Palmageddon Aftermath Photo Thread

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

Record freeze followed by cold and damp is a recipe for secondary infection and rot. 

C'mon look at those tiny sad heat deprived crowns on the Tresco robusta. They're clearly not thriving. How long would it take for them to recover from total defoliation (if they don't rot)? Is that robusta 100 years old? Robusta here gets to that size <15 years. 

Are there London queen palms too if it never gets below 20F? That's the difference between our climates; you have no heat! April here is like a major heatwave in London. 

A record winter freeze in general is a recipe for disaster, hence the devastation in Texas. 

We already know that basically everywhere in Texas has better warm-up capabilities and growth rates due to the warmer climate and more sunshine hours. No amount of warm-up will stop the Robusta's being killed in the big freezes though, otherwise we would be seeing survivors in places like College Station. I was hoping and expecting at least one of Ryan's to recover. 

The Tresco Robusta is mostly just wind battered. The Scilly islands are one of the windiest places in the UK and sunlight hours aren't as high as London either there. So yeah, its not an ideal location for it given that it is up at lat 50N, but it does appear to be long-term there. I think it was planted as a small palm in the 1970's, meaning it survived Tresco's record low of 19F in 1987.

Regarding the Queens, I know of several in London. I'll need to get updates on them following the record cold winter and spring here. Also the Robusta's in London look better and healthier than the Tresco one, but they are still a work in progress as nobody was growing them 20 years ago...

 

2 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

@UK_Palms according to Wikipedia, London has been down to 8F, and every station in the city has ranged between about 8-15F.  That is going to kill pretty much any Robusta, especially with the extended cool climate for months on end.

Climate of London - Wikipedia

Heathrow - 8F

Kew Gardens - 9F

Hampstead - 10F

Greenwich - 15F

Pretty much all of those record lows occurred when the city was much smaller. The wider Metropolitan area is about 20 million now and has a monstrous urban heat island due to how developed the area has become. That's why I went down to 13F in the rural countryside here in Feb 2018, while central London only went down to 24F. Even the suburbs stayed above 20F. The station by the Natural History Museum hasn't recorded a temperature below 20F since 1987 I believe.

I guess we'll find out in the coming decades how many of those London palms are long-term there. If a record freeze doesn't wipe the Robusta's out they will be skydusters in 10-15 years as they were planted quite small only about 7-8 years ago. Growth is about 2 foot per year. A pretty high rate given that it is at 51N. Obviously growth in Texas is faster. It's just the hardiness that I am trying to determine with these, like whether Washies will defoliate a few degrees higher over here? 

I know Dallas and Fort Worth got hit brutally hard and I did screenshot the overnight temperatures (in degrees C) on the coldest night. We were talking about your freeze on this side of the Atlantic as well. Terrible to see on the news all the turtles dying in SW Texas. Does anyone know if any Filifera's have survived the freeze in DFW? If so, that would be exceptional to see some Filifera's pushing green again there...?

I wonder whether the big Jubaea at the aquarium survived as well...?

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by UK_Palms

[sipalms]

6 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Regarding the Queens, I know of several in London.

Still waiting for some recent evidence of medium/long term Queens in London.... Where are they exactly and how large or established?

[Xenon]

6 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Regarding the Queens, I know of several in London. I'll need to get updates on them following the record cold winter and spring here. Also the Robusta's in London look better and healthier than the Tresco one, but they are still a work in progress as nobody was growing them 20 years ago...

Well I guess this thread has already digressed enough...

On 10/11/2019 at 7:28 PM, UK_Palms said:

I am reluctant to post as I do not own the pictures. But you are going on to purposely prove a point, so I will have to counter that to prove my own point. People are growing Queens here, but they are still young, just like the CIDP's and Washingtonia that weren't even being grown here 20 years ago. But now they are.

I will post my own pictures of my own Queens in due course. Seed grown of course. Not as big as this guy's though...

 

 

On 12/4/2019 at 1:41 AM, Axel Amsterdam said:

Hi Josh, they are at the bottom on page 3 in Barry's garden, north London.

I appreciate the effort and hope one day they will take off, but so far they are protected with a small greenhouse every winter and grow one leaf every season. 

I have never seen any other pictures of queens growing in London. 

 

[Collectorpalms]

32 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

A record winter freeze in general is a recipe for disaster, hence the devastation in Texas. 

We already know that basically everywhere in Texas has better warm-up capabilities and growth rates due to the warmer climate and more sunshine hours. No amount of warm-up will stop the Robusta's being killed in the big freezes though, otherwise we would be seeing survivors in places like College Station. I was hoping and expecting at least one of Ryan's to recover. 

The Tresco Robusta is mostly just wind battered. The Scilly islands are one of the windiest places in the UK and sunlight hours aren't as high as London either there. So yeah, its not an ideal location for it given that it is up at lat 50N, but it does appear to be long-term there. I think it was planted as a small palm in the 1970's, meaning it survived Tresco's record low of 19F in 1987.

Regarding the Queens, I know of several in London. I'll need to get updates on them following the record cold winter and spring here. Also the Robusta's in London look better and healthier than the Tresco one, but they are still a work in progress as nobody was growing them 20 years ago...

 

Pretty much all of those record lows occurred when the city was much smaller. The wider Metropolitan area is about 20 million now and has a monstrous urban heat island due to how developed the area has become. That's why I went down to 13F in the rural countryside here in Feb 2018, while central London only went down to 24F. Even the suburbs stayed above 20F. The station by the Natural History Museum hasn't recorded a temperature below 20F since 1987 I believe.

I guess we'll find out in the coming decades how many of those London palms are long-term there. If a record freeze doesn't wipe the Robusta's out they will be skydusters in 10-15 years as they were planted quite small only about 7-8 years ago. Growth is about 2 foot per year. A pretty high rate given that it is at 51N. Obviously growth in Texas is faster. It's just the hardiness that I am trying to determine with these, like whether Washies will defoliate a few degrees higher over here? 

I know Dallas and Fort Worth got hit brutally hard and I did screenshot the overnight temperatures (in degrees C) on the coldest night. We were talking about your freeze on this side of the Atlantic as well. Terrible to see on the news all the turtles dying in SW Texas. Does anyone know if any Filifera's have survived the freeze in DFW? If so, that would be exceptional to see some Filifera's pushing green again there...?

I wonder whether the big Jubaea at the aquarium survived as well...?

 

My Washingtonia Didn’t really stand a chance for multiple reasons! Way too much unheard of ice at low temperatures. Ice basically sucks the heat out of objects. And the wind just makes it even worse. Mine were really tall, AND I had what is basically a wind tunnel effect. They just built a 55Ft hotel next door. A northeast wind ( which I got! ) funnels around the building and it just increases the wind. You can stand in one spot and no wind and move a couple feet and get blown over. That is why I have lost some very large Palms that were basically all of my front yard. While things just slightly out of the wind tunnel survived. I had washingtonia not even flinch a hint of brown at 14.5F in 2018, and didn’t lose any Robustas ever!

Tony in DFW two Filifera have survived. He is in town where I think he said it was 3*F.  ( under the 16C on your map) I have found 4 large Filfera out in the open that survived 0 and -2 so far, so I suspect a lot have.
The Jubaea in downtown Dallas, no one has reported. The owner has some Nice size Jubaea at his house, but I do not know where it’s located. Only seen pics from TCHP post them.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[Xenon]

10 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

We already know that basically everywhere in Texas has better warm-up capabilities and growth rates due to the warmer climate and more sunshine hours. No amount of warm-up will stop the Robusta's being killed in the big freezes though, otherwise we would be seeing survivors in places like College Station. I was hoping and expecting at least one of Ryan's to recover. 

So you discredit the heat when they die but ignore it when they survive, that's not intellectually honest. Why would the heat not be a factor towards survival? Yes, robusta might survive 12F at ~30 degrees latitude that climbs back into the 70s and 80s (25-30C) the following week. I have serious doubts the same scenario would play out in England. 

[Swolte]

 Here we go again...

[Collectorpalms]

2 minutes ago, Swolte said:

 Here we go again...

Well I can’t compare my climate from front yard to back yard, so I mostly ignore climate comparison of different continents, and worry about what i have to deal with.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[NBTX11]

I hope they can grow tall Washingtonias long term in the UK.  I hope we see skydusters everywhere.  I am just skeptical it can happen long term, given the record lows (in the single digits F in London).  The reason I am mainly skeptical is two-fold.  One, the cool, gray, damp climate during the winter months for months on end.  This is not conducive to palm recovery, in the event of a record cold type event.  And, secondly, if it were possible, then someone would already have likely done it.  The fact that we do not see true skydusters on the London skyline to me is an indication that it's not viable long term.  There have been palm nuts before us, and likely someone has tried it the past 100 years.

Take San Antonio, TX for example.  Someone has tried basically every palm, and we know full well what palms will grow to complete maturity.  We know for 100 percent fact that Washingtonia Filifera can and does live to close to 100 years without dying and becomes completely mature and as big as they can get.  We also know that pure Washingtonia Robusta are likely to be killed off every 30 to 50 years.  That is why San Antonio does not look like LA with 100 foot tall Robusta.  Sure they can get to 50, 60, maybe 70 feet tall between record freezes, but they will never get as large as they do in Los Angeles California where they have been alive for 100 to 130 years without being affected by freezes.  They just won't.  That's also why we have exactly zero coconut palms dotting the San Antonio landscape.  Someone has tried it before, and failed. 

If the UK were as bullet proof for Robusta as Los Angeles, then someone would have tried it 50 years ago and there would be skydusters dotting the skyline.  That is just my uneducated opinion.  Not trying to argue about climates!!  I hope I am wrong.  Keep growing them.       

[UK_Palms]

I was primarily trying to ascertain the temperature threshold for damage, defoliation and death of Robusta’s in Texas, in light of the February freeze. It’s interesting to hear the figures and see how they compare to other freeze damage, or death events for Robusta’s. It helps to get a better idea of their hardiness as there seems to be so many variables that can affect survivability. Of course wet-cold and spring/summer warmth are going to play a big part too. I’m not discounting that. 
 

Did the Robusta’s in south Texas take damage, or are they totally fine? I’m guessing they have sailed through in places like Laredo, Corpus Christi, McAllen etc...? I don’t know what the coldest temperature was in these places, but I believe South Padre Island went down to 20F I think, right? So I’m guessing that inland it was quite a bit colder in south Texas? Is there much damage in general to the Robusta’s there? I’m curious how the Queens faired in these areas as well...? Cheers.

[petiole10]

7 hours ago, Xenon said:

So you discredit the heat when they die but ignore it when they survive, that's not intellectually honest. Why would the heat not be a factor towards survival? Yes, robusta might survive 12F at ~30 degrees latitude that climbs back into the 70s and 80s (25-30C) the following week. I have serious doubts the same scenario would play out in England. 

Apples and oranges come to mind with these attempted climate comparisons. There is little doubt though at all that Queen palms are a longer term experiment too far in southern UK without a vast amount of manipulated protection and a very large adapted conservatory/greenhouse!

The main objective of this thread though is not an exercise in UK/US palm successes/failures, but a fascinating exercise of palm endurance vs the classic extremes of a Texan climate which have been aptly demonstrated since February. Very much enjoying the pictures and updates of progress. Much can be learnt from threads like these

[boaterboat]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

I was primarily trying to ascertain the temperature threshold for damage, defoliation and death of Robusta’s in Texas, in light of the February freeze. It’s interesting to hear the figures and see how they compare to other freeze damage, or death events for Robusta’s. It helps to get a better idea of their hardiness as there seems to be so many variables that can affect survivability. Of course wet-cold and spring/summer warmth are going to play a big part too. I’m not discounting that. 
 

Did the Robusta’s in south Texas take damage, or are they totally fine? I’m guessing they have sailed through in places like Laredo, Corpus Christi, McAllen etc...? I don’t know what the coldest temperature was in these places, but I believe South Padre Island went down to 20F I think, right? So I’m guessing that inland it was quite a bit colder in south Texas? Is there much damage in general to the Robusta’s there? I’m curious how the Queens faired in these areas as well...? Cheers.

I can tell you as of a few weeks ago, the Robustus lining Ocean Drive in Corpus looked rough, but most were pushing green.
 

I also purchased quite a few palms from Harlingen & they all look good. Harlingen is quite a bit further south, though. 

[NBTX11]

I believe Brownsville dropped to around 22 or 23F. Washingtonia Robusta should be fine. They defoliated in Corpus, but are recovering from what I’ve heard. Corpus Christi dropped to around 17 or 18.  Those are my recollection of their lows, I might be slightly off. 

[Reyes Vargas]

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I was primarily trying to ascertain the temperature threshold for damage, defoliation and death of Robusta’s in Texas, in light of the February freeze. It’s interesting to hear the figures and see how they compare to other freeze damage, or death events for Robusta’s. It helps to get a better idea of their hardiness as there seems to be so many variables that can affect survivability. Of course wet-cold and spring/summer warmth are going to play a big part too. I’m not discounting that. 
 

Did the Robusta’s in south Texas take damage, or are they totally fine? I’m guessing they have sailed through in places like Laredo, Corpus Christi, McAllen etc...? I don’t know what the coldest temperature was in these places, but I believe South Padre Island went down to 20F I think, right? So I’m guessing that inland it was quite a bit colder in south Texas? Is there much damage in general to the Robusta’s there? I’m curious how the Queens faired in these areas as well...? Cheers.

Here is how my robusta looks like right now.  Not the best picture due to lighting but you can see what damage it has.

I'm in Mercedes Texas in the RGV which is about 70 or so miles to the west of SPI.  We didn't go below 22° here so I doubt that SPI got down to 20°.  A lot of the robustas in the RGV took some damage but all are fine and have since recovered.  Only the one's that were sick before the storm died.

[MesquiteRetreat]

4 hours ago, boaterboat said:

I can tell you as of a few weeks ago, the Robustus lining Ocean Drive in Corpus looked rough, but most were pushing green.
 

I also purchased quite a few palms from Harlingen & they all look good. Harlingen is quite a bit further south, though. 

Did you purchase recently from Harlingen? If so, may I ask what and where?

[Xenon]

Surprise in College Station...this is by far the most robusta mixed mutt I've seen throwing a leaf!

 

[Teegurr]

23 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Surprise in College Station...this is by far the most robusta mixed mutt I've seen throwing a leaf!

 

That's absolutely amazing, and that palm might get to LA standards if it survived this!

There are some P. dactylifera on the pool deck of Aspire, that high-rise right next to the Rise at Northgate. I wonder if those made it.

[Collectorpalms]

3 hours ago, Xenon said:

Surprise in College Station...this is by far the most robusta mixed mutt I've seen throwing a leaf!

 

Whoop!

There is a better one (old  tall and skinny) in Bryan alive. But now College Station can claim 1 too. To me this looks like the average planted Washingtonia. 
.... give them palms another 2 months of 90s and there may be some more.

One interesting note, it’s in a raised flower bed, is it possible it was drought stressed prior to the freeze????

just think Austin would be removing it. Hope College Station hasn’t sent out notices! I don’t follow local news.

i keep saying don’t give up, there will be random survivors!

Edited April 30, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

I bet you don’t find anymore north of Bryan Alive, or I’ll be totally shocked. They just don’t exist in mass quantities to begin with. Bryan College station is largest city between Houston and Dallas east of interstate 35. We have thousands of potential sole survivors.

although I saw one in Bastrop but I think it was more thank 75% Filifera

That Mutt looks like less than 50 % Filifera. But I’ll need to check it out closer for my final thoughts.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[Teegurr]

Two amazing discoveries!

One: a filibusta pushing green.

Two: a Washingtonia with only about 3ft of trunk pushing green!

Both on Shadowwood in CSTX.

 

[TonyDFW]

Several Dallas Palms that had collapsed crowns from the Feb 3F freeze, are sending out new leaves. 
Collapsed crowns aren’t always an indication that the tree is completely dead. 

[Ivanos1982]

19 minutes ago, TonyDFW said:

Several Dallas Palms that had collapsed crowns from the Feb 3F freeze, are sending out new leaves. 
Collapsed crowns aren’t always an indication that the tree is completely dead. 

I was just at that place last weekend and yeah I saw them growing back. I also went to the Arboretum botanical gardens. All filiferas there were recovering, the trachys too, only a few didnt have green. The needle palms were all green as if nothing happened.

[boaterboat]

On 4/30/2021 at 11:06 AM, MesquiteRetreat said:

Did you purchase recently from Harlingen? If so, may I ask what and where?

Yes, a couple weeks ago. I bought Chinese Fan Palms, Texas Sabal, Sabal Palmetto & Filifera from Adam’s Gardens. 

[palmsOrl]

55 minutes ago, TonyDFW said:

Several Dallas Palms that had collapsed crowns from the Feb 3F freeze, are sending out new leaves. 
Collapsed crowns aren’t always an indication that the tree is completely dead. 

It's amazing to see Sabal palmetto survive 3F.

[NBTX11]

New Braunfels TX. Every Sabal, Fat Filifera, etc are recovering. Here’s some Washingtonia hybrids and Phoenix coming back from crown collapse. These two palms are awesome old thinner trunked hybrids

[NBTX11]

[NBTX11]

[NBTX11]

[NBTX11]

[NBTX11]

Phoenix Sylvestris recovering?

[NBTX11]

Phx canaries. Big ones all coming back. 

[glasalle]

In North Central Austin:

• All 3 CIDPs that I know of in neighborhood,  about 5 miles  north of Capitol, have about 2 ft of growth. I had been really worried about the 2 across from my house, so am relieved.
• A 2-trunked dactylifera in Clarksville has green coming out of one trunk.  There are more in town I'll be investigating. I suspect the ones downtown are okay.
• All filiferas are coming back. Some more robustly than others.  There was one suspected filibusta near me that I wanted to check out, but unfortunately it was cut down after freeze.
• No robustas coming back, as expected.
• Windmills a bit ragged, but all fine.
• Chamaerops all coming back. Only a few have growth coming out of trunks, rest are from the ground offshoots.
• One butia capitata in the Arbor area  is coming back. I suspect it is a rarity.
• I have only seen one sago that appears alive. It is tall with very thick trunk.

I have seen a couple of these that seem only slightly bothered.  It appears to be a clumping palm. I hope someone can identify.

[NBTX11]

Thinner trunked hybrid in middle coming back. 

[NBTX11]

[NBTX11]

[NBTX11]

Robusta?  Can’t tell. 

[NBTX11]

Yeah buddy. I keep finding recoveries everywhere now. 

[NBTX11]

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, glasalle said:

In North Central Austin:

I have seen a couple of these that seem only slightly bothered.  It appears to be a clumping palm. I hope someone can identify.

Serenoa repens (Silver Saw Palmetto).  Welcome to Palmtalk!

Edited May 1, 2021 by Fusca

[necturus]

It seems most Phoenix that aren't roebelenii are leafing out in Houston. The dactylifera seem ahead of the sylvestris.

My Butia yatay has finally pushed out a leaf.

[CiprianS]

On 4/25/2021 at 2:19 AM, boaterboat said:

I pulled one my five 15’ trunk Livistona Chinensis that looked the worst, and it was confirmed dead, but in the meantime thought I would plant several others, as I have two strong survivors that are pushing green. I got a little carried away and added quite a few more (I personally think they are very under appreciated if you want a slender trunk tropical-looking palm that is reasonably cold hardy) rather than just replacing. 

I also added several sabals and filifera after seeing how quickly they have started pushing green after the freeze in Central Texas. 
 

Overall, 28 new palms went in, and one confirmed dead came out, with two Livistona Chinensis survival TBD. If they don’t make it, I’ll deal with it later, but I couldn’t pull them without giving them a few more months.  
 

I had been waiting for an excuse to add palm to the front of the house, so I added quite a few there as well. 
 

I’m sure the neighbors think I’m crazy considering the crane and all, but they’ve been very complimentary so far!

I don't even want to imagine how much you have paid for all of these palms.