii, lanigera, forbesiana, glabrata, gordonii, or woodii.

The waviness of the leaf blade looks more like a bifold pattern as in forbearance or martii, rather than the midline semifold of lowreyana.  Munroi has a distinctive pattern of wooly hairs at the undrrside junction of leaf and petiole excluding that one; 11....

Not enough leaflets, deep semifolds, or waxy coating to be hillebrandii; leaftips not droopy or divided enough to be remota; schauttaeris tips tend to split, and the full blade looks more wavy; 9...

Waialealeana is not hairy enough;  woodii seems to have stiffer and more numerous leaflets; lowreyana, gordonii and glabrata have semicircular instead of arrow-shaped upper hastulas; 4...

That leaves kaalae, forbesiana, lanigera,  or maideniana.  Feel free to pick any of this apart. Love to learn whatever I can from y'all.

WOW!  You are good.  Some how I gotta meet someone who could do that to the 7 I have that Im sure the seller mislabeled 20 years ago.  LOL

[Frond-friend42]

5 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

WOW!  You are good.  Some how I gotta meet someone who could do that to the 7 I have that Im sure the seller mislabeled 20 years ago.  LOL

Thanks. Im trying really hard. I'd be happy to try and guess yours.

Some pritchardias look quite different in cultivation, like, this one above could maybe be martii or schattaueri,  ones I eliminated. Different stages of growth can throw the whole thing off.  Fruit and inflorescences can help a ton to narrow it down. So you have to wonder, why can't these sellers keep track of what they are buying/selling? Even Palmpedia has mislabeled pictures....I swear they had some bismarkias on their latania loddegesii page.

[Briank]

9 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

Viscosas are an especially rare Loulu, just 3 or 4 growing wild on Kauai.

Let's see, out of twenty seven pritchardias, this looks like a Hawaiian, which eliminates three: mtitiaroana, thurstonii,  and pacifica, so we're down to 24...

The undersides look green, which eliminates arecina,  bakeri, flynnii, hardyi,kahukenuensis,  martii,  minor, perlmanii, and viscosa; so we're down to 15...

The leaf blade is wavy, which eliminates beccariana and napaliensis; 13...

This leaves us with lowreyana, maideniana, munroi,  remota, schattaueri,  waialealeana, kaalae, hildebrandii, lanigera, forbesiana, glabrata, gordonii, or woodii.

The waviness of the leaf blade looks more like a bifold pattern as in forbearance or martii, rather than the midline semifold of lowreyana.  Munroi has a distinctive pattern of wooly hairs at the undrrside junction of leaf and petiole excluding that one; 11....

Not enough leaflets, deep semifolds, or waxy coating to be hillebrandii; leaftips not droopy or divided enough to be remota; schauttaeris tips tend to split, and the full blade looks more wavy; 9...

Waialealeana is not hairy enough;  woodii seems to have stiffer and more numerous leaflets; lowreyana, gordonii and glabrata have semicircular instead of arrow-shaped upper hastulas; 4...

That leaves kaalae, forbesiana, lanigera,  or maideniana.  Feel free to pick any of this apart. Love to learn whatever I can from y'all.

Woooah! You know a lot about these lol.  It’s always nice to learn.   As I’m trying to grow more of these since everything else I planted has taken off and these are perfect slow growers to look at amongst the rest of the rockets in growing.  Thanks for the insight. 

[WaianaeCrider]

5 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

Thanks. Im trying really hard. I'd be happy to try and guess yours.

Some pritchardias look quite different in cultivation, like, this one above could maybe be martii or schattaueri,  ones I eliminated. Different stages of growth can throw the whole thing off.  Fruit and inflorescences can help a ton to narrow it down. So you have to wonder, why can't these sellers keep track of what they are buying/selling? Even Palmpedia has mislabeled pictures....I swear they had some bismarkias on their latania loddegesii page.

Mahalo for the offer.  I can get some pictures w/my "good" camera but the files sometimes are to large to upload here.  All I have posted here are from my SamSung Galexy 10S.  Pretty good lens but no optical zoom of course.  I'll get back to you soon.

[Briank]

Here are some of my other Pritchies.  Most about this Size.    I really should label them in case I forget.   But I know what 3 of them are.   The other 3 not so much.  

 

 

 

martii 

lanaiensis 

Beccarianna Hybrid 

[Briank]

I really don’t like Droppy leafed Pritchardias as much,  something about the Stiff Upright leaf or the Sweet White Tomentum on them I love.  

 

I have 3 Hardyii seedlings that I can’t wait to get growing they only have 3 straps at the moment but that one I really like.  

I’d like to add Munroi,  Affinis next.    It’s such a Guessing game as to what you buying so I generally look for shape n quality when finding them.   

[Frond-friend42]

I agree about droopy-leafed. Yours look correctly IDed, from what I know (these are tricky palms, I think the locals don't really tell them apart, just loulu--so the dealers end up mislabeling them. Just my hoale theory). 

P. lanaiensis is a synonym for P. glabrata,  or smooth loulu, smooth due to its hairless leaves and flower stalk. It also occurs on Maui ("one of the few to occur on more than one island"--Hodel).

Beccariana, from big island, seems to have these big flat distinctive leaves. Nice to have young pics for comparison. 

Hybrids have the potential to get me even more confused.

[Briank]

3 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

I agree about droopy-leafed. Yours look correctly IDed, from what I know (these are tricky palms, I think the locals don't really tell them apart, just loulu--so the dealers end up mislabeling them. Just my hoale theory). 

P. lanaiensis is a synonym for P. glabrata,  or smooth loulu, smooth due to its hairless leaves and flower stalk. It also occurs on Maui ("one of the few to occur on more than one island"--Hodel).

Beccariana, from big island, seems to have these big flat distinctive leaves. Nice to have young pics for comparison. 

Hybrids have the potential to get me even more confused.

Yes it seems W the abundance of Hilibrandii growing down here,  beccarriana seems to hybridize well with it.   There’s several growers in so cal that sell this Assumed hybrid lol. 

 

Its TOtal guessing game from even grabbing seeds from mother plant in wild sometimes.   To bad there not another way to ID then other than the eye test. 

 

 

Pritchardia Minor is an undervalued species I believe and although not huge is very great to look at.   Are you in a climate that these can grow in ? 

[Frond-friend42]

Sadly, no. I'm creating a warm humid indoor nursery but am limited to pots where I live...in the Salt Lake Valley.

[Frond-friend42]

One day I hope to move to where I can put them in the ground.

[Frond-friend42]

On 8/21/2020 at 4:50 PM, Dusty CBAD said:

I just got one this year, and that close up shot of the crown looks identical to mine. The guy I bought mine from said it was hillebrandii. 
 

I'm thinking this one is perlmanii. That one has surfboard-shaped leaves.

[JasonD]

My guess would be hillebrandii or X hillebrandii, because it has many hillebrandii characteristics, but also because that's by far the most commonly available species (besides pacifica and thurstonii).

Benjamin FrondFriend: very impressive keying!

[Frond-friend42]

Thanks. Im trying hard to get these guys down. Makes me want to go explore all the islands.  

[Frond-friend42]

2 hours ago, JasonD said:

My guess would be hillebrandii or X hillebrandii, because it has many hillebrandii characteristics, but also because that's by far the most commonly available species (besides pacifica and thurstonii).

Benjamin FrondFriend: very impressive keying!

Now I can see it...each stage of growth the are a bit different. I agree its a hillebrandii. 

[Frond-friend42]

[Frond-friend42]

Park near Princeville, kauai. I think these are P. beccarianas.

[Frond-friend42]

On 8/21/2020 at 2:07 PM, Briank said:

Just picked this up today.    And can’t decide which one it is, but I like it anyways.  

 

Shattaurii? 

I take back what I said about the bigold vs midline semifold pattern of leaves as a distinguising feature. The overall larger creasing shape changes dramatically as the tree progresses.  I think it is not quite crinkly enough to be maideniana. Lanigera's leaves seem to spray out wider and be less folded. From the picks of forbesiana, that looks close too. Forbesiana and lowreyana can both have this diffuse buff colored lepidia like yourw. But the leaves of forbesiana look usually a bit bigger, and a bit wider, and become less highly folded and acuminate as it grows. Forbediana seems too often take on a sharper green than yours. Both have heavy fibers at on base and some on the proximal edges of the leafstalks, but forbes is heavier at the base, and lowrey's is a bit longer fibers on the edges, but Im sure these are vaiable enough not to be dependable identifiers.. So my best guess for the first specimen above is P. lowreyana. 

Both lowreyana and forbesiana have hairleds fruit/flower branchlets. Lowreys flower stalks extend as they fruit into the length zone, but not beyond, of the leaf blade. Forbes's stays shorter than the stalks.  Lowrey's fruit are grape- shaped, like forbes, but lowreys are slightly larger. Forbes: 1.5 x1.75 in. Lowrey's: 1.75x 2.5 in.

Please to inform me where I err in my observations.

[Briank]

22 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

I take back what I said about the bigold vs midline semifold pattern of leaves as a distinguising feature. The overall larger creasing shape changes dramatically as the tree progresses.  I think it is not quite crinkly enough to be maideniana. Lanigera's leaves seem to spray out wider and be less folded. From the picks of forbesiana, that looks close too. Forbesiana and lowreyana can both have this diffuse buff colored lepidia like yourw. But the leaves of forbesiana look usually a bit bigger, and a bit wider, and become less highly folded and acuminate as it grows. Forbediana seems too often take on a sharper green than yours. Both have heavy fibers at on base and some on the proximal edges of the leafstalks, but forbes is heavier at the base, and lowrey's is a bit longer fibers on the edges, but Im sure these are vaiable enough not to be dependable identifiers.. So my best guess for the first specimen above is P. lowreyana. 

Both lowreyana and forbesiana have hairleds fruit/flower branchlets. Lowreys flower stalks extend as they fruit into the length zone, but not beyond, of the leaf blade. Forbes's stays shorter than the stalks.  Lowrey's fruit are grape- shaped, like forbes, but lowreys are slightly larger. Forbes: 1.5 x1.75 in. Lowrey's: 1.75x 2.5 in.

Please to inform me where I err in my observations.

Great Observations.   So they guy I got this from is a great Pritchardia grower and has had sooo many at his Nursery(Pritchardias) we he collected a lot of seed in Hawaii even he can’t really place what it is as he and his palms get older.   I know he has grown a lot of Lowreyana in past, Forbs is good possibility as well.   Was surprised he couldn’t place his finger on what it was, but for me it’s ok as I just like good looking palm trees and maybe as it grows up I’ll be able to divinitively name it.   I went to pick up w Munroi,  but someone snagged the 20 ga one I wanted and the other Munroi didn’t look as good to me as this one.   He has Hardyii, Lanaiensis, Munroi, and many others.     I really don’t want a Hillbrandi,  but if it turns out to be that I will be ok with it. 

 

I am mainly focusing on trying to grow more of these as my room for palms is limited in my jungle now,  but these are slow growing and settle in great among other Palm to offset and break up everything.  Just wish they grew faster. 

 

On my list to add is : 

Munroi

Shattaurii

Minor 

Viscosa (Some day lol) 

Hardyii (Have 3 small Seedlings) 

Glabrata 

Affinis 

 

 

 

[Briank]

22 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

I take back what I said about the bigold vs midline semifold pattern of leaves as a distinguising feature. The overall larger creasing shape changes dramatically as the tree progresses.  I think it is not quite crinkly enough to be maideniana. Lanigera's leaves seem to spray out wider and be less folded. From the picks of forbesiana, that looks close too. Forbesiana and lowreyana can both have this diffuse buff colored lepidia like yourw. But the leaves of forbesiana look usually a bit bigger, and a bit wider, and become less highly folded and acuminate as it grows. Forbediana seems too often take on a sharper green than yours. Both have heavy fibers at on base and some on the proximal edges of the leafstalks, but forbes is heavier at the base, and lowrey's is a bit longer fibers on the edges, but Im sure these are vaiable enough not to be dependable identifiers.. So my best guess for the first specimen above is P. lowreyana. 

Both lowreyana and forbesiana have hairleds fruit/flower branchlets. Lowreys flower stalks extend as they fruit into the length zone, but not beyond, of the leaf blade. Forbes's stays shorter than the stalks.  Lowrey's fruit are grape- shaped, like forbes, but lowreys are slightly larger. Forbes: 1.5 x1.75 in. Lowrey's: 1.75x 2.5 in.

Please to inform me where I err in my observations.

The one Observation he said from trying to remember or Figure it out was he didn’t think it would be one of the large Tall ones. He thinks it might be a Shorter more Robust one.    Not sure among all the options that would leave it that would be the case. 

[Frond-friend42]

11 hours ago, Briank said:

The one Observation he said from trying to remember or Figure it out was he didn’t think it would be one of the large Tall ones. He thinks it might be a Shorter more Robust one.    Not sure among all the options that would leave it that would be the case. 

The big ones: waialealeana(ht up to 65 ft; trunk up to 18 in.in diameter) , schattaueri (80;12), kahukensis (75;12), gordonii (65;10), beccariana (65;10), maideniana (70;12), and arecina (50;20).

The medium large: woodii (50;10), viscosa (30;18), martii (50;12), and lanigera (45;20)

The medium-small: kaale (30;10), remota (30;12), lowreyana (35;10), flynii (20;12), bakeri (30;10), hardyi (30;12), forbesiana (30;12).

Littlest: minor (30;5), perlmanii (15;12), munroi (15;6), napaliensis (30;7), hillibrandii (25;10), glabrata(15;12).

Some are listed as "small to large". I assume this is due to environmental factors that stunt their growth in certain spots and they remain small, whereas in more variable conditions they fill out better.  Among these are maideniana, martii, and bakeri.

 

[Jan Jo]

Hi! I have three types of Pritchardia in my garden, the common Hildebrandii, a potted Thurstonii and this one, which I bought as Minor.

It's been in the ground about 3 years now.

It throws out leaves, but doesn't seem to grow really.. They almost look like miniature/bonsai leaves to me, I suppose I'm used to Hildebrandii where the leaves at that size have a much less perfect shape.. I realise there's not much to go on with that picture (should have taken one of the undersides), does that look like a normal Minor? Do they ever pick up speed? (I have a South California type climate here in Spain).. 

Thanks for any comments! 

J

[Brett in Mission Viejo]

Regarding Pritchardia guessing species fun, I found this 2012 Pritchardia study very interesting. There have been some recent threads on Pritchardia Minor, Martii, and Napaliensis, and other flat leave species with cool fuzz on the leaf undersides:

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-12-23

[Tracy]

On 8/21/2020 at 1:07 PM, Briank said:

 

It looks a lot like my Pritchardia maideniana.  I have one that was acquired before P affinis was renamed maideniana, and the second was acquired several years later as P maideniana.  The older one is a bit harder to tell, but its the one in the first two photos, with the younger P maideniana the third photo.  The most common Pritchardia I have seen available in San Diego is P hillebrandii which can look somewhat similar 4th & 5th photos.  The last photo was something I acquired as a "dwarf" P hillebrandii and its just a couple of years younger than the P maideniana I acquired as affinis in the first two photos, so definitely slower growing or never will get as large as some other hillebrandii.

[quaman58]

Nice collection you have there Tracy. Your maideiana is a perfect example of the photos and description in Hodel's book. The 4th picture is not hillebrandii looking to me;  the weepy tips are not something I see on that species. It's really pretty though. Very glabrata or shatauri looking to me. But, just guesses based on staring at these things for so many years.

[Tracy]

8 hours ago, quaman58 said:

Your maideniana is a perfect example of the photos and description in Hodel's book. The 4th picture is not hillebrandii looking to me;  the weepy tips are not something I see on that species.

You are right about the one labeled as hillebrandii here in Leucadia.  I got it from Phil & Jessie, labeled as P hillebrandii but the leaf tips have definitely shown that weepy tendency as it has grown.  Incorrectly labeled Pritchardia seems to be the norm.  I have a couple of others, one no id, and one bought as P martii which I'm still struggling to id.  I've asked Don Hodel what his thoughts are on the one Iabeled as P martii when he has been here and he advised we would just have to wait for it to get bigger to get an id.  So I don't feel bad about not being able to id it.