butia or butia hybrid?

[sonoranfans]

I rescued a 24" box "pindo" labeled palm from the home depot in late april this year.  It was baking in the dry heat on pavement with no overhead shade, and I thought it such a shame that it might just sit there and defoliate as the hot dry season wore on.  Since i had an open spot due to a hard freeze dieback, I decided to buy it.  I thought it looked like a "pindo" or butia capitata pretty much at the time.  Now as I look at it and compare to my other butias its proportion is more tall and less wide, fronds seem shorter, or not as recurved as my other butias.  Does anyone here recognize anything that might suggest a hybrid?

[macario]

I have seen palms grow like thatover time when theres to many crowded together. Or maybe it could be just a normal variance for butia.

Im by no means an expert lol I could be wrong

[Walt]

My guess it's pure butia. There's just so much form variance in this species.

I have an elderly nurseryman friend who owns a wholesale nursery. He buys Butia capitata by the multiple hundreds. I walked row after row of potted butias with him. He pointed out (and tagged) some extra special ones that just looked so much better. He also has an eye to pick out the hybrid butiagrus at a young age. He might find several butiagrus palms in a batch of a few hundered pindos. Naturally, he pulls them and sets them aside and sells them for much bigger bucks.

[DoomsDave]

Gilbert:

Give us a closeup.  

Looks like  a pure Boot, but a closeup of the "trunk" will help a lot.

dave

[sonoranfans]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Jul. 19 2007,16:42)

QUOTE

Gilbert:

Give us a closeup.  

Looks like  a pure Boot, but a closeup of the "trunk" will help a lot.

dave

Here is the closeup of the trunk, Dave

Tom

[PalmGuyWC]

This is another good example of how varied one species can be. Years ago I bought 3 Butia capitatas. As smaller plants they all looked the same, but as they grew up they all looked different.  They had different growth habits, different colored flowers, and different colored fruit, and yet they came from the same source. I think palms are as varied as humans, if only we could discern the subtle differences.

Dick

[sonoranfans]

(PalmGuyWC @ Jul. 19 2007,17:11)

QUOTE

This is another good example of how varied one species can be. Years ago I bought 3 Butia capitatas. As smaller plants they all looked the same, but as they grew up they all looked different.  They had different growth habits, different colored flowers, and different colored fruit, and yet they came from the same source. I think palms are as varied as humans, if only we could discern the subtle differences.

Dick

I have 7 butias and before this one, they fell into 2 classes.

The first class( of 4) is recurved, but wilting leaf tips that cannot overcome gravity, tends to be a yellow/green and seems more sensitive to heat/sun, tends to burn in the heat.  

The second group(of 2) is recurved/rigid, they are colored a grey/green, not yellow at all, and seem to be tougher in the hot/dry season, even the smaller one.  The tips defy gravity, overwhelmingly point upwards.  

Now this one pictured above seems to have a smaller trunk diameter(~3/4's of the others) for its height, and petiole spacing is somewhat increased on the trunk.  It also obviously doesnt have as strongly recurved petioles.  

Perhaps the natural variations are even greater than in my small sample.

[soro]

I don't think it is a hybrid, perhaps just a natural variation. There is a Butia growing along Wairoa - Gisborne highway (on the attached photo) which has similar habit but very blue leaves... Another thing which comes to mind is that it could be just a sudden flush of new growth. Count how many leaflets are on the new leaves, compared to the old ones... It happened on one of my container grown, neglected Butias after it was planted in the ground. The trunk was quite small initially but later "caught up" with the leaves.

Marian(o)

[Kris]

Very nice topic and there are lovely visuals too ! and iam watching the discussion closely...

Love,

Kris  

[sonoranfans]

(soro @ Aug. 06 2007,02:32)

QUOTE

I don't think it is a hybrid, perhaps just a natural variation. There is a Butia growing along Wairoa - Gisborne highway (on the attached photo) which has similar habit but very blue leaves... Another thing which comes to mind is that it could be just a sudden flush of new growth. Count how many leaflets are on the new leaves, compared to the old ones... It happened on one of my container grown, neglected Butias after it was planted in the ground. The trunk was quite small initially but later "caught up" with the leaves.

Marian(o)

Wow I am amazed at the variations in butias even more now!  That one seems to be a little like the one I have, its upright, shorter palms, but mine is not that shade of blue/green.  that one also has a pretty narrow diameter trunk compared to some of mine.  The new growth on my upright butia seems no different, the palms continue to be on the "short" side with not so many leaves as other specimens I have.  I am begining to believe the "abused" by packing into a tight space explanation.  Every time I go to home depot I see palms that appear to need to be "rescued".

[merrill]

Hi, sonoranfans:

Your Butia strikes me as quite atypical, possibly with some Jubaea inheritance.  The fibers on the base of the petioles are usually seen only on offspring of Jubaea pollinated by Butia, or the quite rare [at least in Florida] Butia eriospatha.  They also appear in at least two generations of JXB backcrosses where Jubaea is always contained in the mother.  My very limited experience suggests this is much less true in Butia X Jubaea..  These fibrous petioles are far more common now than before the JXB hybrids became as prevalent as they are now.  I apologise for any part I had in their prevalence, but it is still possible to get unadulterated Butia.

Hi, Walt:

Many years ago you were very hospitable in hosting a Palm Society meeting.  You had a triangle of three Butia in the back yard; I suggested one of them had some Jubaea in it.  It was very noisy, don't think you could have heard me.  I wouldn't even hint at this, except you are very generous in posting photos.  Any chance of your posting the 3 Butia, if they're still there?  Best wishes, merrill

[sonoranfans]

(merrill @ Aug. 06 2007,11:55)

QUOTE

Hi, sonoranfans:

Your Butia strikes me as quite atypical, possibly with some Jubaea inheritance.  The fibers on the base of the petioles are usually seen only on offspring of Jubaea pollinated by Butia, or the quite rare [at least in Florida] Butia eriospatha.  They also appear in at least two generations of JXB backcrosses where Jubaea is always contained in the mother.  My very limited experience suggests this is much less true in Butia X Jubaea..  These fibrous petioles are far more common now than before the JXB hybrids became as prevalent as they are now.  I apologise for any part I had in their prevalence, but it is still possible to get unadulterated Butia.

Hi, Walt:

Many years ago you were very hospitable in hosting a Palm Society meeting.  You had a triangle of three Butia in the back yard; I suggested one of them had some Jubaea in it.  It was very noisy, don't think you could have heard me.  I wouldn't even hint at this, except you are very generous in posting photos.  Any chance of your posting the 3 Butia, if they're still there?  Best wishes, merrill

Thanks for the insightful comments merill.  I have a number of other butias, so if there is some hybrid content that you had a part in, thanks I like the variations.

Tom

[Walt]

(merrill @ Aug. 06 2007,11:55)

QUOTE

Hi, sonoranfans:

Your Butia strikes me as quite atypical, possibly with some Jubaea inheritance.  The fibers on the base of the petioles are usually seen only on offspring of Jubaea pollinated by Butia, or the quite rare [at least in Florida] Butia eriospatha.  They also appear in at least two generations of JXB backcrosses where Jubaea is always contained in the mother.  My very limited experience suggests this is much less true in Butia X Jubaea..  These fibrous petioles are far more common now than before the JXB hybrids became as prevalent as they are now.  I apologise for any part I had in their prevalence, but it is still possible to get unadulterated Butia.

Hi, Walt:

Many years ago you were very hospitable in hosting a Palm Society meeting.  You had a triangle of three Butia in the back yard; I suggested one of them had some Jubaea in it.  It was very noisy, don't think you could have heard me.  I wouldn't even hint at this, except you are very generous in posting photos.  Any chance of your posting the 3 Butia, if they're still there?  Best wishes, merrill

Hi, Merrill.

I recall you looking at that particular butia of mine. I only have two, but the third leg of the triangle was probably the xButiagrus.

The butia in question is not nearly as recurved as my other one, and the leaf segments seem to be more featherly and on a more even plane.

The photo of said butia  (and older 2005 photo which I must update now that I realize it) is number 64 on my slideshow.

Link to slideshow here:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/slidesh....wCtm8qr

As you can see, things have changed since your visit in June of 2003 (you are in one of the slideshow photos, BTW)

Walt

[soro]

Merrill,

all my Butias are pretty hairy (first photo) and they have no trace of Jubaea in them (at least I can't tell). My Jubutia F2 (Tauranga) has even less hair than my alleged pure Butias (2nd photo with my hand). I think it is a natural variation. I noticed that in general Butias in New Zealand with greener leaves have more hair than the ones with blue leaves.

Marian(o)

[soro]

How does one add multiple images?

Jubutia follows...

[merrill]

Group: Forum Members

Posts: 5

Joined: Dec. 2006

 Posted on: Aug. 07 2007,02:15        

QUOTING Marian(o):

--

Merrill,

all my Butias are pretty hairy (first photo) and they have no trace of Jubaea in them (at least I can't tell). My Jubutia F2 (Tauranga) has even less hair than my alleged pure Butias (2nd photo with my hand). I think it is a natural variation. I noticed that in general Butias in New Zealand with greener leaves have more hair than the ones with blue leaves.

Marian(o) END QUOTE

Hi, Soro:

Your postings are very interesting.  In retrospect, we may both be a bit audacious to conduct this discussion from a continent [or more] distant from the natural range of Butia.  My apologies for all the questions!  Do you know the provenance of your local Butia?  Any chance they are partly Butia eriospathe, which does have fibrous petioles?  I recently bought some small B. eriospathe about 2 feet tall, and they are indistinguishable [for me] from capitata, except for the fibrous petioles.  In Observations of Butia over forty years here, there have about two Butia out of an original hundred or more w/ fibrous petioles until recently.  In recent years, several palm growers in my area have been growing various Jubaea/Butia hybrids which have routinely had fibrous petioles, and fibrous petioles have become quite common.  Collectively, we have contaminated the local germ plasm.

Was your JXB F2 from a JXB mother?  Quite a few years ago, some of us in Florida started growing JXB mixtures.  We are up to ([JXB]XB)XB; some may be further.  Locally,. Joey Henderson has about 100 mature Jubutia.  These all have very fibrous petioles.  My observations are based on about 200 local Butia.  Thank you for your comments, merrill

[soro]

Merrill,

All I know about my Butias is they were grown locally from local seeds. It may be in fact B. eriospatha as you suggest but it has not flowered yet so it is hard to tell. Maybe in fact what we refer to as Butia capitata here is another Butia species or a Butia hybrid (greener and wider leaflets and hairy petioles  vs narrow and blue leaflets and petioles with little hair might suggest that) but it does not necessarily mean they have Jubaea genes. There not that many mature Jubaeas around ... unless the first Butia plants brought into New Zealand were already contaminated with Jubaea genes or people kept importing seeds of hybrids. (but what made you thinking that hairy petioles are result of hybridizing with Jubaea?) All these are hard to prove unless we resort to DNA analysis. It would be good if someone from Brazil could comment on natural variation of Butia capitata in their native habitat if in fact there is such species as Butia capitata still left or ever existed.

My Jubutia is from Tauranga mother. Now we can start another discussion wether these are self pollinated or cross pollinated from Butias of Jubaea nearby... The fact that the same plant can bear 2 types of fruit  would suggest pollination from 2 sources. For the most part Butias around the Tauranga Jubutia flower at different times then the Jubutia itself. Malcolm could comment on that further...  I have seen about dozen of Jubutias from the same seed batch as mine and they all loked different from each other. Cheers, Marian(o)