What is the difference in signs between an Overwatered Palm and an Underwatered Palm?

[PalmX]

Like the title says, I'm curious what the different signs are between a palm that is overwatered vs. one that is underwatered?



Thanks

[DoomsDave]

It all depends on which palm.

Some are almost impossible to overwater.

Others show stunning toughness for the lack.

If not sure, give us a picture or two.

And welcome!

[palmsOrl]

This can be tricky to differentiate.  As a 23 year palm enthusiast (but far from an expert), I would say I usually just "know it when I see it" in each of the two instances, which is not helpful toward the purpose of this thread, so let's see...

For potted palms, if the soil is staying soggy, is "mucky" or heaven forbid there is standing water for any significant length of time after a thorough watering or a heavy rain, the palm should be repotted into fresh soil of an appropriate mix for the species and into an appropriately-sized pot with adequate drainage holes (assuming the pot does not already meet these criteria).  Also, if there is a fetid, rotten odor to the soil, this is another sign the soil is staying too wet and that it indeed needs to be changed to fresh soil.  There are a few species that are exceptions to the above, such as Cyrtostachys renda, where the palm can be kept successfully in wet soil or even with the roots submerged in water.  Others, such as Sabal palmetto and Roystonea regia, for example, can grow in swampy conditions in habitat, but I have never tried them in a pot that stayed wet to see if this would work or not.  Even with these few palms (not an exhaustive list) that can grow in wet soil, I would immediately repot if I noticed a foul odor to the soil mix.

As for the palm itself, I have seen over-watered palms that start having the older leaves turn brown, or first yellow then fading to brown.  I have also seen "wet looking" gray or brown necrotic patches develop on the leaves, which indicates a fungal or possible bacterial infection has taken hold due to over-watering or sometimes due to keeping the crown of the palm wet, especially during periods of cooler temperatures.

Over-watering in clustering palms can manifest as some of the suckers, or even one by one, rotting at the base and pulling lose or collapsing.  Typically the base of the portion that pulled lose and the base it was attached to will be mushy and may have an odor present.  I had this happen last fall to some of the outer suckers on a Chamaedorea cataractum.  Fortunately, this was self-limiting, granted I did back off on watering and the palm is alive and extremely healthy today.

Underwatering, especially acute underwatering, is typically easier to spot and more easily rectified if immediate and ongoing corrective action is taken.  Obviously, the top of the soil (and perhaps extending to a greater depth) will be dry and this is easy to observe.  Oftentimes a palm, especially smaller palms will lack turgor and take on a flaccid, wilted appearance.  In my experience, this is usually easily corrected if the palm is promptly watered and adequate irrigation is then continued.  When I had my potted Cocos out on the lake shore in all day sun this Spring, they became really dry and several of them leaned over and the portion of the palms from the base on up to the petioles of the palms themselves got wobbly.  After several days of adequate moisture, they were standing straight up again.  Cocos can really take short-term drought quite well.

Another sign of underwatering can be curled up leaflets, browning tips or (like over-watering) a sudden progressive browning of the oldest leaves first and progressing to the newer fronds can indicate a palm that is seriously in need of water.

I have noticed that chronically underwatered palms often gradually "pencil point" and the fronds become smaller and smaller, while the leaf color becomes pale and appears like a palm with a nutrient deficiency(s).  Combine chronic underwatering with nutrient deficiencies and the result is ghastly.  I see a lot of queen palms and now foxtail palms in the area like this.  Now that I think of it, some Phoenix commonly suffer this same fate locally when planted and forgotten.  Occasionally, Adonidia and Dypsis lutescens downtown look like this too.  Heck, I even see poorly sited Sabal palmetto on occasion that look underwatered and underfed.

-Michael

 

[ahosey01]

  On 9/15/2020 at 3:01 AM, palmsOrl said:

This can be tricky to differentiate.  As a 23 year palm enthusiast (but far from an expert), I would say I usually just "know it when I see it" in each of the two instances, which is not helpful toward the purpose of this thread, so let's see...

For potted palms, if the soil is staying soggy, is "mucky" or heaven forbid there is standing water for any significant length of time after a thorough watering or a heavy rain, the palm should be repotted into fresh soil of an appropriate mix for the species and into an appropriately-sized pot with adequate drainage holes (assuming the pot does not already meet these criteria).  Also, if there is a fetid, rotten odor to the soil, this is another sign the soil is staying too wet and that it indeed needs to be changed to fresh soil.  There are a few species that are exceptions to the above, such as Cyrtostachys renda, where the palm can be kept successfully in wet soil or even with the roots submerged in water.  Others, such as Sabal palmetto and Roystonea regia, for example, can grow in swampy conditions in habitat, but I have never tried them in a pot that stayed wet to see if this would work or not.  Even with these few palms (not an exhaustive list) that can grow in wet soil, I would immediately repot if I noticed a foul odor to the soil mix.

As for the palm itself, I have seen over-watered palms that start having the older leaves turn brown, or first yellow then fading to brown.  I have also seen "wet looking" gray or brown necrotic patches develop on the leaves, which indicates a fungal or possible bacterial infection has taken hold due to over-watering or sometimes due to keeping the crown of the palm wet, especially during periods of cooler temperatures.

Over-watering in clustering palms can manifest as some of the suckers, or even one by one, rotting at the base and pulling lose or collapsing.  Typically the base of the portion that pulled lose and the base it was attached to will be mushy and may have an odor present.  I had this happen last fall to some of the outer suckers on a Chamaedorea cataractum.  Fortunately, this was self-limiting, granted I did back off on watering and the palm is alive and extremely healthy today.

Underwatering, especially acute underwatering, is typically easier to spot and more easily rectified if immediate and ongoing corrective action is taken.  Obviously, the top of the soil (and perhaps extending to a greater depth) will be dry and this is easy to observe.  Oftentimes a palm, especially smaller palms will lack turgor and take on a flaccid, wilted appearance.  In my experience, this is usually easily corrected if the palm is promptly watered and adequate irrigation is then continued.  When I had my potted Cocos out on the lake shore in all day sun this Spring, they became really dry and several of them leaned over and the portion of the palms from the base on up to the petioles of the palms themselves got wobbly.  After several days of adequate moisture, they were standing straight up again.  Cocos can really take short-term drought quite well.

Another sign of underwatering can be curled up leaflets, browning tips or (like over-watering) a sudden progressive browning of the oldest leaves first and progressing to the newer fronds can indicate a palm that is seriously in need of water.

I have noticed that chronically underwatered palms often gradually "pencil point" and the fronds become smaller and smaller, while the leaf color becomes pale and appears like a palm with a nutrient deficiency(s).  Combine chronic underwatering with nutrient deficiencies and the result is ghastly.  I see a lot of queen palms and now foxtail palms in the area like this.  Now that I think of it, some Phoenix commonly suffer this same fate locally when planted and forgotten.  Occasionally, Adonidia and Dypsis lutescens downtown look like this too.  Heck, I even see poorly sited Sabal palmetto on occasion that look underwatered and underfed.

-Michael

 

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Per an arborist friend of mine, another common symptom of underwatering palmate palms (at least here in Arizona) is drying of the fronds where the leaf blades meet the petiole.  Often, an otherwise green leaf will have a slightly crispy center.

Edited September 15, 2020 by ahosey01

[Merlyn]

PalmsOrl has a good description, and it is hard to describe how to tell the difference.  A yellowing leaf could be just from old age, it could be a lack of nitrogen, and it could be overwatering.  My notes on it are:

Nitrogen deficiency: Older fronds turn light green uniformly, new fronds remain dark green until deficiency is really severe.

Overwatering: drooping fronds, turning yellowish or light green, and losing color.  Severe cases can show up as an iron deficiency, where the new spear comes out yellowish or even white.

Underwatering: Usually browning at the tips or edges of leaflets is first, followed by yellowing of the whole leaf.

As palmsOrl mentioned, you can easily get overwatering combined with a fungal infection.  In that case it's kinda hard to tell which is the initial problem, but you should be able to tell from the soil condition (soggy wet/mucky or dry) and local weather (hot and dry vs cool and rainy, etc).  Here's an example of a chronically overwatered Phoenix that I just transplanted yesterday from a neighbor.  It was in a corner next to a fence with very little direct sunlight, and the nearby soil was usually squishy and waterlogged, but not mucky or foul-smelling.

[Fruitcup]

Hello,

 

From these pictures, what do you think is the case with my newly planted Christmas Palm tree? Is it likely under or over watered? It was planted on the June 12th and I have been watering it regularly. There are some other problems in that the people installing it mixed fertilizer in with the potting soil at the base of the hole and on top of the palm once planted. They used a bag of palm specific potting soil and a bag of miracle grow soil with nutrients. I've now read that this is not a good thing to do.  Desperately want to save this tree. Thanks for any help!

[byuind]

being that this is less than a month in the ground at its new location i think you are probably still in that "transplant" time period where the plant is going to do some crazy things and probably look a little sickly overall. That Adonidia likes water so i doubt if you are overwatering it (unless you are giving it like 50 gallons a day or something).

Those brown spots could be sun damage form the nursery or wherever you pulled it from, or many other things stress related.  Leaves look nice and green so my guess is you are ok right now and its just stressed. Give it a few months to acclimate and then hit it with a sprinkling of Sunniland Fertilizer and you will probably see a huge difference by October - November in new growth. You are in Naples I see, so you have basically an all year growing season I would think. 

 

[Fruitcup]

Thanks byuind! It's been in the ground since June 12th. Do I still give it a heavy watering every day? I've been trying to water it 20-30 minutes each day. Thanks again!!!

[Phoenikakias]

The feeling of moisture on the finger tip!

[byuind]

Most conventional wisdom I got was that you should water every day for the first 30 days. If it was a 25 gallon root-ball, they would say one gallon of water per rootball gallon.

 

I know people who do less and some who do more and results are inconclusive. I like to use this method myself. After 30 days i back off to every 3rd day.

[Fruitcup]

The nursery told me 30 minutes per day, which is probably too long and more than 25 gallons, which is my root-ball size. Thanks byuind. 

 

[BS Man about Palms]

It is still hard for me to tell the difference easily after doing this 15 years. Add in long cool winters and slow draining clay and it's a balancing act. 

I have had my best luck with close observation for a while. If the palm is "happy", it will drain/use the water you give it, if not, the soil will stay wet. As a general rule, at least out here in So Cal I found more palms (at least at enthusiasts homes) overwatered versus underwatered. If you dig down 4-6" judge if the soil is dry, damp or wet, do this every 3-5 days until you establish a pattern. If wet, less water, if dry, more water. a light dampness is best. After a while you will know how much water the palm is using which equates to what it needs.

 

Over the years I've had many people amazed at and wondered at how many palms I kept going well in pots via hand watering.  I had just developed what I did without really thinking about it. I finally paid attention to what I did.... I mostly just paid attention to the heavy water users and would always hand water them often and the most, the others when I was trying to remember when I last watered seemed to be about right to give some.

 

The last struggle was planting out the potted palms. The heavy water users are the easiest. The light water users "eventually" need more, if I was not paying attention, they would dry out.  My most recent losses were the opposite. I finally automated a large part of my in-ground stuff, but my climate is not "day to day" and I had to pick intervals and times versus me being to decide when to turn on the water.  After being gone chunks of last summer, a few of my light to medium water users got overwatered and died. I have since reduced the watering times.

 

[Fruitcup]

  On 6/23/2023 at 7:11 PM, BS Man about Palms said:

It is still hard for me to tell the difference easily after doing this 15 years. Add in long cool winters and slow draining clay and it's a balancing act. 

I have had my best luck with close observation for a while. If the palm is "happy", it will drain/use the water you give it, if not, the soil will stay wet. As a general rule, at least out here in So Cal I found more palms (at least at enthusiasts homes) overwatered versus underwatered. If you dig down 4-6" judge if the soil is dry, damp or wet, do this every 3-5 days until you establish a pattern. If wet, less water, if dry, more water. a light dampness is best. After a while you will know how much water the palm is using which equates to what it needs.

 

Over the years I've had many people amazed at and wondered at how many palms I kept going well in pots via hand watering.  I had just developed what I did without really thinking about it. I finally paid attention to what I did.... I mostly just paid attention to the heavy water users and would always hand water them often and the most, the others when I was trying to remember when I last watered seemed to be about right to give some.

 

The last struggle was planting out the potted palms. The heavy water users are the easiest. The light water users "eventually" need more, if I was not paying attention, they would dry out.  My most recent losses were the opposite. I finally automated a large part of my in-ground stuff, but my climate is not "day to day" and I had to pick intervals and times versus me being to decide when to turn on the water.  After being gone chunks of last summer, a few of my light to medium water users got overwatered and died. I have since reduced the watering times.

 

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Thanks!