Mule Palm Struggling - Help!

[Ras]

Hello Palm Community. I am new to this group, and looking for some help...

I recently got this pretty big double mule palm, which I am planning to keep potted for about a year. The leaves on one of the trees are starting to turn yellow to brown, and also becoming a little "crispy". This is happening to only the outermost fronds on the right tree. Can any experts on here please advise on what looks like could be happening by the pics below? Terrified that the tree might be going south...

 

Pic 1 - General Picture

 

Pics 2 & 3 - Starting to notice the change on outermost fronds of the smaller palm

 

Some additional factors to consider...

1) Due to strong Santa Anna winds in Southern California a day after going in the pot, the right tree started to lean and I tied it up (pics below). Could I have been restricting nutrition to the fronds? The ones wilting had contact to the cloth and rope used...

2) The tree was in a pretty large plant nursery with many trees around it which gave partial shade. Here, it is by itself in full sun.

3) A small amount of fertilizer was added to the soil before planting.

 

THANKS a ton for any guidance from this group!!

 

Pics 4 & 5 - Rope tie

 

 

[Ben in Norcal]

Looks fine to me.  Just normal leaf die off.

Why wouldn't you plant it out now in your location, given these palms are totally bulletproof in much of CA?  It'd be a lot happier.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

2 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Looks fine to me.  Just normal leaf die off.

Why wouldn't you plant it out now in your location, given these palms are totally bulletproof in much of CA?  It'd be a lot happier.

Definitely agree with getting that bad boy in the ground. The sooner it gets out of that pot the sooner it can stretch out and start to put on some size. 

[JLM]

Once that thing gets in the ground it will likely take off. Nice Mule you have there!

[Steve Mac]

Hi Ras, I think that you have covered most things. 

The wind and sun probably did contribute to the plants condition, but the rope and tie was a good idea and will do not damage it at all in the short to medium term. Going South?... that leaf is on a long vacation and she ain't commin back. 

There is not much that you need to do for a mule, just water and carrots. 

[Ras]

Thanks all for the responses - I think I'm going to like this place :).

I have held off from putting the palm in the ground as I could possibly be moving in 10 months. Bought the biggest pot I could find to put this bad boy in until I know for sure, as I would move with it and don't want to have to dig it up. 

Any counsel on how much water to give it while in the pot? This is it before going in...

[Allen]

I'd water till it runs out the bottom every two or 3 days if the weather is nice till it gets going better.  Were the roots healthy?

[Ras]

15 minutes ago, Allen said:

I'd water till it runs out the bottom every two or 3 days if the weather is nice till it gets going better.  Were the roots healthy?

Hi Allen - we are in between 65-75 degrees as highs, and ~45 degrees for lows. Roots were pretty healthy, however, it had started to root out of the wooden pot they had it in the nursery. The owner said they would need to "break" the roots (which as I understand means cut the part that has tooted into the ground), but that is common practice and should not hurt the palm?

[Allen]

I had a mule palm here that was incredibly root bound and I was shocked how fast it went thru water.  When I replant that one I pull roots out to get them unwound a bit.  I don't think mules are too root sensitive.  Was the palm nursery grown in the pot or recently dug and put in the wooden pot when you bought it?  Mule palms are very tough.  The double palm though might be putting more stress on it than usual because they are both competing against each other AND in a pot.  That double looks hard to contain in a pot the way it's shaped.  Mine outgrew a pot fast here and I had to plant mine.  At those temps during dry weather I'd water twice per week if your potting soil is not mushy.    

 

Mine before I planted it earlier this year.  Pot is 2.5'x2.5' or so.  It was super root bound in this pot.  

Edited December 16, 2020 by Allen

[Ras]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

I had a mule palm here that was incredibly root bound and I was shocked how fast it went thru water.  When I replant that one I pull roots out to get them unwound a bit.  I don't think mules are too root sensitive.  Was the palm nursery grown in the pot or recently dug and put in the wooden pot when you bought it?  Mule palms are very tough.  The double palm though might be putting more stress on it than usual because they are both competing against each other AND in a pot.  That double looks hard to contain in a pot the way it's shaped.  Mine outgrew a pot fast here and I had to plant mine.  At those temps during dry weather I'd water twice per week if your potting soil is not mushy.    

 

Mine before I planted it earlier this year.  Pot is 2.5'x2.5' or so.  It was super root bound in this pot.  

Had been in the wooden pot it was in for a while, but had been moved to bigger wooden pots as it progressed inn size (they have had at that nursery for a while). I'll go for 2X/week watering for now. Thanks!

[Ben in Norcal]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

I had a mule palm here that was incredibly root bound and I was shocked how fast it went thru water.  When I replant that one I pull roots out to get them unwound a bit.  I don't think mules are too root sensitive.  Was the palm nursery grown in the pot or recently dug and put in the wooden pot when you bought it?  Mule palms are very tough.  The double palm though might be putting more stress on it than usual because they are both competing against each other AND in a pot.  That double looks hard to contain in a pot the way it's shaped.  Mine outgrew a pot fast here and I had to plant mine.  At those temps during dry weather I'd water twice per week if your potting soil is not mushy.    

 

Mine before I planted it earlier this year.  Pot is 2.5'x2.5' or so.  It was super root bound in this pot.  

That's a mule?  Exceptionally heavy Butia influence in that one.

[Allen]

55 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

That's a mule?  Exceptionally heavy Butia influence in that one.

Here's two years growth....

2018 Spring 4' or so

2020 Spring Planted, today 10'

Edited December 17, 2020 by Allen

[Fusca]

25 minutes ago, Allen said:

2020 Spring Planted, today 10'

Let the winter protection plans begin!    I'm already looking forward to some update photos next month!

[Ras]

Palm Friends...

First, Happy New Year to all.

Second... HELP, below are updated pics from my initial post 3 weeks ago.

High level - 1) continued browning and yellowing of outermost fronds (pics 1-3 below). 2)  No new fronds, and not much growth from the 2 new fronds that were already there when the palm was delivered.  3) the pot size is 32 inches high and 36 in diameter. 4) I water with 2 gallons 2X per week.

Is she dying? Does she HAVE to go in the ground? I would rather give it away then kill it!

Thanks for the responses.

[Ras]

4 minutes ago, Ras said:

Palm Friends...

First, Happy New Year to all.

Second... HELP, below are updated pics from my initial post 3 weeks ago.

High level - 1) continued browning and yellowing of outermost fronds (pics 1-3 below). 2)  No new fronds, and not much growth from the 2 new fronds that were already there when the palm was delivered.  3) the pot size is 32 inches high and 36 in diameter. 4) I water with 2 gallons 2X per week.

Is she dying? Does she HAVE to go in the ground? I would rather give it away then kill it!

Thanks for the responses.

Geez, must be getting late. Pics now below...

Pics now attached

 

[Allen]

Looks like it might be some stress from moving from the nursery to your location.  In summer these need to be sun acclimated if they are grown in a greenhouse but I am not sure if that is your problem since it is winter.  I am not really sure.  those fronds won't come back but these grow fast if it gets over this.  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

The newest fronds look good to me. I wouldn't worry at all about the oldest fronds browning. Especially being pot bound. 

[sipalms]

Looks like a mixture of transplant shock along with the upper part of the outer fronds being bound up for a while. Should be fine, the inner fronds look good.

The only thing is that neither Queens nor Butia, (these palms' parents) are exactly suited to being 'doubles'. There's plenty of palms that are, but these aren't generally considered good candidates. So they perhaps are fighting for nutrients and room. The sooner you get that in ground the better.

[chad2468emr]

Echoing what everyone else said but also, I’d pay those dead fronds a visit with some sheers. If I ever have a palm (or any plant for that matter) that’s going through something, I clip dying foliage off as soon as it’s fully dead so I can keep a clearer eye on whether or not any additional damage occurs. Those fronds are good and dead so you can remove them, at least for aesthetic purposes since it’ll look much better with them gone. 

[Ras]

6 hours ago, chad2468emr said:

Echoing what everyone else said but also, I’d pay those dead fronds a visit with some sheers. If I ever have a palm (or any plant for that matter) that’s going through something, I clip dying foliage off as soon as it’s fully dead so I can keep a clearer eye on whether or not any additional damage occurs. Those fronds are good and dead so you can remove them, at least for aesthetic purposes since it’ll look much better with them gone. 

Thanks all for the counsel!

Being that it is a double and they could be fighting for nutrients, should I up the fertilizing/watering? 

[chad2468emr]

3 hours ago, Ras said:

Thanks all for the counsel!

Being that it is a double and they could be fighting for nutrients, should I up the fertilizing/watering? 

If you’re in the northern hemisphere and experiencing a cooler period of the year right now, I wouldn’t up fertilizing or water. The tree slows down and doesn’t really use nutrients as much and it likely wouldn’t make a difference. There is only so much fertilizer you can put into the soil to where it’s an appropriate concentration and not too high to hurt the palm, and doubling fertilizer just because there’s two palms in the pot would likely bring you past that level, depending on what you were using. At a certain point, there’s just two palms competing over a single pot’s worth of soil, space, and nutrients, and they’re not going to do as well as they would if they were singles. 

Besides, I don’t thinking being two-to-a-pot is what’s causing this, it’s likely just transplant shock and possibly exacerbated by being paired. Just let the pair settle, water as usual, and you’ll see it bounce back. These guys really do grow fast so you’ll probably have more green fronds mid-summer than you did even when you bought them. 

[Allen]

3 hours ago, Ras said:

Thanks all for the counsel!

Being that it is a double and they could be fighting for nutrients, should I up the fertilizing/watering? 

I'd make sure it stays watered now and fertilize with a slow release like osmocote when the weather picks up in spring

[Ras]

Hi all - I bit the bullet and put her in the round this past weekend. She was just not looking happy.

I am very concerned about the smaller of the 2. The new spear is small, open, wilty, and yellowy (see pics below). The bigger one has similar symptoms, but looks like it is stronger and I can see a new small spear starting to form. No new spear on the smaller one forming. I tugged on the smaller ones wilting spear, and it is firm. Also, guy from nursery I bought it from was by (delivering another palm), and said that it should bounce back over time. 

What do you guys think? Is the small one a gonner? What can I do to help her.

[RyManUtah]

They look shade grown to me. The newest fronds opening inside the “trunk” point to this.
A year ~ish to adjust to their new home will do them wonders.. 

[Ras]

Thanks @RyManUtah. I really hope so.

[RyManUtah]

I hope so too. I had one look similar on my sunny patio, so I planted it as well. Seemed to do a lot better, because it was hard to overwater. 

[Ras]

3 minutes ago, RyManUtah said:

I hope so too. I had one look similar on my sunny patio, so I planted it as well. Seemed to do a lot better, because it was hard to overwater. 

@RyManUtah

How big was it, and how much water did you give it?

[RyManUtah]

44 minutes ago, Ras said:

How big was it, and how much water did you give it?

Pretty small. 3-5G size. It gets about 10g of water 3x a week in warm weather. During recovery, especially stretches of days over 100, I watered everyday. I image it could handle a lot more water, though. 

[JLM]

My Queens open their spears early all of the time, doesnt affect their growth at all. As for everything else, it should bounce back just fine! Interested to see this mule in about two months from now.
Also during Hurricane Sally their spears got shreaded open by the wind, and it didnt faze them.

Edited February 10, 2021 by JLM

[Ras]

Thanks @JLM

Will update in a few months.

[RyManUtah]

^Please do. There are never too many pictures of Mules, and doubles are more rare. This will be exciting to watch. 

[Ras]

Update to my Mule, which continues to struggle - any guidance is much appreciated.

So, moved her into the ground in Feb. I marked the spears, and eventually started seeing some movement around July.  This continued albeit slowly, with the bigger of the 2 showing the most growth. The smaller one is still really struggling, and while inspecting the still droopy frond, I noticed a new spear that was almost fully drying out already. This spear easily pulled out (see pics below). Really sad as I thought she was bouncing back, but the dreaded spear pull has me VERY worried.

What do you guys think is going on here? What should I do now to try save her? THANKS!

Pic 1 - full shot of palm

Pics 2, 3 - pulled spear

Pic 4 - close up of new spear on large palm

Pic 5 - close up of crown shaft on smaller palm

[freakypalmguy]

Poor hydrogen peroxide in that cavity until it stops bubbling. If no growth shows after a bit, It might require surgery to help it along. It involves cutting off all the fronds and gradually cutting the growth point down in small increments (1/2” or so)until you get past the rot and down to solid fresh white palm flesh. Then they will usually resume a slow recovery. I’ve saved a few this way. With some, you never get to fresh palm material, you keep cutting and find nothing but brown rotted cavity, in that case, there’s no hope.

good luck, I hope it pulls through.

[freakypalmguy]

After the hydrogen peroxide treatment, you can put a small stick in the cavity that is taller than the hole and mark it so you can tell if it is pushing any new growth.

Here’s a link to a thread showing a palm after surgery. It down a couple posts in the thread.

 

[Allen]

I think yours had some root issues in the pot and that has led to the spear pull.  I say that because of the way the fronds looked in one of the pics.  I can't speak to how healthy a double mule could be.  But if it were me I'd consider chopping the small one but I always get blowback on that kind of advice.  This would let the large one grow unimpeded.  

On 12/16/2020 at 8:27 PM, Fusca said:

Let the winter protection plans begin!    I'm already looking forward to some update photos next month!

My mule did fine over the winter it has grown a ton this year and is super healthy. It has grown 4 new fronds this year.

[RJ]

@Allen I can’t believe they use vented crawl spaces in zone 7a. Sorry for the Off topic there just boggles my mind. 
 

I just planted a mule at my folks house about 5’ off the foundation this spring. Looks maybe a little further then yours but not much. Great job !

Edited September 18, 2021 by RJ

[Ras]

Thanks, @freakypalmguy, @Allen

I have poured peroxide down the shaft. Should I keep doing this daily until there is no fizzing? Also, should I also do this for the larger of the 2 as well as a pre-caution?

Cheers!

[freakypalmguy]

21 hours ago, Ras said:

Thanks, @freakypalmguy, @Allen

I have poured peroxide down the shaft. Should I keep doing this daily until there is no fizzing? Also, should I also do this for the larger of the 2 as well as a pre-caution?

Cheers!

I would do it a few days just to make sure, as far as the big one take a sharpie and mark the newly emerging spear as low on the growing point as you can so that you can see if it’s pushing out, if it’s growing and pushing I wouldn’t worry about that one.

Also how well does the water drain out of the bottom of the pot when you water it?

[Ras]

Thanks again. I tried a 3rd treatment of the hydrogen peroxide yesterday, and noticed that the fizzing had stopped. Hopefully this is a good sign. I will find a stick for the cavity today.

I also marked the spears on the larger palm, and noticed some movement in the past 24 hrs - whew! 

@freakypalmguy - the palm has been in the ground since Feb.

[Ras]

Just an update to the thread. My Mule is bouncing back nicely after a dicey start. Thanks to all the help I got in this thread!

The smaller one is finally starting to push out new, healthy fronds.  Another year in the ground and she should be quite the looker.