Should I move to Houston, as a palm lover?

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

8 hours ago, Jake said:

For reference, I live in St. Charles County, Missouri. The population density in O’Fallon (city I live in has 3000 people per square mile) It’s really not that bad, but it’s starting to feel a little crowded. So I’m not saying I need to live in the middle of a field, I just don’t want to be living somewhere like Miami Lakes where the population density is 5500 people per square mile

That sounds like A LOT of people per square mile.  They must be very geographically LARGE counties.    You likely would not like Pinellas county at all.   It is geographically fairly small,  with about 1 million people in it, and it is Florida's most densely populated county coming in at 1, 521.1 people / sq mile.  

[Xerarch]

10 hours ago, Jake said:

I had heard that Corpus was ghetto as shit, but I could look into there if they have something to offer

About that, I did extensive research before I ever visited the place in person, and honestly I was a little worried about it.  I brought the whole family down for a week a while back so we could really check it all out.  Sure we went to the nice tourist areas and everything, which were fantastic, but we poked around quite a few areas of town also.  Look it all depends on what you want and your mindset, you don't have to live in any part of town that you think is ghetto, there are plenty of nice places.  And when I mentioned coastal lifestyle in Corpus, for me and my family, Corpus offers the best.  The night we got there (we stayed on Padre Island) we went to the beach, it was already getting dark.  It was in October but it was nice and warm outside, the water was beautiful, and we saw people pull their truck right onto the beach, hop out, pull out the firewood and build a fire right there on the beach and pull out all their chairs and everything to enjoy a nice beachside fire in the evening.  Now that might not be for everyone, but for me that is AWE-SOME! try that in Florida in front of a bunch of hoity toity resorts, no way. Most places in Florida you can't even drive on the beach any more.  Plus Padre Island National seashore near Corpus has miles and miles miles of empty beach, there aren't even any roads at all, you have to drive down the beach, you can have the whole place to yourself, fishing, pitch a tent, fire, whatever.  That's the kind of lifestyle that just isn't available at all in Florida or California, especially for a commoner like myself.  So here's my list of positives for Corpus Christi.

1. Unparalleled coastal lifestyle, excellent fishing, access to empty beaches you can have all to yourself, drive/camp/fire on the beach.  Longest undeveloped stretch of barrier island in the world.

2. The food man, the food! Fresh seafood, authentic Mexican food, and Texas BBQ all in the same place? Sign me up!

3. Reasonable cost of living

4. It's not a large city but if you want large city stuff, San Antonio is only two hours away, Houston is a little over 3 hours away.

5. Good climate, temperatures are comparable to parts of central Florida but without as much rain (for me more of a positive than a negative). Prior to recent freezing event there were numerous large royal and foxtail palms around town, particularly on the island or otherwise near water.  

So those are just some of my thoughts about it off the top of my head, I realize it isn't for everyone and that's ok.  

[Palmaceae]

Personally I would not do St Pete, lived there and even though it is 10a I just do not like the area anymore. I did like it in the 80's but it has changed. I really loved the Cape Coral/Ft Myers area, very palmy and just a nice area.

[Xenon]

In the Houston Area, I'd check out Clear Lake, League City, Nassau Bay, Seabrooke, and Webster. This area is a nice halfway point between downtown and the Gulf (30 minute drive in both directions). Pearland and Friendswood for something (more) suburban. Maybe Hobby Airport/South Houston and Pasadena area too which puts you closer to town. 

All of these areas have lots of palms. There are palmy areas closer to town but they are less affordable and of course more densely populated. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Xenon

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

1 hour ago, Palmaceae said:

Personally I would not do St Pete, lived there and even though it is 10a I just do not like the area anymore. I did like it in the 80's but it has changed. I really loved the Cape Coral/Ft Myers area, very palmy and just a nice area.

St Pete was a rather small city in the 1980's even 90's, and it was mostly nothing but retirmenetville USA.  It was also run down, and rather "ghetto".  Even as late as 2009/9/10 it was not that great of a city.   I have been visiting here since 1991 and have watched St Pete, and the entire TB area grow and change since then.    It has dramatically changed for the better since.  It is no longer retirementville USA at all.  Average age here is down to around 40.   It is a modernized, young, vibrant, cultured, progressive area now.     Crime is way down, poverty is way down.    What sold me on St Pete vs South FL (Fort Lauderdale) was its vibe (very coastal / tropical island vibe / lifestyle) , that it is a modern progressive area,  cultured, surrounded by water, loads and loads of parks and outdoor recreation opportunities, some of the most gorgeous beaches in 10-20 min drive away.  Its also smaller and not nearly as congested / rat racy as  South FL is, which did remind of a big of the Washington DC Metropolitan area, with palm trees and a beach.    But, I Digress. Each person is different and likes different things so the city it is now may not be appealing to some,  just as smaller / certain areas are less appealing to me. 

Fort Myers / Cape Coral area is nice enough, but there are several things that make that area a total no go for me.  I wont go into those here, but one of them is that its a bit small ish for me.     I do enjoy visiting down there though.  We camped on Pine Island 2 weekends ago and that was great.   The "Palmyness" there is great as well, a bit more so than where I live currently. I think the main reason for that is many in the southern Tampa Bay area just don't think to plant / use some more tropical palms as much.  There area plenty of very old, tall coconuts here, but they aren't everywhere like they are down there.  

[AnTonY]

11 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

And far south Texas.

Is technically 10A regarding recent hardiness zones. But isn't as strong of one compared to the other regions mentioned, and so won't satisfy the requirements I listed in the previous post.

[Xenon]

Personally I like Sarasota, driving along the bay is so scenic (and tropical). Going south into Manatee county on Sunshine Skyway is nice too. 

[RedRabbit]

Regarding St. Pete, I think it’s a great city. I didn’t suggest it though because it’s relatively expensive at this point. It also sounds like @Jake would prefer something more rural. Manatee or Sarasota would be a better fit, it’s just too bad the pay isn’t competitive with Houston. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by RedRabbit

[AnTonY]

On 2/21/2021 at 11:22 PM, NBTX11 said:

And far south Texas.

Disregard my earlier post. The best territory statewide is the lower RGV, including SPI.

[ahosey01]

On 2/21/2021 at 6:49 PM, Jake said:

So, I live in Missouri and I’m ready to get out. I can’t stand the cold, and I HATE the snow. I’ve wanted to move away for a long time, and I’m pretty dead set on doing it soon. I originally wanted to move to northern Florida, but I started to lean more towards SE Texas because of the cost of living. I’m a paramedic, and most jobs in Houston start around $60k. The majority of jobs in Florida start around $45k, and the price for homes/rent is generally higher than Texas. This could change, or I could go into nursing and make more money.. but the principle is the same. Florida = Less money and higher rent, Texas =more money and lower rent.

With this current freeze, I’m starting to rethink moving to Texas. Houston doesn’t have a huge amount of palms as it is, and I’ve heard that this freeze probably killed a good portion of the mature palms throughout the metro. If you live in the area: How true is this? Is there a massive amount of death? 
 
I found myself very disinterested with the northern areas of the metro (Cypress, The Woodlands, Humble, etc.) because of the lack of palms compared to Pearland, Sugar Land, and League City. Palms are very important to me, and I really would lose all interest in moving somewhere without a large concentration of them. My favorite palms are of the more northern variety. CIDP’s, Sylvestris, Robustas, Trachys, Sabals, and my favorites are Roebellinis and Euro fan palms. If these can’t survive, then I can’t say that I’m very interested in Texas anymore. 

Jacksonville Florida is also 9A, but they have a HELL of a lot more palms and way less cold compared to Houston. The landscape seems to be much prettier as well with a large amount of open greenspace; broken up by forests of large pines. Seems like a great place for palm growing! Granted, it does not have all of the amenities of the Houston metro.

Suggestions?

Couldn't tell you about moving to Houston as a palm lover.  Should definitely move there as a palm remover, after this winter though.  You'll have enough work this spring and summer to buy yourself a mansion on the coast in 10b Florida.

You could also move to the Colorado River basin in AZ.  IDK what you do for work or how many jobs there are over there, but Lake Havasu City's all time low was 25, ever.  And I believe it only happened once.  There, you could grow:

• Washingtonia
• Bismarckia
• Brahea
• Hyphaene
• Borassus
• Phoenix
• Coccothrinax
• Trithrinax
• Zombia
• Medemia
• Parajubaea
• Butia
• Psuedophoenix
• Chamaerops
• Sabal
• Nannorrhops

Probably more I'm not thinking of.

Edited February 24, 2021 by ahosey01

[Sabal_Louisiana]

So, kinda trippin on this dude's narrative. I get what he's saying about the cold, but let's break it down.  I used to live by a mantra that I wouldn't live in a place too cold to go grow a palm tree but think about the possibilities that eliminates: New York (before modernity, at least), Scandinavia, The Canadian Rockies. Have you been to any of these places and hung out? How about Austria? Dam. Quite frankly, even though I grew up on the bayou where we know how to have fun, some of the best times I've had in my life have been in places that couldn't even grow a Windmill.  And I think everybody knows this reality in essence, even us hardcore palm lovers, so I am only to conclude that this is a rather moot argument.

Now, to be fair, let's present the other side, I've also had a blast in much more palmy places than Houston or Jacksonville. WHERE you can make good money.  Been to SoCal, Arizona, peninsular Florida, had friends that lived in those places quite well without a college degree, got job offers myself,  and the money itself was never in issue in regards to my decision to live there or not.  Besides money, what about Thailand? Costa Rica? It's fire. I have a friend who's an engineer who's Thai. His brother back home doesn't even work - he sits around, has fun with girls and when he's hungry, picks food out of his garden. The guy's like 45 years old.

Now, regardless of climate, Houston's an alright town. So is Jacksonville. If I'm making 100 grand living in Houston and my boss is a prick, I don't have any friends, but oh but wait, there's lots of palms here. Is that going to really matter?

[ahosey01]

24 minutes ago, Sabal_Louisiana said:

Now, regardless of climate, Houston's an alright town. So is Jacksonville. If I'm making 100 grand living in Houston and my boss is a prick, I don't have any friends, but oh but wait, there's lots of palms here. Is that going to really matter?

Yes.  This is PalmTalk.  LOL

[Sabal_Louisiana]

ahosey01,

Point taken. It's important to have a niche in life. It helps if you're especially good at it.

[Jake]

2 hours ago, Sabal_Louisiana said:

So, kinda trippin on this dude's narrative. I get what he's saying about the cold, but let's break it down.  I used to live by a mantra that I wouldn't live in a place too cold to go grow a palm tree but think about the possibilities that eliminates: New York (before modernity, at least), Scandinavia, The Canadian Rockies. Have you been to any of these places and hung out? How about Austria? Dam. Quite frankly, even though I grew up on the bayou where we know how to have fun, some of the best times I've had in my life have been in places that couldn't even grow a Windmill.  And I think everybody knows this reality in essence, even us hardcore palm lovers, so I am only to conclude that this is a rather moot argument.

Now, to be fair, let's present the other side, I've also had a blast in much more palmy places than Houston or Jacksonville. WHERE you can make good money.  Been to SoCal, Arizona, peninsular Florida, had friends that lived in those places quite well without a college degree, got job offers myself,  and the money itself was never in issue in regards to my decision to live there or not.  Besides money, what about Thailand? Costa Rica? It's fire. I have a friend who's an engineer who's Thai. His brother back home doesn't even work - he sits around, has fun with girls and when he's hungry, picks food out of his garden. The guy's like 45 years old.

Now, regardless of climate, Houston's an alright town. So is Jacksonville. If I'm making 100 grand living in Houston and my boss is a prick, I don't have any friends, but oh but wait, there's lots of palms here. Is that going to really matter?

Yeah, it matters a bit to me. Why the hell would I move somewhere that doesn’t have something I like to have as a hobby? 

The average pay with OT at my work is $104k. If I only cared about money, I would stay here. 

Your argument honestly doesn’t make any sense to me. 

[RedRabbit]

1 hour ago, Jake said:

Yeah, it matters a bit to me. Why the hell would I move somewhere that doesn’t have something I like to have as a hobby? 

The average pay with OT at my work is $104k. If I only cared about money, I would stay here. 

Your argument honestly doesn’t make any sense to me. 

You make 104k in MO and you'd make 45k (before OT) in Manatee County? 

[Sabal_Louisiana]

Jake,

My apologies, man. Didn't mean to sound so crass. I'm sure things will work out for you.

[Jake]

25 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

You make 104k in MO and you'd make 45k (before OT) in Manatee County? 

I don’t, because I’m part time while finishing college; and I also have only been a paramedic for a year. The full timers start in the 60’s, and max at 90.
 

In EMS, about 1/3 of your income is made up via overtime. So let’s say you work 48 hours on, and 96 hours off. You work 56 hours a week. Every hour after 40 is 1.5x pay. So if you make 19 dollars an hour, (I think that’s the starting hourly) it works out to $63,272. We are subjected to be recalled for up to 24 hours as well, which gives us double time pay. So if you are maxed at 90 after seven years, (most of our FT guys have been here for awhile and have hit their max) and you are recalled once a month and pick up 12 hours of OT a month, you will be at 105k. That’s how it works, if any of that made sense. I could be making that kind of money if I applied for a FT position and waited a few years.

Manatee County starts at 13.50 an hour for 56 hours a week. They max at 75, which probably also takes seven years on the job. Manatee county is also much more expensive than St. Charles, Missouri.

 

 

[Jake]

21 minutes ago, Sabal_Louisiana said:

Jake,

My apologies, man. Didn't mean to sound so crass. I'm sure things will work out for you.

Oh, you’re fine buddy. Didn’t mean to sound angry, lol.

I agree that there is more to an area than palms. 

[Collectorpalms]

NO. As a palm lover, NO. After traveling in the lower 48, 
I loved Miami for Palms. It’s a world away. Second place is San Diego / Rancho Santa Fe, CA. I actually would prefer to live in CA.
I just murdered a lot of palms here in Texas. And will have to see them all over the place for years to come. And it was diseases sad enough taking out the oldest, now it’s gonna be a combo of stress and disease.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[Meangreen94z]

As far as Corpus, the neighborhoods along the seawall are nice. South of Corpus there are nice neighborhoods, I thought Flour Bluff was great, and North Padre Island is really nice. A lot nicer beaches and water than Galveston. Although everything on that Island is at risk for huge hurricanes. I considered those areas.
 

Honestly a lot of Houston is ghetto too, I lived there for 35 years. It’s always changing. As far as where I would live for palms and a nice area: Kemah, Seabrook, and League City

Flour Bluff and North Padre are 9B but were approaching 10A prior to this winter. I think the coldest it had gotten  between the winters of 1989 and 2021 was 26*F. There’s a member who grows Coconuts for several years at a time down there. I would go look at those two areas. Also drive out onto the National Seashore area. You won’t find an area with water and sand like that anywhere near Houston. 

[Steve the palmreader]

 One thing that should be considered is the offical temps in Jacksonville is the they are recorded at JIA which is in the extreme norhtwest part of the city  were temps are about 5 degree cooler during cold events

[AnTonY]

4 hours ago, Steve the palmreader said:

 One thing that should be considered is the offical temps in Jacksonville is the they are recorded at JIA which is in the extreme norhtwest part of the city  were temps are about 5 degree cooler during cold events

True.

[Ivanos1982]

As a palm lover Id say go for Florida. I live in Houston and there are always gonna be palms here and if you don't see them in the north, when you visit Galveston and Kemah (you will eventually) you will see them. However and this is a big issue for me, crime is getting pretty scary here. Violent crime that is, and not just among gangs but they are targeting working people. A friend of mine got shot and killed while exercising in Montrose in broad daylight just so they could steal his phone.  It's bad... I have palms, queens specifically. So far they look like they survived the recent artic frost since their spears are not pulling and they are green on the center. Time will tell. I'm actually considering moving to Orlando or maybe even more south if possible. Palms are a reason but I also like the beach and warm weather. It seems it's a lot "cooler" in Houston than people say. Everyone complains about how hot and humid it is but I actually find it that it's only that way for a few months. The rest of the year it's not hot at all. Nights get cool too from September to March. So if you are someone that likes being in the pool all year and barefoot, shorts etc, Houston is not gonna work except for a few months. It's palmy but not necessarily tropical. Also there is a culture here that I've noticed among gardeners and people in general of not liking palm trees. There's a weird association with what they call "palmetto" bugs or roaches. People here love their Crepe Myrtles but I don't see much love for palm trees. Also people want it to snow and are always complaining that they want cool weather. It's so strange. After living here for six years the last thing I want is an artic blast like the one we had yet people seem to think that now all the mosquitoes will disappear, which they dont. I'm just generalizing here according to what I have experienced. My neighbor cut down these beautiful windmill palms, they were so healthy too, she said she didnt like palm trees and wanted to get rid of them for a while and finally was able to. That's a common sentiment here. Not sure how it is in Orlando. So I would say if you have a choice, go for Orlando.

[RedRabbit]

12 hours ago, Jake said:

I don’t, because I’m part time while finishing college; and I also have only been a paramedic for a year. The full timers start in the 60’s, and max at 90.
 

In EMS, about 1/3 of your income is made up via overtime. So let’s say you work 48 hours on, and 96 hours off. You work 56 hours a week. Every hour after 40 is 1.5x pay. So if you make 19 dollars an hour, (I think that’s the starting hourly) it works out to $63,272. We are subjected to be recalled for up to 24 hours as well, which gives us double time pay. So if you are maxed at 90 after seven years, (most of our FT guys have been here for awhile and have hit their max) and you are recalled once a month and pick up 12 hours of OT a month, you will be at 105k. That’s how it works, if any of that made sense. I could be making that kind of money if I applied for a FT position and waited a few years.

Manatee County starts at 13.50 an hour for 56 hours a week. They max at 75, which probably also takes seven years on the job. Manatee county is also much more expensive than St. Charles, Missouri.

 

 

Thanks for explaining, 45k vs 104k just seemed like too much of a disparity. In reality I guess the average pay in Manatee is something like 20k less after OT etc.

For what it’s worth, early in your career I suggest trying to max out your disposable income so you can build up your assets. The more years you have that money compounding the better, it will make a big difference in the end. Whether that means living in MO, TX, or somewhere else like WA I’m not sure. 

[necturus]

The discussion of how "ghetto" cites are is really out of the scope of this forum. It's also absurd. Jax, Orlando, Houston, Miami... if you think any of these cities are uniformly "nicer" you must live in or visited a bubble. Or you've never visited the other cities. I'll never forget seeing homes in Miami which reminded me of the shanty town flats outside of Cape Town, the neighborhoods to the east of the Medical Center in Houston where roofs are caving in, or when a retired Air Force captain told me Orlando was the most crime- and poverty-ridden city he'd ever lived in. I like all these cities, but this stuff is unfortunately a part of most American cities. Save it for city-data.com.

Personally, this event was the final straw which convinced me to leave here. I can't leave any time soon, but at some point I will find my way to a place where palms really grow. Not just the scrappiest ones.  If I were you, I'd either go 1) where I could make and save the most money or 2) to Miami or Big Island. Probably makes more sense to do #1 first and then take that money to #2.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

2 hours ago, necturus said:

The discussion of how "ghetto" cites are is really out of the scope of this forum. It's also absurd. Jax, Orlando, Houston, Miami... if you think any of these cities are uniformly "nicer" you must live in or visited a bubble. Or you've never visited the other cities. I'll never forget seeing homes in Miami which reminded me of the shanty town flats outside of Cape Town, the neighborhoods to the east of the Medical Center in Houston where roofs are caving in, or when a retired Air Force captain told me Orlando was the most crime- and poverty-ridden city he'd ever lived in. I like all these cities, but this stuff is unfortunately a part of most American cities. Save it for city-data.com.

Personally, this event was the final straw which convinced me to leave here. I can't leave any time soon, but at some point I will find my way to a place where palms really grow. Not just the scrappiest ones.  If I were you, I'd either go 1) where I could make and save the most money or 2) to Miami or Big Island. Probably makes more sense to do #1 first and then take that money to #2.

All cities are going to have their bad areas / parts. It's just a fact of life around the world.   I've never been to a mid sized - big city that didnt have those parts in some places.   I think forming opinions on just those parts isn't the greatest idea personally.  Hell even many small towns have them.  I know I lived in a small town with a "bad area".    Out of all the cities you mentnioned there is really only one I wouldnt live in and it has notning to do with any  "bad areas".  Jax is just too cold and too small (its urban area isnt large, it only is the largest "city" in FL becase it annexed almost an entire county within its city limits, so its really like the 4th or 5th largest or less) and there isn't much going on there.   

 

I think your advice to the OP is sound, but I can say also that I think they would be happier in a solidly warm climate while doing number 1.    I know they dont want big city type area though, so its a bit of a catch 22.  I suppose there is always commuting.  I know lots of people that work in Tampa and live in not so crowded and fairly tropical Manatee County FL.  Id vote they look at that area of southe centeral peninsular FL, or even around the Orlando area to the south.   They can always save that money and move to an even more tropical area, but can also still enjoy a reasonbly tropical / palmy place while working too.

[AnTonY]

3 hours ago, Ivanos1982 said:

I live in Houston and there are always gonna be palms here and if you don't see them in the north, when you visit Galveston and Kemah (you will eventually) you will see them. However and this is a big issue for me, crime is getting pretty scary here. Violent crime that is, and not just among gangs but they are targeting working people. A friend of mine got shot and killed while exercising in Montrose in broad daylight just so they could steal his phone.  It's bad...

I have palms, queens specifically. So far they look like they survived the recent artic frost since their spears are not pulling and they are green on the center. Time will tell. I'm actually considering moving to Orlando or maybe even more south if possible. Palms are a reason but I also like the beach and warm weather. It seems it's a lot "cooler" in Houston than people say. Everyone complains about how hot and humid it is but I actually find it that it's only that way for a few months. The rest of the year it's not hot at all. Nights get cool too from September to March. So if you are someone that likes being in the pool all year and barefoot, shorts etc, Houston is not gonna work except for a few months.

It's palmy but not necessarily tropical. Also there is a culture here that I've noticed among gardeners and people in general of not liking palm trees. There's a weird association with what they call "palmetto" bugs or roaches. People here love their Crepe Myrtles but I don't see much love for palm trees. Also people want it to snow and are always complaining that they want cool weather. It's so strange. After living here for six years the last thing I want is an artic blast like the one we had yet people seem to think that now all the mosquitoes will disappear, which they dont. I'm just generalizing here according to what I have experienced. My neighbor cut down these beautiful windmill palms, they were so healthy too, she said she didnt like palm trees and wanted to get rid of them for a while and finally was able to. That's a common sentiment here. Not sure how it is in Orlando. So I would say if you have a choice, go for Orlando.

You know what, I have noticed quite the uptick in crime across Houston, within the last year or so. I've even noticed multiple events in a single day at one point last summer. It's so strange, I don't know what is going on - not sure if its the effects of COVID lockdown, or some other factor...

You're also correct on the duration of hot weather across the Houston area. I personally consider September in Houston an extension of the core summer season. May and October are also quite hot many years, but I find the heat much less humid than during the four summer months. April and November are more variable year-to-year than the former two months, but the weather is solidly milder heat. March is the most variable, it can either be an extension of winter w/ continued fronts, cooler rains, etc, or it can be the jumpstart into spring w/ hot days akin to April or May.

I agree that it's very strange how rabid and/or palpable people can be with regards to "dislike" of palm trees in the Houston area. I understand that there's a sort of "tastefulness" when the plantings aren't done ideally. But many of these same people are also quick to jump on the "native vegetation" argument, even though, as you allude to, you rarely see such issues being raised against the crepe myrtles and other such East-Asian shrubbery seen across the area...

And, honestly, what you describe about desire for cold, Arctic weather - I notice it on a lot of online sites that I frequent. I especially notice it on the weather forums that I frequently lurk on (storm2k, for instance) - as a matter of fact, I've never seen a wx weather board that wasn't cold-biased in some sort of fashion. It's an interesting phenomenon if you think about it. However, it's less prevalent in real-life - many people just want the edge taken away from the heat and humidity, not necessarily that they want cold, icy weather. I've looked through many Houston-based posts on twitter, there are a lot of complaints about the temperature swings from the cold-fronts, regarding how "bi-polar" the weather is across the city. Ultimately, I think this past winter event, with the level of devastation it has caused statewide, will actually cause people to rethink their interests regarding cold/snowy weather, especially in places like Houston where such events are meant to be infrequent.

[NBTX11]

12 hours ago, Steve the palmreader said:

 One thing that should be considered is the offical temps in Jacksonville is the they are recorded at JIA which is in the extreme norhtwest part of the city  were temps are about 5 degree cooler during cold events

As are the Houston temps at the Bush Airport north of town.

[Xenon]

12 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

As are the Houston temps at the Bush Airport north of town.

Even Hobby (averages 28F for the past 30 years) runs colder than central Houston. Not looking to spark the firestorm of "Houston is zone 10a" but if you were to crunch the numbers for the past 30 years there is a swath of central Houston that is at or above the 30F mark. It's not a huge area but it isn't tiny either, probably about 25 sq miles in total. 

[NBTX11]

2 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Even Hobby (averages 28F for the past 30 years) runs colder than central Houston. Not looking to spark the firestorm of "Houston is zone 10a" but if you were to crunch the numbers for the past 30 years there is a swath of central Houston that is at or above the 30F mark. It's not a huge area but it isn't tiny either, probably about 25 sq miles in total. 

Don't say anything about Houston being warm around here or you will spark a huge debate (despite overall statistics and hard data).

[ahosey01]

4 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

All cities are going to have their bad areas / parts. It's just a fact of life around the world.   I've never been to a mid sized - big city that didnt have those parts in some places.   I think forming opinions on just those parts isn't the greatest idea personally.  Hell even many small towns have them.  I know I lived in a small town with a "bad area".    Out of all the cities you mentnioned there is really only one I wouldnt live in and it has notning to do with any  "bad areas".  Jax is just too cold and too small (its urban area isnt large, it only is the largest "city" in FL becase it annexed almost an entire county within its city limits, so its really like the 4th or 5th largest or less) and there isn't much going on there.   

This is true except for Santa Monica, which somehow manages differently than the entire rest of the world.  LOL.

They've also never officially hit freezing.

Edited February 26, 2021 by ahosey01

[Sabal_Louisiana]

Ivanos 1982 said:

People here love their Crepe Myrtles but I don't see much love for palm trees. 

'Crap' Myrtles - such an overrated plant (familiarity breeds contempt). Messy, and most of the time they're planted erroneously within 8-10 feet of a house, which creates a host of potential problems.

Also people want it to snow and are always complaining that they want cool weather.

Those that do are somewhat delusional. Houston lies at 30N latitude., as is Cairo, Egypt. It's not 'supposed' to be cool 2/3 of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator; the coldness that this area gets is the result of a 'free lunch' by a rather unique setup of natural landforms. Imagine the lack of cold if by chance there was a mountain range across Oklahoma, for instance. If you want cool weather, move to Seattle.

AnTonY said:

I agree that it's very strange how rabid and/or palpable people can be with regards to "dislike" of palm trees in the Houston area. I understand that there's a sort of "tastefulness" when the plantings aren't done ideally.

I can't speak for the people in Houston but is this really so? I would imagine they would be either pro-palm or indifferent. I will say, I visited one of the major local plant nurseries in my area and asked about their palms and the guy in charge almost seemed proud that they weren't interested in carrying too many of them for the public.  What does irk me is the prevalence of neglected or overly manicured palms or poor arrangement - One could easily start a thread on this and have a field day with sample pics.  Also, I understand that there is a bit of anti-palm sentiment, which I sort of understand but still don't necessarily agree with in northwestern Florida. There's lots of folks there who like the idea of being more like the 'Deep South', where live oaks and spanish moss are fine, but the (over)planting of Sabals is not.

I've never seen a wx weather board that wasn't cold-biased in some sort of fashion....

I remember seeing one with a subtopic "Texas Winter Weather' and I went to it last week to see how they could possibly justify their excitement a week into the deep freeze. Of course, they were crying Uncle. These cold weather junkies probably never worked 12 hour days outdoors in the elements. That will cure you real quick of your infatuation with the cold (or heat).

 there are a lot of complaints about the temperature swings from the cold-fronts, regarding how "bi-polar" the weather is across the city

Yea, I CAN understand that. But i'm sure some complain about the monotony of the weather in a particular place. If you move to Las Vegas from Houston, you may find yourself missing the rain and clouds after a while.

[RedRabbit]

6 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

 I've never been to a mid sized - big city that didnt have those parts in some places.    

I’ve traveled a lot and Bellevue, WA is the only place that comes to mind. 

[Xenon]

I don't think the perception that "Houstonians don't like palms" is true across the board, probably just depends on what circles you find yourself in. There are plenty of people in Houston that like palms and the tropical look. 

If Houston was anti-palm, there wouldn't be such palm-heavy landscapes in some of the most prominent areas of the city i.e Highland Village, River Oaks Mall, NASA Rd 1, Hobby Airport, the Gulf Freeway, City Centre...(could go on and on). Sure River Oaks doesn't heavily promote the tropical look but go into any of the adjacent neighborhoods like Rice Military, Washington Ave, Southampton, and Montrose and you will see palms everywhere both as accents and as dominate landscape material. 

[palmsOrl]

From a purely palm perspective, based on what you have expressed an interest in growing, Houston should be fine.  Bear in mind, though, that as you traverse deeper into the hobby, your tastes may broaden and become more exotic and you may want real estate on which to grow some of the more tropical, luxuriant options.

As such, you may look at zone 10 spots on the Florida peninsula.  These include: all of South Florida, the majority of immediate coastal Central Florida and the Orlando metro area as well as scattered microclimates in cities and small areas adjacent to larger lakes in inland South Central Florida.

Then there are all the other factors to consider.

-Michael

[RedRabbit]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:05 AM, Xenon said:

As far as where you want to live based on the palms (and only palms haha), here's a rough sketch:

 

I'm not basing this on last week (that's just brutal) but rather the preceding 20-30 years with the benchmarks being the 2010, 2011, and 2018 freezes. Based on real observation by me and others; confidence level is lower away from the nucleus and coastal I-45 corridor. 

Blue = queen palms
Red = pygmy dates
Purple = majesty palm
Green = Norfolk pine
Orange = royal and foxtail palms 

Great map! Do you know of anything interesting growing in the Rice University area? Looks like it’s got a strong heat island there.

[Xenon]

4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Great map! Do you know of anything interesting growing in the Rice University area? Looks like it’s got a strong heat island there.

Not with the landscape changing total reset freezes of the last 4 years. #1, #2, and #3 worst freezes in 30 years boom boom boom almost consecutively, #1 and #2 especially were far colder than anything seen in the preceding 30 years. When you have a super mega advective week long 1980s level freeze, UHI is irrelevant. 

Like the map says, the area was warm enough for "long-term" pygmy dates and majesty palms from at least the mid-late 90s to 2020. At the warmest point in 2009 after a long streak of warm winters (nothing below 27-28F) since 1997, a lot of upper 9b/zone 10 stuff appeared. Large fruiting mango trees, foxtail palms, etc. Nobody believes me when I say this stuff existed given how cold it's been lately to the point that the formerly landscape staple queen palm keeps dying 😆. Yeah it's been the complete opposite of Florida's incredible mild winter streak here in TX.

[RedRabbit]

3 hours ago, Xenon said:

Not with the landscape changing total reset freezes of the last 4 years. #1, #2, and #3 worst freezes in 30 years boom boom boom almost consecutively, #1 and #2 especially were far colder than anything seen in the preceding 30 years. When you have a super mega advective week long 1980s level freeze, UHI is irrelevant. 

Like the map says, the area was warm enough for "long-term" pygmy dates and majesty palms from at least the mid-late 90s to 2020. At the warmest point in 2009 after a long streak of warm winters (nothing below 27-28F) since 1997, a lot of upper 9b/zone 10 stuff appeared. Large fruiting mango trees, foxtail palms, etc. Nobody believes me when I say this stuff existed given how cold it's been lately to the point that the formerly landscape staple queen palm keeps dying 😆. Yeah it's been the complete opposite of Florida's incredible mild winter streak here in TX.

Thanks for sharing your observations there! 

[RedRabbit]

On 4/9/2024 at 6:42 AM, Xenon said:

Not with the landscape changing total reset freezes of the last 4 years. #1, #2, and #3 worst freezes in 30 years boom boom boom almost consecutively, #1 and #2 especially were far colder than anything seen in the preceding 30 years. When you have a super mega advective week long 1980s level freeze, UHI is irrelevant. 

Like the map says, the area was warm enough for "long-term" pygmy dates and majesty palms from at least the mid-late 90s to 2020. At the warmest point in 2009 after a long streak of warm winters (nothing below 27-28F) since 1997, a lot of upper 9b/zone 10 stuff appeared. Large fruiting mango trees, foxtail palms, etc. Nobody believes me when I say this stuff existed given how cold it's been lately to the point that the formerly landscape staple queen palm keeps dying 😆. Yeah it's been the complete opposite of Florida's incredible mild winter streak here in TX.

I was thinking, if parts of TX are z10 and occasionally a 2021 happens, I wonder if clumping palms might be a good option. Do you know if any c lutesens, a triandra, or a wrightii survived?  I’m sure they would have been knocked to the ground, but maybe came back from the roots?

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

I was thinking, if parts of TX are z10 and occasionally a 2021 happens, I wonder if clumping palms might be a good option. Do you know if any c lutesens, a triandra, or a wrightii survived?  I’m sure they would have been knocked to the ground, but maybe came back from the roots?

The southern tip of Texas/RGV (zone 10) is a completely different world to Houston. C. lutescens froze to ground level for the most part but aerial stems survived in warmer pockets, especially near buildings. They do come back from ground level, even in Houston. A. wrightii did not lose aerial stems for the most part, only defoliation or just moderate foliar damage depending on the area. Haven't heard of any A. triandra. 

That being said, solitary tropical crownshaft palms survived in large numbers too. Royal survival was as high as 50-80% in Brownsville/SPI and the southern part of the McAllen area. Foxtails and Dypsis decaryi also did well and the many of the few Archontophoenix also survived. Have seen Hyophorbe survive here and there too, especially closer to the coast. There are a few others in private collections too. There's even one coconut still around. Many rare fan palms survived such as cuban Copernicia spp, Tahina, Medemia, etc.  It was not a complete landscape changing freeze down there compared to Houston.