Most tropical looking palms for 9B?

[Palmfarmer]

14 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Durango city, Mexico. I would be zone pushing. Test out the limits. 

 

Btw, I've visited Guadiana park (20 years ago) . Loved the frogs they have (had) there.  (Insider Durango joke. I did visit it.) 

Really cool 20 years ago is some time, locals allways talk about how much colder it was 20-30 years ago.Never heard that one before, yes Royals grow fine so a lot of things should do fine, they just have very few palm entusiast. Coconuts actually do not seem to far off in a great microclimate. I have a Friend living in San Miguel Allende at 1910 meters and 2 degrees further south, very similar climate. It seems like you can get away with a lot more cold because of the dry air and next day heat. Here is his photos of his Cocos think he had them 3 years and last winter he provided 0 protection and there is a really big one in town as well. 

Here is the photo: 

 

[HolyNewBee]

On 2020/9/29 at AM8点09分, kinzyjr said:

@棕榈农

我附上了一份高达 9b 区的手掌列表供您参考。

您拥有的一个优势是您拥有干燥的气候，并且已经证明棕榈树在干燥地区通常比潮湿地区能在较低的温度下存活。无论您决定种植什么，祝您好运，让我们知道一切如何。

 

 

202009280000_9b_Palms.xlsx 29.86 kB · 35 次下载

@kinzyjr

Thanks your list. It helps me a lot. But I'm still wondering whether Gaussia gomez-pompae, Dypsis leptocheilos and Wodyetia bifurcata behaves well in warm-9b's freeze winter or they can't even survive. I'll be very gald if you could help me with this concern.

[kinzyjr]

9 minutes ago, HolyNewBee said:

Thanks your list. It helps me a lot. But I'm still wondering whether Gaussia gomez-pompae, Dypsis leptocheilos and Wodyetia bifurcata behaves well in warm-9b's freeze winter or they can't even survive. I'll be very gald if you could help me with this concern.

In the case of Dypsis leptocheilos and Wodyetia bifurcata, we have large specimens actively reproducing here.  I'm not certain about Guassia gomez-pompae.  We're either as mild a 9b as you can get or as chilly a 10a as you can get when it comes to subtropical climates.  The coldest parts of town average ~27F over 30 years while the warmest parts average just above 30F over 30 years. 

Of the two we have here, Wodyetia bifurcata is more common and grows well the entire way from the more rural northwest corner of the city (the chilliest part) to the southeast corner (a mild suburb environment). 

Dypsis leptocheilos is currently only planted in the city's interior and warm suburbs.  That doesn't mean it won't work elsewhere.  They are a palm that isn't available at big box stores, so you just don't see them planted often.  I have small plants of both species in my yard (mild, hilly suburb) and they grow very well through a chilly winter.

[HolyNewBee]

15 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

In the case of Dypsis leptocheilos and Wodyetia bifurcata, we have large specimens actively reproducing here.  I'm not certain about Guassia gomez-pompae.  We're either as mild a 9b as you can get or as chilly a 10a as you can get when it comes to subtropical climates.  The coldest parts of town average ~27F over 30 years while the warmest parts average just above 30F over 30 years. 

Of the two we have here, Wodyetia bifurcata is more common and grows well the entire way from the more rural northwest corner of the city (the chilliest part) to the southeast corner (a mild suburb environment). 

Dypsis leptocheilos is currently only planted in the city's interior and warm suburbs.  That doesn't mean it won't work elsewhere.  They are a palm that isn't available at big box stores, so you just don't see them planted often.  I have small plants of both species in my yard (mild, hilly suburb) and they grow very well through a chilly winter.

Thank you again. It‘s very kind of you to be the first person who answered my question seriosly in palmtalk, which makes me really excited. I'm not a native speaker of English and still learning,  I hope you could neglect my lexical&grammatical mistakes.

Back to the topic, I've already buy Dypsis leptocheilos and Wodyetia bifurcata, it seems desirable to get through winter without any protection based on your patient answer. It seems to be akward that Guilin is 10a zone strictly according to definition, easy to handle most 9b palms but difficult to cultivate 10a palms except for several hardy ones like Areca triandra and Caryota mitis. Compared to Lakeland, our winter is windy, humid, longer-term but rarely-below-freezing. We've got average low 31F and record low 29-30F in past 20 years meanwhile average temperature of the coldest months is 46-47F. China has completely different climate from US. Average low temperature doesn't distinguish well between cities with similar value but different vegetation, therefore we give priority to average temperature of the coldest months to describe different levels of subtropical and temperate zones. It has always been a headache to deal with our levels and US zones when introduce a new palm here. So I have to find someplace in US whose climate are closest to Guilin. Your list helps me a lot, it tells me that we've got many similarities in palms we could and couldn't cultivate and I think Lakeland is probably the best reference I'm looking for.

Because our climate is getting warmer in a decade, Wodyetia bifurcata trees appear and become common ornamental plants in warm residential areas. As Dypsis leptocheilos, the experts from local Botanical Garden have introduced several individuals 10 years ago, but they died of rare freezing in the 3rd winter. Now I can't spot any Dypsis leptocheilos individual in whole city except for my yard. I'll keep observing its growth during this winter.

One more question. I can find Copernicia hospita & fallaensis but not Copernicia baileyana in your list. So could you tell me how did Copernicia baileyana behave if there was a Copernicia baileyana tree in Lakelandor in your yard?

[Kailua_Krish]

5 hours ago, HolyNewBee said:

One more question. I can find Copernicia hospita & fallaensis but not Copernicia baileyana in your list. So could you tell me how did Copernicia baileyana behave if there was a Copernicia baileyana tree in Lakelandor in your yard?

I think you might have some trouble with the Copernicia genus based on what you're saying your temperatures are. Their native habitat has warm winters and Florida has warm winters with infrequent freezes.

Some of the montane species of pritchardia may do well there like Pritchardia minor and P. hardyi.

[kinzyjr]

8 hours ago, HolyNewBee said:

Thank you again. It‘s very kind of you to be the first person who answered my question seriosly in palmtalk, which makes me really excited. I'm not a native speaker of English and still learning,  I hope you could neglect my lexical&grammatical mistakes.

Back to the topic, I've already buy Dypsis leptocheilos and Wodyetia bifurcata, it seems desirable to get through winter without any protection based on your patient answer. It seems to be akward that Guilin is 10a zone strictly according to definition, easy to handle most 9b palms but difficult to cultivate 10a palms except for several hardy ones like Areca triandra and Caryota mitis. Compared to Lakeland, our winter is windy, humid, longer-term but rarely-below-freezing. We've got average low 31F and record low 29-30F in past 20 years meanwhile average temperature of the coldest months is 46-47F. China has completely different climate from US. Average low temperature doesn't distinguish well between cities with similar value but different vegetation, therefore we give priority to average temperature of the coldest months to describe different levels of subtropical and temperate zones. It has always been a headache to deal with our levels and US zones when introduce a new palm here. So I have to find someplace in US whose climate are closest to Guilin. Your list helps me a lot, it tells me that we've got many similarities in palms we could and couldn't cultivate and I think Lakeland is probably the best reference I'm looking for.

Because our climate is getting warmer in a decade, Wodyetia bifurcata trees appear and become common ornamental plants in warm residential areas. As Dypsis leptocheilos, the experts from local Botanical Garden have introduced several individuals 10 years ago, but they died of rare freezing in the 3rd winter. Now I can't spot any Dypsis leptocheilos individual in whole city except for my yard. I'll keep observing its growth during this winter.

One more question. I can find Copernicia hospita & fallaensis but not Copernicia baileyana in your list. So could you tell me how did Copernicia baileyana behave if there was a Copernicia baileyana tree in Lakelandor in your yard?

You're welcome.  I'll leave worrying about grammar and lexical mistakes to the language police.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.  Just because two climates are zone 10a doesn't mean the same plants will grow well in both.  I just got a cold drink out of my zone 10a refrigerator and there were no palms growing in there.  A more salient comparison is San Francisco, CA vs. Tampa, FL.  The climate regimes are very different, and as a result, the palms that grow successfully in one aren't necessarily going to grow well in the other.  Jubaea grow very well in San Francisco, but are almost impossible in Florida.  @Kailua_Krish hit the nail on the head regarding the climate factors that might give you issues with a few palms that tolerate Florida's cold spells.

I haven't seen any Copernicia baileyana here in town unfortunately.  However, almost any questions you might have concerning the potential of a particular species can be at least partially answered by the Cold Hardiness Master Data spreadsheet.  This spreadsheet contains a sortable, filterable list of all of the available cold exposure observations in the Freeze Forums and from CFPACS and the spreadsheet Dr. @Noblick put together.  Feel free to download the sheet and use it.  The Trebrown Nursery list rates Copernicia baileyana as a zone 10a palm, although the observations give this one a fighting chance at temperatures under 30F.  Here is an excerpt from the spreadsheet for Copernicia baileyana:

[sonoranfans]

Copernicia Baileyana, fallaensis, and hospita are solid 9B, more cold tolerant than foxtails, or leptocheilos or chambeyronia sp including the now oliviformis tht was previously kentiopsis.  In my yard these cuban copernicias have never had any leaf burn, something the others cant claim.  The copernicias do like heat to grow more quickly, and plenty of water but they can take a moderate drought.  My information says they all are good to 26F.  My yard has never been below 28F while I have lived here.

[Than]

Would Veitchia Joannis do well in 9b?

[Xenon]

Guilin is MUCH cooler than Lakeland which averages a January mean temperature above 60F. Lakeland has higher winter mean temps than even Guangzhou. Guilin actually has cooler winter mean temps than almost anywhere in Florida, a 47F mean temp is colder than even Tallahassee. 

I think stuff from New Caledonia would probably do well in your combination of cool winters and sweltering summers i.e Chambeyronia/Kentiopsis, Cyphophoenix, etc 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Xenon

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, ego said:

Would Veitchia Joannis do well in 9b?

At least thus far, the lowest temperature this species has been observed surviving is 28F (Cold Hardiness Master Data).  There are observations where the palm was confirmed to have been killed at 28.5F, 29.3F, 29F, and 24F.  Given those results, I'd advise against it.  I'm admittedly a poor example since I have Veitchia subdistichia in my yard.

[Than]

3 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

At least thus far, the lowest temperature this species has been observed surviving is 28F (Cold Hardiness Master Data).  There are observations where the palm was confirmed to have been killed at 28.5F, 29.3F, 29F, and 24F.  Given those results, I'd advise against it.  I'm admittedly a poor example since I have Veitchia subdistichia in my yard.

So it's rather 10a then. The lowest I get in my area is 34 so I think I wanna give it a try; if I find a seller here in Europe.

[BeyondTheGarden]

From Palmpedia, 

Cold Hardiness Zone: 10a. To 26 degrees F. if well established.

[HolyNewBee]

On 11/26/2021 at 2:30 AM, kinzyjr said:

You're welcome.  I'll leave worrying about grammar and lexical mistakes to the language police.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.  Just because two climates are zone 10a doesn't mean the same plants will grow well in both.  I just got a cold drink out of my zone 10a refrigerator and there were no palms growing in there.  A more salient comparison is San Francisco, CA vs. Tampa, FL.  The climate regimes are very different, and as a result, the palms that grow successfully in one aren't necessarily going to grow well in the other.  Jubaea grow very well in San Francisco, but are almost impossible in Florida.  @Kailua_Krish hit the nail on the head regarding the climate factors that might give you issues with a few palms that tolerate Florida's cold spells.

I haven't seen any Copernicia baileyana here in town unfortunately.  However, almost any questions you might have concerning the potential of a particular species can be at least partially answered by the Cold Hardiness Master Data spreadsheet.  This spreadsheet contains a sortable, filterable list of all of the available cold exposure observations in the Freeze Forums and from CFPACS and the spreadsheet Dr. @Noblick put together.  Feel free to download the sheet and use it.  The Trebrown Nursery list rates Copernicia baileyana as a zone 10a palm, although the observations give this one a fighting chance at temperatures under 30F.  Here is an excerpt from the spreadsheet for Copernicia baileyana:

Great! That's a fantastic task that staggers the imagination! I've download your spreadsheet. I'm going to keep my baileyana in pot so that I can move it in time when a big cold wave comes.

[HolyNewBee]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:25 AM, sonoranfans said:

Copernicia Baileyana, fallaensis, and hospita are solid 9B, more cold tolerant than foxtails, or leptocheilos or chambeyronia sp including the now oliviformis tht was previously kentiopsis.  In my yard these cuban copernicias have never had any leaf burn, something the others cant claim.  The copernicias do like heat to grow more quickly, and plenty of water but they can take a moderate drought.  My information says they all are good to 26F.  My yard has never been below 28F while I have lived here.

Thaks! You convince me it worth trying to cultivate a baileyana outdoors . I won't put baileyana in the ground immediately and I'll reconsider whether do it or not depends on how baileyana behaves in this winter.

[HolyNewBee]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:56 PM, Kailua_Krish said:

I think you might have some trouble with the Copernicia genus based on what you're saying your temperatures are. Their native habitat has warm winters and Florida has warm winters with infrequent freezes.

Some of the montane species of pritchardia may do well there like Pritchardia minor and P. hardyi.

Hhank you for your nice advice. Sadly we don't have any  hardy Pritchardia here. Maybe I'll get one in the future

[HolyNewBee]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:41 AM, Xenon said:

Guilin is MUCH cooler than Lakeland which averages a January mean temperature above 60F. Lakeland has higher winter mean temps than even Guangzhou. Guilin actually has cooler winter mean temps than almost anywhere in Florida, a 47F mean temp is colder than even Tallahassee. 

I think stuff from New Caledonia would probably do well in your combination of cool winters and sweltering summers i.e Chambeyronia/Kentiopsis, Cyphophoenix, etc 

 Yes, Guilin has a lower January mean temp, I ask my friend learning meteorology for statistics, and finally find it is actually 49℉ in past 10 years and 48℉ in past 20 years. But we've got a higher andmore stable average low temp which is 33℉ in past 10 years and 32℉ in past 20 years. I konw it sounds weird, incompatible and hard to understand, and that's also the proublem bother me a lot. I spend some time in analysing how it could happen, and here is why I think Guilin's climate is close to Lakeland:

1. ①There hardly stands lofty transverse range that  can block the cold air in central&east US. When cold waves come, they rush in and pass through quickly. ②The Gulf Stream helps to warm up soon after cold waves go away. Plus ① and ②, cold waves might often harass US and hit down temperature but it definitely won't remain for a long time. Temperature drops down lower and rises up faster and higher than south China. Therefore, the extreme low tempereature the main factor that restricts palnts' growth in US, and using average low temperature to divide USDA zone sounds more reasonable.
2. ③We've got 2 lofty transverse range (Qinling and Nanling) in China. When cold waves come to southern region, they are weakened by layers and even if they climb over the mountains thet probably turn into mild cold air. ④Once a big cold wave climbs over transverse ranges and impacts the south China, it will conflict with warm front and bring low temperature and overcast rain which last for several days. Plus ③ and ④, we mainly have a humid and cool period of several days in January where temperature of each day stablize from a lower maximum to a higher minimum than Florida. Therefore, the most important factor that limits growth of plants in south China, is how long the humid and cool period last for,  and using mean January temperature to describe different zones is more objective.

• Above two factors, each palys its critical role in different countries. If we consider only one factor when compare to two cites from different countries, something interesting will happen. For example, Guangzhou shares a same average mean January temp with Lakeland. But from the aspect of average low temp, Guangzhou is a strict 10b city whose average low temp is much higher than Lakeland's. And as a fact, Guangzhou does have lots of 10b palms like Hyophorbe lagenicaulis and Cocos nucifera in gardening and greening without any protection, meanwhile Lakeland hasn't. On the other hand, Guilin has a average low temp of 32.26℉ in past 20 years close to Lakeland's, but a much lower mean January temp. In this condition, Lakeland is kind to palms with better drought tolerant, meanwhile Guilin does well to some palms with waterlogging tolerant, such as Arenga hookeriana and Areca triandra. 
• So trouble comes when I introduce one species from US to south China, we've got totally different mean temps which I used to use, and average low temp doesn't work well. Then I come up with choosing some common species to determine. I can find a ctiy similar to Guilin where Archontophoenix alexandrae lives with almost no damage but Roystonea regia struggles. In my mind, royal palms without any protection are hard to survive a harsh winter in both Guilin and Lakeland. 

Is there any other city more cloer to Guilin in Florida where Archontophoenix alexandrae lives with almost no damage but Roystonea regia struggles? It mustn't be in California or Arizona because of Guilin's humid climate. I hope to get more suggetions. And thank you for your kind recommendation, I've bought a Chambeyronia macrocarpa and I'll keep observing in this winter. And there is no purchase channel for Cyphophoenix. Pity.

[Xenon]

17 minutes ago, HolyNewBee said:

 

• Above two factors, each palys its critical role in different countries. If we consider only one factor when compare to two cites from different countries, something interesting will happen. For example, Guangzhou shares a same average mean January temp with Lakeland. But from the aspect of average low temp, Guangzhou is a strict 10b city whose average low temp is much higher than Lakeland's. And as a fact, Guangzhou does have lots of 10b palms like Hyophorbe lagenicaulis and Cocos nucifera in gardening and greening without any protection, meanwhile Lakeland hasn't. On the other hand, Guilin has a average low temp of 32.26℉ in past 20 years close to Lakeland's, but a much lower mean January temp. In this condition, Lakeland is kind to palms with better drought tolerant, meanwhile Guilin does well to some palms with waterlogging tolerant, such as Arenga hookeriana and Areca triandra. 
• So trouble comes when I introduce one species from US to south China, we've got totally different mean temps which I used to use, and average low temp doesn't work well. Then I come up with choosing some common species to determine. I can find a ctiy similar to Guilin where Archontophoenix alexandrae lives with almost no damage but Roystonea regia struggles. In my mind, royal palms without any protection are hard to survive a harsh winter in both Guilin and Lakeland. 

 

I think your assessment here isn't quite correct. Coconuts can grow to maturity and produce fruit in Lakeland and Roystonea grows easily. Look at the "zone 10 Orlando thread" or Tampa threads, they are all very similar climates. 

Lakeland mean temp is warmer than Guangzhou so I don't think it's a fair comparison with Guilin at all. 

[sonoranfans]

7 hours ago, HolyNewBee said:

Thaks! You convince me it worth trying to cultivate a baileyana outdoors . I won't put baileyana in the ground immediately and I'll reconsider whether do it or not depends on how baileyana behaves in this winter.

make sure the bailey gets several hours of sun a day to be healthy.  Any young palm will get more cold hardy when in the ground and rooted.  You can always tent it in the coldest time with shadecloth to limit low temps that the palm sees.  Bailey wont grow much until its in the ground for a year or two, then growth rate increases as it matures.  My bailey is over 15' tall now with about 4' clear trunk after 10 years from a ~3 gallon plant 10" tall.

[coco305]

I would say the Bangalow palm, it is relatively cold hardy and looks pretty tropical.  Also the canary island date, I guess it's not tropical and more Mediterranean but still looks exotic.

[HolyNewBee]

22 hours ago, Xenon said:

I think your assessment here isn't quite correct. Coconuts can grow to maturity and produce fruit in Lakeland and Roystonea grows easily. Look at the "zone 10 Orlando thread" or Tampa threads, they are all very similar climates. 

Lakeland mean temp is warmer than Guangzhou so I don't think it's a fair comparison with Guilin at all. 

Oh, I see... I should look for another city.

[Kailua_Krish]

4 minutes ago, HolyNewBee said:

Oh, I see... I should look for another city.

It might be hard to find a match in US I wonder if Australia has any like it? You may have to experiment and just try different things that are known to be cool tolerant but can also tolerate moisture.

[HolyNewBee]

22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

make sure the bailey gets several hours of sun a day to be healthy.  Any young palm will get more cold hardy when in the ground and rooted.  You can always tent it in the coldest time with shadecloth to limit low temps that the palm sees.  Bailey wont grow much until its in the ground for a year or two, then growth rate increases as it matures.  My bailey is over 15' tall now with about 4' clear trunk after 10 years from a ~3 gallon plant 10" tall.

Wow! Amazing growth! I bought one taller than 7' in a 10 gallon pot and I re-pot it into 18 gallon. Hope it roots as soon as possible! And I'll give some protetion as you said if neccesary.

[HolyNewBee]

8 minutes ago, Kailua_Krish said:

It might be hard to find a match in US I wonder if Australia has any like it? You may have to experiment and just try different things that are known to be cool tolerant but can also tolerate moisture.

I used to find there is also a subtropical monsoon climate region in southeastern Australia. Maybe Melbourne? I'm not sure.

[Than]

On 9/30/2020 at 11:40 PM, Palmfarmer said:

Really cool 20 years ago is some time, locals allways talk about how much colder it was 20-30 years ago.Never heard that one before, yes Royals grow fine so a lot of things should do fine, they just have very few palm entusiast. Coconuts actually do not seem to far off in a great microclimate. I have a Friend living in San Miguel Allende at 1910 meters and 2 degrees further south, very similar climate. It seems like you can get away with a lot more cold because of the dry air and next day heat. Here is his photos of his Cocos think he had them 3 years and last winter he provided 0 protection and there is a really big one in town as well. 

Here is the photo: 

 

Wow this is impressive.  According to Wikipedia, the average low temperature in San Miguel Allende is 6 C and some nights it can be below zero. And a cocos survives there without protection?