Northern Morocco Coconuts?

[PalmTreeDude]

Hello everyone, I was looking at an app called iNaturalist, which is an app that lets you post and look at observations of plants and animals around the world, and I typed in Cocos nucifera and found this post in northern Morocco by the Mediterranean Sea. Does anyone know any information about this? I thought that it would be too cool in the winter for them there. 

[RedRabbit]

It’s definitely conceivable. We know they’re excruciatingly close to being able to survive in southern Spain so it’s possible they’re able to live in Morocco. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by RedRabbit

[GottmitAlex]

1 hour ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Hello everyone, I was looking at an app called iNaturalist, which is an app that lets you post and look at observations of plants and animals around the world, and I typed in Cocos nucifera and found this post in northern Morocco by the Mediterranean Sea. Does anyone know any information about this? I thought that it would be too cool in the winter for them there. 

They seem to be in pure sand.

 

[bubba]

If legitimate, these coconuts are the new leader in the clubhouse at 35.168 Latitude North!

[mnorell]

I just looked up the current sea surface temp for the Mediterranean Sea in that location, it is 61F on 10 January. If northern cold has to travel across a significant stretch of 61-degree water before hitting the land, I assume the air-temp would be moderated pretty significantly, so it seems logical the Cocos could be grown there, more or less, irrespective of fruiting behavior, etc. Note that the pictured trees are all juveniles. But quite an enviable position to have a huge stretch of mild water to the northwest, north and northeast. That's something very few places in the USA can enjoy.

[pietropuccio]

The (unique) report is not reliable, the climate of Berkane (34 ° 55 'N) is not suitable for coconut:

 

 

[Xenon]

10 hours ago, mnorell said:

I just looked up the current sea surface temp for the Mediterranean Sea in that location, it is 61F on 10 January. If northern cold has to travel across a significant stretch of 61-degree water before hitting the land, I assume the air-temp would be moderated pretty significantly, so it seems logical the Cocos could be grown there, more or less, irrespective of fruiting behavior, etc. Note that the pictured trees are all juveniles. But quite an enviable position to have a huge stretch of mild water to the northwest, north and northeast. That's something very few places in the USA can enjoy.

Imo, the issue is more winter precipitation and lack of heat in the winter (limited by winter sun angle at 35*N). The areas on the southern coast of Spain around Costa del Sol and Costa Tropical are all solid zone 10 with commercial mango and cherimoya production.  Lots of less heat demanding zone 10 palms grow there, pretty much mirrors Southern California. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Xenon

[mnorell]

From looking at the weather data from Nador (a fairly large city on the coast to the west of the area in discussion), it does seem to have a modestly chilly winter and probably more negatively, the depressed springtime temperatures typical of coconut-graveyard areas found in cool-ocean maritime climes. It gets on average about 1.5" of rain per month in the winter. Though after seeing the successful experiments by Alex and Cristobal in the warmer sections of the San Diego/Tijuana border region, and the recent photos of a nice-looking plant in Corona (about 34 N), I for one am convinced it is possible in such areas, even with cool/chilly (but relatively brief) winters with careful siting and very importantly with intelligent substrate design (as Alex noted: sand) and irrigation control.

But one does have to wonder if the pictured palms would grow successfully to maturity and actually produce fruit. Even in the Coachella Valley (Sonoran Desert), where the spring is quite warm, what evidence we have of the larger, trunking coconuts show either stunted or shy fruiting. The wording of the Moroccan post indicates that coconuts are grown there for their fruit currently, which obviously would imply known fruiting behavior...but perhaps just wishful thinking. I think if I were trying to get a commercial grove growing in that area, I would skip the Cocos and move more toward the mango, fig and date industries. I would assume they probably import their coconuts from the Canary Islands, which couldn't be too expensive, so I don't know quite what the upside of such a venture would be.

[tropicbreeze]

Another photo from the same area supposed to be about half a kilometre from the site mentioned above. The given location is about 15 kms from the coast ("as the crow flies") in a river valley. There's also a photo of a Breadfruit Tree nearby. The photos were taken mid July 2020. The accuracy of the location is given as 16 metres, coords Lat: 34.942941 Lon: -2.549515.

The red marker (in the river) is the tall Coconut, about half a kilometre to the right is the marker for the small Coconuts.

"This village is the only village in morocco that grows coconut trees as a agriculture use, there were other native plants such as loquat trees and pomegranate trees.
Temperature: 34°c humidity: 43%"

"In this isolated village many people grow exotic trees, I have never seen this species of tree in my life until today and it looks extraterrestrial possibly from another planet.
Temperature: 34°c humidity: 42%"

[bubba]

If the pictures provided by Tropicbreeze are legitimate, the tall solitary coconut palm is more than simply surviving (flourishing?). The materials I could find on the Oued Moulouya River Valley in Morocco discuss the existing microclimates in this valley tracing the river.

The photos of the Breadfruit Trees either confirm the legitimacy of the coconuts or support the possibility that we have stumbled on an elaborate hoax. Very interesting but if we can obtain confirmation (still waiting for photos of coconuts at Port Elizabeth, SA), these coconuts would indeed be the leader in the clubhouse! ( no intention to diss Tropicbreeze, Palm Tree Dude or anyone else on this thread!)

[mnorell]

I vote for a ridiculous hoax...breadfruit growing in Morocco (not). They hate anything 50 or below, and get cut back to the ground in the upper 30s. We had beautiful Artocarpus trees on Big Pine Key (a spectacular 40' tree across the street from our house was felled by Hurricane Irma), but that is the northern limit in the USA of long-term, full-sized trees (further up the chain on Plantation Key they were cut to the ground by the 2010 winter, but did resprout as many-stemmed monsters. Meanwhile the above photo, supposedly from a horse-latitude desert, shows a beautiful specimen with long green internodes and a very lush appearance in an obviously humid, tropical locale. Sorry, not a Moroccan "river valley"....no way José!

[tropicbreeze]

You'll notice in my post I didn't offer an opinion on the observations, only the information that was uploaded on the iNaturalist site for those that want to see the "whole picture". iNaturalist is a citizen science project where people can upload observations of wildlife. The site takes metadata from the image files and would get coordinates if the camera was GPS enabled. I couldn't get into the metadata in those photos so can't tell how those coordinates were established.

Verification on iNaturalist only goes to taxon identification from the photos. Location can't be verified. The given coordinates place this location not on the coast but 15 kms from it. The same person made all these observations (plus a number of others) from the same general part of Morocco. They haven't posted observations from any other area.

[bubba]

Very interesting! Unless we receive some manner of double confirmation on this information, it is beginning to look like material we have seen before that is suspect (very very Southern Southern part of Italy...)

[dekaoxtoyra]

Maybe these trees are more strong hardy

Than we thought

Nature can spread by change 

[PalmatierMeg]

I'm with @mnorell. Hoax or wacky wishful dreaming. I look at the satellite photos and see barren Moroccan(?) sand and scraggly scrub. I look at the closeups and see behind the coconut palms and breadfruit trees dense, tall green trees. And a self proclaimed "citizen naturalist site" for just anyone to present his own "scientific studies" with no backup but blurry shots from his Smart phone needs to be taken with a whole shaker of salt. If I were to hazard a guess I would say the internet coconut hucksters are behind this.

And if by some miracle a coconut palm could survive in a microclimate of this harsh place, it would not produce any fruit, likely would not flower at all. If it did the chilly winters would abort all the seeds - coconuts take two years to bear ripe fruit. In HI coconut palms grown above 1,000' feet altitude do not bear fruit - not enough long range heat.

Coconuts are strong, tough palms given what they want/need. But their massive Achille's heel is cold or chilly weather.

[RedRabbit]

Do we have a link to where this is posted on iNaturalist?

I haven't been able to disprove this one yet. The images aren't turning up elsewhere on the web so they could be legit. Unfortunately there's no StreetView or any images of the area that I've been able to find so I can't find proof either way.

Edited January 12, 2021 by RedRabbit

[tropicbreeze]

2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Do we have a link to where this is posted on iNaturalist?

I haven't been able to disprove this one yet. The images aren't turning up elsewhere on the web so they could be legit. Unfortunately there's no StreetView or any images of the area that I've been able to find so I can't find proof either way.

The photos are 'legit' (they are Coconuts) it's just the location that's questionable. The site is set up so people can corroborate or dispute IDs. Comments can be made about the observation. If you like you could reference climate data that shows Coconuts couldn't survive in that location, especially not to fruiting stage. That would go into the comments thus flagging the observation as dubious. It's not pointed out if no one points it out. That's how the site works.

These are the links to the three observations

Young Coconuts
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/53144663

Tall fruiting Coconut
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/52925288

Breadfruit
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/52925160

iNaturalist is a highly regarded site run jointly by the California Academy of Sciences and the National Geographic Society. These are some of the organisations that are working globally with them.

Mexico: Comisión nacional para el conocimiento y uso de la biodiversidad
New Zealand: New Zealand Biodiversity Recording Network, Mātaki Taiao (formerly NatureWatch NZ)
Canada: Canadian Wildlife Federation (CWF), Parks Canada, NatureServe Canada, Royal Ontario Museum
Columbia: Instituto Humboldt
Portugal: Biodiversity4All
Panamá: MiAmbiente
Ecuador: Instituto Nacional de Biodiversidad (INABIO)
Australia: Atlas of Living Australia
Argentina: Fundación Vida Silvestre Argentina
Israel: University of Haifa
Finland: Finnish Biodiversity Information Facility
 

[Tyrone]

I will chime in and say it’s a hoax. The satellite image doesn’t correlate with the photos linked as others have said. Those winter temps are close to mine at 35S. Admittedly we get way wetter down here than northern Morocco but no coconut would survive as long as 2 weeks in winter in my climate. I think northern Morocco is the new way down south Italy if you get my drift. 

[RedRabbit]

18 hours ago, tropicbreeze said:

The photos are 'legit' (they are Coconuts) it's just the location that's questionable. The site is set up so people can corroborate or dispute IDs. Comments can be made about the observation. If you like you could reference climate data that shows Coconuts couldn't survive in that location, especially not to fruiting stage. That would go into the comments thus flagging the observation as dubious. It's not pointed out if no one points it out. That's how the site works.

These are the links to the three observations

Young Coconuts
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/53144663

Tall fruiting Coconut
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/52925288

Breadfruit
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/52925160

iNaturalist is a highly regarded site run jointly by the California Academy of Sciences and the National Geographic Society. These are some of the organisations that are working globally with them.

Mexico: Comisión nacional para el conocimiento y uso de la biodiversidad
New Zealand: New Zealand Biodiversity Recording Network, Mātaki Taiao (formerly NatureWatch NZ)
Canada: Canadian Wildlife Federation (CWF), Parks Canada, NatureServe Canada, Royal Ontario Museum
Columbia: Instituto Humboldt
Portugal: Biodiversity4All
Panamá: MiAmbiente
Ecuador: Instituto Nacional de Biodiversidad (INABIO)
Australia: Atlas of Living Australia
Argentina: Fundación Vida Silvestre Argentina
Israel: University of Haifa
Finland: Finnish Biodiversity Information Facility
 

Thanks. I still haven't found anything conclusive on this. This seems to be the only documentation of coconuts in Morocco. It could be a hoax, but why would this guy bother with adding 51 other observations to their database? Further, it looks like he uploaded the images rather than finding them online. 

Not saying I believe this guy, but I'm not assuming he's wrong either. 

[mnorell]

No EXIF data on the pictures, at least on the one I downloaded as a test. So the lat/long info is not there for any verification. I know iNaturalist is a perfectly good site (and I've been a member for some time), but it is only as good as the uploader, and no matter that this person has uploaded other items in the past, it's simply got to be a hoax. There are lots of mistaken IDs on that site. And the Artocarpus and the background vegetation (as well as the height of the hills behind the Artocarpus) just do not match the general climate, nor the Google maps/Earth 3D view of the area and its elevation profile, nor the type of vegetation surrounding the river. Who knows why people upload such material. I also looked up the forecast for the next ten days for the town just to the east...4C (39F) for the nocturnal low, and about 15/16C (60F) for the high. Pretty consistent. No dice, Artocarpus. Tough grow, Cocos. There's also someone who tagged Artocarpus way up in northern Portugal. The image is of (I kid you not) a single, brown, shriveled, dead leaf on a patio plant, perhaps Artocarpus, perhaps Philodendron bipinnatifidum. Ugh. South, South, Italy!

[Silas_Sancona]

9 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

 It could be a hoax, but why would this guy bother with adding 51 other observations to their database? Further, it looks like he uploaded the images rather than finding them online. 

Not saying I believe this guy, but I'm not assuming he's wrong either. 

On inaturalist, you can upload as many observations of whatever plant ..or other organism you encounter in a given location.. For instance, i'll be uploading all the plants/ insects i have documented/encountered from a specific area in a neighboring county, ( among other places i visit )  that isn't already well documented in the database once i join.   If you read the fine print, any pictures added have to be those you took.. They don't allow uploading images from the net... but imagine some people try to.   

Off topic for a sec.. found some observations of potential fruiting Coconuts near Mexico City /  Colima while doing more searching last night.. Cross checking w/ Google earth, most of the observations are in areas above 1000ft.  Unfortunately, no street level views ( on google earth/maps.. whatever.. ) for most of those points.

Hoping Google drives the streets again around Jocotepec, in Jalisco State, N.W. of Lake Chapala.. Found a bunch more large and healthy coconuts in other spots of that area i hadn't explored. 
Can easily see many on the last satellite image ( from 2019 it looks like ) but street view data is outdated.. from 2012-13. Several are well hidden in yards/ hard to observe fully from the street as well.  One i'd found had developing fruit on it in 2013, is still where i located it atm. No doubt it has probably grown quite a bit by now.  Elevation in the area is just above 5K ft.  Strangely, no observations made of those Coconuts on Inat. Not yet anyway..

[mnorell]

Pretty amazing to see fruit at 5000 ft in northern Jalisco. I think the usual fruiting cutoff is given as 2500 or so in tropical locales. There are very nice healthy coconuts much farther north than Jalisco, at sea level...in Guaymas/San Carlos and surprisingly enough, at I think slightly higher elevation (and latitude!) in Hermosillo. Google street view is a godsend. It is very interesting to head eastward from Mexico City down the steep altitudinal drops and watch the vegetation change as you make your way to the Caribbean coast. Also I find it interesting to “stop” at the nurseries in the various cities and see what they have for sale visible from the street, or shown on their Facebook pages once you find the businesses. It’s pretty revealing not only in terms of climate but also regional taste. 

[tropicbreeze]

17 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Thanks. I still haven't found anything conclusive on this. This seems to be the only documentation of coconuts in Morocco. It could be a hoax, but why would this guy bother with adding 51 other observations to their database? Further, it looks like he uploaded the images rather than finding them online. 

Not saying I believe this guy, but I'm not assuming he's wrong either. 

A difficult question to answer. Who's to know the motives of people doing anything. There's many cases of people publishing false data in scientific journals despite the consequences of being found out. In this case the anonymity of the internet means no consequences.

17 hours ago, mnorell said:

No EXIF data on the pictures, at least on the one I downloaded as a test. So the lat/long info is not there for any verification.

.............

I can access EXIF data on the site for my uploaded photos but not for photos uploaded by others. On another point, the image of the tall Coconut to me looks like a scan of a photo.

17 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

On inaturalist, you can upload as many observations of whatever plant ..or other organism you encounter in a given location.. For instance, i'll be uploading all the plants/ insects i have documented/encountered from a specific area in a neighboring county, ( among other places i visit )  that isn't already well documented in the database once i join.   If you read the fine print, any pictures added have to be those you took.. They don't allow uploading images from the net... but imagine some people try to.   
.............

With your interest in nature and photography you'll get a lot of value out of the iNaturalist site.

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

The small coconuts in the sand look like a random tropical beach with young planted coconuts. 
But the big coconut and the breadfruit pics say it all! That looks like an Aw climate (tropical savanna, or dry season tropical) whilst that place marked on the map is clearly a barren arid area.

As many others have said, this is nothing but a low troll attempt. This is the Moroccan version of the "deep italian south" but in this case it's the deep Moroccan north! 
Morocco can grow coconuts through, in the southermost part of their SW coastline in cities south of Agadir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agadir#Climate 

But this is at 30ºN so there is no surprise here. They won't grow above Agadir, they will under, but that's at latitudes under 30ºN and they definetly can't grow in Berkane!

[Tyrone]

21 minutes ago, Alicante said:

The small coconuts in the sand look like a random tropical beach with young planted coconuts. 
But the big coconut and the breadfruit pics say it all! That looks like an Aw climate (tropical savanna, or dry season tropical) whilst that place marked on the map is clearly a barren arid area.

As many others have said, this is nothing but a low troll attempt. This is the Moroccan version of the "deep italian south" but in this case it's the deep Moroccan north! 
Morocco can grow coconuts through, in the southermost part of their SW coastline in cities south of Agadir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agadir#Climate 

But this is at 30ºN so there is no surprise here. They won't grow above Agadir, they will under, but that's at latitudes under 30ºN and they definetly can't grow in Berkane!

That’s what I would have expected. Agadir looks to be quite a pleasant place. Warm all year just not much rainfall. The winters appear warmer than Western Australia at 30 degrees from the equator, however the summers are cooler than Western Australia at that latitude. Not a bad combination. With irrigation you could grow a lot of palms in Agidir. 

[GottmitAlex]

39 minutes ago, Alicante said:

The small coconuts in the sand look like a random tropical beach with young planted coconuts. 
But the big coconut and the breadfruit pics say it all! That looks like an Aw climate (tropical savanna, or dry season tropical) whilst that place marked on the map is clearly a barren arid area.

As many others have said, this is nothing but a low troll attempt. This is the Moroccan version of the "deep italian south" but in this case it's the deep Moroccan north! 
Morocco can grow coconuts through, in the southermost part of their SW coastline in cities south of Agadir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agadir#Climate 

But this is at 30ºN so there is no surprise here. They won't grow above Agadir, they will under, but that's at latitudes under 30ºN and they definetly can't grow in Berkane!

You mean the deep, deep south/north.

The distinctions must be made.

 

 

[PalmTreeDude]

I agree I don’t think these are actually there, it was interesting to find on the map though! 

[Inphosphere]

People are finally starting to wake up to the realities of the paradises that they stand on, whether it's the Italian South or in Morocco. They are seeing the true evidence themselves, such as the reviews @PalmTreeDude/the OP posted, rather than blindly swallow data hook, line, and sinker from the amateur climatologists.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Inphosphere

[Teegurr]

Just now, Inphosphere said:

People are finally starting to wake up to the realities of the paradises that they stand on, whether it's the Italian South or in Morocco. They are seeing the true evidence themselves, rather than blindly swallow data hook, line, and sinker from the amateur climatologists, such as the reviews @PalmTreeDude/the OP posted.

Wait, are you saying you support the Italian South posts or disagree with them? If supporting, drama here we come! 

[Inphosphere]

3 minutes ago, Teegurr said:

Wait, are you saying you support the Italian South posts or disagree with them? If supporting, drama here we come! 

Those threads started by the troll about the Italian South were just satirical, to poke fun at people who make it out to be the cold continental climate.

[GottmitAlex]

2 hours ago, Inphosphere said:

Those threads started by the troll about the Italian South were just satirical, to poke fun at people who make it out to be the cold continental climate.

You mean the deep deep south of Italy.

 

[climate change virginia]

it is possible some grow in oman and pakistan they can do well in costal areas of the middle east

[Aceraceae]

Just make sure they are planted with 10 feet of trunk in the ground in the deep deep river valley microclimate...

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[bubba]

Hoax…