New to Palms- Experimenting in zone 8b/9b

[IRQVET]

So we recently moved from Oregon to Florida in an area where, depending which USDA plant hardiness map you look at, it appears we're in an area right on the boarder where multiple plant hardiness zones converge. Most maps indicate zone 8b so for all intensive purposes I guess that is what we'll go with moving forward. All I know is I'm 5 miles from the gulf of mexico, but it doesn't feel like a atypical coastal area (like on the west coast) where you'd typically experience cooler tempatures and a ton of wind. 

Oregon is great for growing all sorts of fruits, but here in my area of Florida its known for three items; palms, citrus, and peaches. So I have planted all three of these but I have to admit I know zip/ nada about palms. 

I've planted two Mexican Fan Palms (i think) and two Majesty Palms to start with. I'm sitting on 1.3 acres of land, so I will be planting more in the future as my knowledge increases. I believe the Mexican Fan Palms will do well here, but the Majesty palms I'm not 100% sure about. I got some palm fertilizer from from Southern Ag and one gallon of cold pressed neem oil that I'll use for pest control. 

Mine have been in the ground for a few months already (planted them when we moved in-in late August). Soil mixture was a combination of native soil (sandy loom) and Miricle Grow planting mix. All I know about the Majesty palms is that I need to keep them wet. But I use wood mulch so I'm concerned about steam/ root rot if I keep it too wet. But then again, maybe that's not a concern with palms (I have no idea).

Other non palm varities I've planted include:

Meyer Lemons

Varigated "Pink" Lemons

Tangelno

Limes

Florida King Peach

Kieffer Pear (Another experiment)

Any input moving forward would be appreciated. 

 

[climate change virginia]

18 minutes ago, IRQVET said:

So we recently moved from Oregon to Florida in an area where, depending which USDA plant hardiness map you look at, it appears we're in an area right on the boarder where multiple plant hardiness zones converge. Most maps indicate zone 8b so for all intensive purposes I guess that is what we'll go with moving forward. All I know is I'm 5 miles from the gulf of mexico, but it doesn't feel like a atypical coastal area (like on the west coast) where you'd typically experience cooler tempatures and a ton of wind. 

Oregon is great for growing all sorts of fruits, but here in my area of Florida its known for three items; palms, citrus, and peaches. So I have planted all three of these but I have to admit I know zip/ nada about palms. 

I've planted two Mexican Fan Palms (i think) and two Majesty Palms to start with. I'm sitting on 1.3 acres of land, so I will be planting more in the future as my knowledge increases. I believe the Mexican Fan Palms will do well here, but the Majesty palms I'm not 100% sure about. I got some palm fertilizer from from Southern Ag and one gallon of cold pressed neem oil that I'll use for pest control. 

Mine have been in the ground for a few months already (planted them when we moved in-in late August). Soil mixture was a combination of native soil (sandy loom) and Miricle Grow planting mix. All I know about the Majesty palms is that I need to keep them wet. But I use wood mulch so I'm concerned about steam/ root rot if I keep it too wet. But then again, maybe that's not a concern with palms (I have no idea).

Other non palm varities I've planted include:

Meyer Lemons

Varigated "Pink" Lemons

Tangelno

Limes

Florida King Peach

Kieffer Pear (Another experiment)

Any input moving forward would be appreciated. 

 

Try some date palms and Queens and butia dont forget Dypsis decipiens

[Chester B]

Well so long, hope you don't like bugs

I don't grow palms in Florida but I have a couple of suggestion for you, that should be bullet proof, and can get you started as you learn more and more about what will do well in your area.

How about your local native palm - Sabal palmetto?  You might even be able to find some growing locally in the wild.

Mule palm - you should be able to find these in your local big box.  Care free, cold hardy and very attractive,

You have another few native palms that will do well although they are more shrubby - Sabal minor, Rhapidophyllum hystrix "Needle palm", Serenoa repens "saw palmetto"

I'd probably steer clear of queen palms as they are messy, water hogs, nutrient hogs and don't always look that great.  Most people on here like to dissuade people from getting them based on experience.

Unfortunately if you really are 8B those majesties will be toast once you get some cold weather, this is where I think you would do better with a Mule palm.

If you narrow down your location better, there are a lot of people on here from Florida that should be able to tell you what they are growing in your local area.

Good luck and I hope it was a smooth move.  Moving cross continent is a real pain, I know from experience.

 

 

[Keys6505]

What kinds of palms have you seen in landscapes near your property?  Chances are if you don't see any of a certain species you probably can't grow it.  Or not for long anyway.

[Fusca]

13 hours ago, IRQVET said:

I've planted two Mexican Fan Palms (i think) and two Majesty Palms to start with.

You're correct about the Mexican fan palms (Washingtonia robusta or filibusta).  I'm guessing from your description and the number of pines I see in the photos you are in the panhandle.  Chester is right, you might get to enjoy the majesties for a year or two if you provide them some protection on the frigid nights below 25°F since it doesn't appear that you have any overhead canopy for them.  If you can keep them alive through the winter (they'll get damaged) and keep them well watered, they can come back since they grow pretty fast.  Sabals, mule palms, pindo palms (Butia sp.) and green Mediterranean fan palms (Chamaerops humilis) will do well in your location without winter protection (after they are established).  Welcome to PalmTalk and thank you for your service!

Jon

Edited November 21, 2020 by Fusca

[Kailua_Krish]

Depending on what area of Florida that climate line can vary a lot. There are a lot of things you can grow on the 8b/9a border. There is an old thread of mine here that shows my garden in Ocala (8b/9a inland climate). First priority should be establishing canopy anywhere you want more tropical looking plants and palm canopy isn't sufficient, you need something like oak. Then in the sunny areas use palms like the mules and other hybrids and livistona for your larger species. Id try to avoid Queens and Washingtonia if I was doing it again.

[Merlyn]

As others have mentioned, the Majesties are probably not long-term survivors.  Pindos (Butia Odorata), Butia x Jubaea and Jubaea x Butia hybrids, Mules, Chamaerops Humilis (European fan palm) are all good choices.  Others to consider are:

Arenga Engleri: moderate burn around 22F

Allagoptera Arenaria defoliated around 20F but regrew

Silver Bismarckia some are undamaged around 20F, others take significant damage around 25F.  Silver types are much hardier than green types.

Livistona Chinensis ok to low 20s

Sabal Uresana, Mexicana, Minor, Domingensis and Causiarum - some can survive mid teens with no damage

It really depends on the area's actual low temperatures.  If it regularly drops into the low 20s then that really restricts your options.  If it regularly hits upper teens then a lot of stuff just won't survive repeated cold fronts.  I'd check the historical data on Weather Underground for your local airport.  For example, January 18th 2018 was a brutally cold night here in Central Florida at 25F low.   Just pick your station here and look for the "full month" view in January and February.  That'll give you a better idea of what might survive in the ground there.  Here's an example of the Orlando Sanford airport.  Most nights were well above 40F, except for a couple of nights in early January and the 18th:

https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/us/fl/sanford/KSFB/date/2018-1

[IRQVET]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:13 PM, Keys6505 said:

What kinds of palms have you seen in landscapes near your property?  Chances are if you don't see any of a certain species you probably can't grow it.  Or not for long anyway.

Thats a great point, I didn't think to look at others around the neighborhood. One poblem being, the subdivision we bought into a relatively new; less than 18 months old. So most of the neighbors don't have established landscapes yet. I have one neighbor who purchased a few palms, but they were already 15 feet tall when he had them planted. I have no idea what kind of palm they are, but they look great.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by IRQVET

[DAVEinMB]

29 minutes ago, IRQVET said:

Thats a great point, I didn't think to look at others around the neighborhood. One poblem being, the subdivision we bought into a relatively new; less than 18 months old. So most of the neighbors don't have established landscapes yet. I have one neighbor who purchased a few palms, but they were already 15 feet tall when he had them planted. I have no idea what kind of palm they are, but they look great.

 

 

Those are sabal palmettos, native to the southeast and are typically inexpensive even for larger specimens. I've seen them as low as $140 here with 10-12' of clear trunk. 

[IRQVET]

Do any of those cold hardy palms mentioned have a smooth truck and quick growth rate?

So the panhandle is in the middle of freezing nightitme temperatures. I covered my citrus but ran out of plankets to cover the Majestics. Came out this morning and noticed the limbs are snapping, so I don't think they will be long for this world. 

[Dartolution]

@IRQVET First, Welcome to the forum.

You'll get a great amount of advise, suggestions, and knowledge from talking to people here and observing what palms are planted in your area.

I think everyone has got you covered with what they have suggested.

Majestys may be better left for patio palms in containers perhaps. 

If you'd like a pinnate palm then Butia or Mule palms, or plenty of the listed hybrids here will serve you well

If you like to read, check out the book "The Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms." This is one of my favorites. 

Happy gardening! 

 

[Estlander]

Sorry to see the damage to your Majesties. I don’t know where in the panhandle you are, but I don’t think it went low enough anywhere here to cause damage to Majesties just yet. Maybe the weight of the blankets snapped the fronds? 
Also, you’ve planted yours way out in the open exposed to winds, frost, etc.  To give them the best chance here, it’s better to plant them closer to the house or under some kind of canopy. 
Of course, even then they’d need some kind of protection every now and then.

I’m also on the panhandle, but in a more protected spot - 2 miles from the Gulf and half a mile from a large Bay to the north. 

Have two Majesties planted as well. They’ve been in the ground since October 2017. The defoliated in the January 2018 freeze after a night of 23F low, but have been fine ever since. 
Here’s my larger one this morning. It’s getting big and is now starting to peek over the roofline.

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Estlander

[Matthew92]

3 hours ago, IRQVET said:

Do any of those cold hardy palms mentioned have a smooth truck and quick growth rate?

So the panhandle is in the middle of freezing nightitme temperatures. I covered my citrus but ran out of plankets to cover the Majestics. Came out this morning and noticed the limbs are snapping, so I don't think they will be long for this world. 

Welcome to the forum, and I'm excited to see how your yard progresses. I tried Majesties in the ground before, but honestly found them to be kind of wimpy in FL Panhandle conditions without dedicated protection. Estlander (comment above) has had luck with them due to a microclimate that is found only in an extremely small percentage of the entire FL Panhandle as well as an anomalously warm last couple of winters.  Apparently they are bud hardy into the mid to even low 20's, but look horribly unsightly with even light freezes without protection. The one I had browned in temps as "high" as 28-29 F, which there was plenty of in the last two nights in most of the FL Panhandle. You can see what happened to mine from my comments in this thread from the "warm" 2015-2016 winter (25 deg ultimate low) Newly Planted Ravenea in zone 8b - DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE - PalmTalk Also, apparently there are a few Majesties that have survived in a microclimate area of Tallahassee for quite a few years, but the fronds are mostly killed off most winters and they look stunted and are more of a curiosity than attractive landscape specimens.

Unless you are able to provide very dedicated protection, I'd replace with another good substitute such as a mule palm or any hybrid with a Butia palm, or if you're willing to go with a fan palm, a Livistona nitida for a more exotic look.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Matthew92

[IRQVET]

Being new to palms I underestimated the need to protect them. I'm in Wakulla County FL about 5 miles from the waters of the gulf. When I woke up this a.m. it was 26 degrees. I have no idea what the nighttime temps were other than they were quite low. All the branches that snapped off I trimmed a few moments ago. Now my palm is 2 feet lower than it was just yesterday. Frustrating but hey, at least I found this forum now and I can begin educating myself. I just wish I would have found this place in August when I bought the Majestics; such is life. 

[climate change virginia]

frost is a majesty palms's kryptonite

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, IRQVET said:

Being new to palms I underestimated the need to protect them. I'm in Wakulla County FL about 5 miles from the waters of the gulf. When I woke up this a.m. it was 26 degrees. I have no idea what the nighttime temps were other than they were quite low. All the branches that snapped off I trimmed a few moments ago. Now my palm is 2 feet lower than it was just yesterday. Frustrating but hey, at least I found this forum now and I can begin educating myself. I just wish I would have found this place in August when I bought the Majestics; such is life. 

Here in Oregon, we haven't been that cold yet.  As you know it is surprisingly mild here, I haven't been below 25F in the last 3 years and those temps only showed up a handful of times.  You should be able to grow all the same palms as here, and a few more due to the drier winters.  I think you're probably looking at 30+ species for your area, I know I have around 23 different species in the ground here in the Portland area (zone 8B), with a few more species that I'm growing out.

Butia and mules are your best bet for a pinnate palm, Jubaea don't like Florida.

However Sabal palmettos can look really great and are a native, so that mean trouble free.  If you're looking for something even more impressive look for Sabal causiarum.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Chester B

[necturus]

Can you move the majesties to the south side of your house? Probably your best chance of keeping them alive. 

[8B palms]

Welcome to palm talk. There are many awesome palm which can grown in the cooler reginions of Florida.  You'll get plenty of excellent advice from many people who have tried and struggled and on occasion succeeded. There are many books which you can get lost in but I have found the one listed below has been really helpful. 

[buffy]

Your citrus probably won't survive in the ground. You want to grow Satsuma Mandarin Oranges. 'Owari' is the cultivar that can take the cold the best (Texas A&M has a few selections they claim are even more cold hardy).  The oranges are ripe around Thanksgiving and they're phenomenal to eat. Plant some fig trees, some cold hardy dwarf desert-type bananas and some pomegranates.  

[Dartolution]

@8B palms Where can I find that book? I have been accumulating palm cultivation books for the last couple of years. 

 

[kinzyjr]

1 minute ago, Dartolution said:

@8B palms Where can I find that book? I have been accumulating palm cultivation books for the last couple of years. 

 

They have used ones on sale on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Hardy-Palms-Southeast-Growing-Outdoors/dp/0977346617/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2WHJC17KCVOEJ&dchild=1&keywords=hardy+palms+for+the+southeast&qid=1607008944&sprefix=Hardy+Palms+for+%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1

[Matthew92]

2 hours ago, buffy said:

Your citrus probably won't survive in the ground. You want to grow Satsuma Mandarin Oranges. 'Owari' is the cultivar that can take the cold the best (Texas A&M has a few selections they claim are even more cold hardy).  The oranges are ripe around Thanksgiving and they're phenomenal to eat. Plant some fig trees, some cold hardy dwarf desert-type bananas and some pomegranates.  

@IRQVET The lime and variegated lemon will probably not survive hard freezes events (low 20's and below) unprotected. However, there are many other options (and yes Satsumas are one of the best options as @buffy mentioned). Check out this thread I started about my experience with growing citrus in this zone. Growing Citrus in Marginal (colder) Zones - TROPICAL LOOKING PLANTS - Other Than Palms - PalmTalk

Here are also another couple good articles from University of FL

CH02900.PDF (ufl.edu) 

2018_june_coldhardy.pdf (ufl.edu) 

Additionally, in your county is a great nursery called Just Fruits and Exotics in Crawfordsville (which you may already know about). Their website has good listing of each tree's cold hardiness and the people there are knowledgeable and would definitely help if you visited. 

Just Fruits and Exotics | Family-Owned and Operated Since 1978

[Estlander]

As has been mentioned several times, I’d also suggest replacing your Majesties with Mule palms. Pindos and Sabals are just too common. With Mules your yard wouldn’t look like every other one on the street. 
 

And since there’s some variability to their look, they can, in a way, look like two different palms even. 
Some take it after Pindo palms with more upright orderly fronds and erect leaflets looking kind of like a green Pindo. While others are more Queen looking with droopy leaflets. 
Here are my two larger ones to give you an idea. 

[Dartolution]

@Estlander Both of those are stunning examples of the leaflet variability. 

To echo what Estlander stated, there is also additional variability in the petiole color for mules; some having deep purple, almost black petioles, and others being very green. 

 

[ChrisA]

4 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@8B palms Where can I find that book? I have been accumulating palm cultivation books for the last couple of years. 

 

If you every get a chance to go to Fairchild Tropical Botanic Gardens in Coral Gables, FL they have a large selection of Palm books for sale. I believe most were published by either them or the Southeast Palm Society. I wanted to buy all of them, but was on a work trip and had only so much room in my luggage....

[PalmatierMeg]

I found this book available on the internet. I don't know how many palms it features but the cost looks fairly reasonable

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/hardy-palms-and-palm-like-plants_martyn-graham/590406/item/13370415/?mkwid=WBQEzX39|dc&pcrid=11558858354&pkw=&pmt=be&slid=&product=13370415&plc=&pgrid=3970769428&ptaid=pla-1101002863359&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bing+Shopping+|+Crafts%2c+Hobbies+&+Home&utm_term=&utm_content=WBQEzX39|dc|pcrid|11558858354|pkw||pmt|be|product|13370415|slid||pgrid|3970769428|ptaid|pla-1101002863359|&msclkid=8f253a29e50913dd0cf065e0b9780a86#idiq=13370415&edition=6219331

[IRQVET]

Satsumas are definately on my short list of next plants I want to get. My neighbor and I were just discussing that, as he wants one too. I've never had one. I know Meyers are cold hardy, as are variegated lemons as I had both in Oregon which get much colder than where I am currently (we actually got occasional snow there). The limes I have aren't key limes, their bearass, so I'm hoping their more cold hardy as its said they are cold hardy down to zone 7 with some protection. Same with my Tangelno's, they are a cultivar that is supposed to be more cold hardy. But I have two different cultivars so (Fingers crossed) because this is my first go around with Tangelno's as well. 

As for Just Fruits & Exocotics in Crawfordville, I have to say I'm not a huge fan. I thought I was going to be, but their prices are very high and their plant condition (at least when I went) wasn't the best. Granted it was August when I went there; so alot of plants were showing signs of stress. I'm not totoally writing them off, we'll just have to wait and see. Their prices were crazy high though. However, I am finding it funny what some things cost out here. I could get a 7 foot Japanese Maple back home for around $75-90. Same tree out here goes for $300+. So some things out here are giving me sticker shock. I hate to say this, but I'm finding bigger and healthier plants (and for less money) at my local Home Depot of all places. Where back home, I would have never gone there for plants as I always shopped at local plant nurseries. 

As far as palms go, you folks gave me alot to consider. All the palms I'm drawn to seem not to do well in my area. So I need to research some of those mentioned here before I pull the trigger. Thanks everyone for your insight, I appreciate it. I've always been a fruit tree guy (citrus, cherry, pear, peach, and elderberry) so palms are definately outside of my wheel house. 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by IRQVET

[Reyes Vargas]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:02 AM, Estlander said:

Sorry to see the damage to your Majesties. I don’t know where in the panhandle you are, but I don’t think it went low enough anywhere here to cause damage to Majesties just yet. Maybe the weight of the blankets snapped the fronds? 
Also, you’ve planted yours way out in the open exposed to winds, frost, etc.  To give them the best chance here, it’s better to plant them closer to the house or under some kind of canopy. 
Of course, even then they’d need some kind of protection every now and then.

I’m also on the panhandle, but in a more protected spot - 2 miles from the Gulf and half a mile from a large Bay to the north. 

Have two Majesties planted as well. They’ve been in the ground since October 2017. The defoliated in the January 2018 freeze after a night of 23F low, but have been fine ever since. 
Here’s my larger one this morning. It’s getting big and is now starting to peek over the roofline.

 

Thats a nice majesty palm Andre.  How big was it when you first planted it?  I just planted one myself that I got from Lowe's.  It got some slight leaf burn but should recover.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

6 hours ago, Estlander said:

As has been mentioned several times, I’d also suggest replacing your Majesties with Mule palms. Pindos and Sabals are just too common. With Mules your yard wouldn’t look like every other one on the street. 
 

And since there’s some variability to their look, they can, in a way, look like two different palms even. 
Some take it after Pindo palms with more upright orderly fronds and erect leaflets looking kind of like a green Pindo. While others are more Queen looking with droopy leaflets. 
Here are my two larger ones to give you an idea. 

Mules seem to be reasonably well used in the Tampa Bay area.  I know of several plants of them.  I've never seen a large one with clear trunk yet tho.   I definitely prefer the more droopy "queen" looking ones myself.  

[Estlander]

4 hours ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Thats a nice majesty palm Andre.  How big was it when you first planted it?  I just planted one myself that I got from Lowe's.  It got some slight leaf burn but should recover.

They were pretty much the same size as OP’s. Here it is back in August 2018 after having been defoliated 7 months prior in January 2018. 
Majesties should grow well for you down there in southern TX zone 9b.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Estlander

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, Estlander said:

Majesties should grow well for you down there in southern TX zone 9b.

His area has some of the nicest majesties in the 48 states imo, something about the alluvial soils down there. It's also firmly royal palm territory with an ambitious coconut or two, so cold shouldn't be an issue.