Getting ready to germinate Parajubaea torallyi microcarpa seeds

[Fallen Munk]

By far the most difficult seeds I've ever had to clean.  Germinating tips welcomed!

[Fallen Munk]

They have faces.  Each seed can have up to three embryos.  I've read that in Bolivia, they clean these by feeding them to livestock and pick them out of the manure.

[RJ]

The stomach acids may aid in germinating... lessons can be learned from this 

[Fallen Munk]

37 minutes ago, RJ said:

The stomach acids may aid in germinating... lessons can be learned from this 

I put them in acid with sand and gravel inside a rock tumbler and it still took a week.

[RJ]

11 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

I put them in acid with sand and gravel inside a rock tumbler and it still took a week.

Whoa... what acid did you use? Perhaps you can hit them with a file? Sometimes I've had to do that with tree seeds that are stubborn,....

[Fallen Munk]

1 hour ago, RJ said:

Whoa... what acid did you use? Perhaps you can hit them with a file? Sometimes I've had to do that with tree seeds that are stubborn,....

Sulfuric acid.  It was the only way to get all of the fruit off.  It's very fibrous and adheres tightly to the seed.  Possibly with enough time it would rot off.  I hear that some people bag them up with banana peels to speed up the process but I think no matter what there would be some fruit dried to the seed that would mold as soon as you tried to geminate them.

I used a hammer to beat the fruit to a pulp, peeled off what I could, then put them in the tumbler with gravel and sand for three days and that didn't do much so I added the acid and it still took about four more days.  They are super clean now.  I'm drying them for a few days to simulate what might happen after they drop from an animal and then I'll soak for a day and pot them up.  No need for the file on these, the gravel and sand did a great job roughing them up.

[Fallen Munk]

First signs of germination for a few of the seeds today.  About 6 1/2 months.  Not too bad by what I've researched.

[BeyondTheGarden]

What method did you use?

[Fallen Munk]

57 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

What method did you use?

I put them in a reptile incubator with day/night temperature cycle.

[Fallen Munk]

Slowly pushing roots.  Keeping them between 50F and 60F for the most part.  The majority of the germination was 70F night, 85F day.  A half dozen seeds rotted so I pulled the whole container out of the incubator and just sat them in an unheated room in my basement.  They started germinating within a week of cooler temperatures.  Opposite of what I have read.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Fallen Munk

[Scott W]

5 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

They started germinating within a week of cooler temperatures.  Opposite of what I have read.

Interesting indeed.

[Fallen Munk]

I only ended up with those two for some reason.  I'm starting over with a fresh batch of seeds this year.  I'm not going to clean them.  I'm going to let the fruit dry up naturally over the summer, winter them in the basement, then peel off whatever I can next spring and pot them up.  There has to be a reason why the fruit is so thick and tough on these and I'm thinking it could be to mature the seeds for a year or more.  Trying to speed up the process might not be the best approach.  At any rate, I'm determined to figure it out.  

The seller did provide me with a handful of seeds that look like leftovers from last season, so I did peel off some of the fiber and pot those up in a black pot and put it in the hottest place in my yard.  We'll see if those sprout this year.

 

[8BPalms]

I've seen various propagations get susceptible to damping off and getting moldy indoors when there is high humidity and improper ventilation and the temp is above about 77F. This has proved at least true for rooting cuttings indoors, and I admit seeds are more hardy but the same concept sort of applies indoors, in my experience at least. More often than not I find propagating outdoors more successful, during the right times of year of course. What was the humidity and air flow like in the incubator?

[Fallen Munk]

1 hour ago, 8BPalms said:

I've seen various propagations get susceptible to damping off and getting moldy indoors when there is high humidity and improper ventilation and the temp is above about 77F. This has proved at least true for rooting cuttings indoors, and I admit seeds are more hardy but the same concept sort of applies indoors, in my experience at least. More often than not I find propagating outdoors more successful, during the right times of year of course. What was the humidity and air flow like in the incubator?

I suppose it could have been too wet.  My humidity meter is in the incubator, but not in the individual container with the seeds.  They rotted, but the most interesting thing is that even though they were on sterile media, there were these small worms coming out of the holes at the bottom of the seeds.

[BeyondTheGarden]

If I may ask, where did you source these seeds?  

[bruce Steele]

Jesse, I was wondering the same thing . I was hoping someone in Calif. has viable seed for any of the Parajubaea. But after watching what Fallen Munk went through I seriously question my skill set to get these seeds to germinate even if I had them in my possession. 
Heating pads on a daily cycle six months then put in a ( cold ) basement. 
I appreciate Fallen Munk sharing his knowledge on germinating  various palms. If Jubaea are easy Parajubaea looks to be very challenging. 
Gotta try it if I ever find some seed. Gotta learn to not look at them so often.

 

[Fallen Munk]

21 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

If I may ask, where did you source these seeds?  

ebay seller in California.

[Fallen Munk]

9 hours ago, bruce Steele said:

Jesse, I was wondering the same thing . I was hoping someone in Calif. has viable seed for any of the Parajubaea. But after watching what Fallen Munk went through I seriously question my skill set to get these seeds to germinate even if I had them in my possession. 
Heating pads on a daily cycle six months then put in a ( cold ) basement. 
I appreciate Fallen Munk sharing his knowledge on germinating  various palms. If Jubaea are easy Parajubaea looks to be very challenging. 
Gotta try it if I ever find some seed. Gotta learn to not look at them so often.

 

Thanks for the kind comment.  Jubaea are easy because I can remove the shell.  Parajubaea shell is way too thick to remove without damaging the seed.  I tried numerous methods and none worked.  Possibly a dremel to score it but good chance you'd nick the seed.  I'm going to try to rot the fruit off by piling banana peels on top of it.  I wish I still bred cockroaches to feed to my lizards.  They could strip all the fruit off these things in a day if they were hungry enough.  I'm still thinking that the natural way is best with these.  Pile them up in the yard and let them sit.  If I can keep the squirrels away.  I think I'll fill a pot full of leaf mulch and dump them on top of the mulch.  Then cover that pot with another pot inverted like a pressure cooker. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Fallen Munk
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[BeyondTheGarden]

Nice.  

I've found Ebay to be fairly reliable for palm seed viability.  However regular garden seeds from Ebay seem to be hit-or-miss. 

[TheMadScientist]

@Fallen Munk, I'm tipping my hat to you sir for your successes posted above for P. Tor.  @bruce Steele, the 2 most photographed Para. Tor. & Coco. next to each other at Ventura College, were butchered Oct. 2021 by a team of beginning trimmers, removing any and all seed clusters and fronds leaving the minimum higher than horizontal.

The first problem I had with this species, they seem to stay green the 9 months I observed some.  I saw "flowers" with bees, but didn't see the bees active with the seeds that were to grow, so I have an ignorance of them being pollinated.  One of the reasons a number of species seem to be long term germinators, they have the thick shells with fiber barriers that I think create a hermetic seal (just a guess) that doesn't allow moisture to enter quickly.  I found a number of posted threads duplicating their wet / dry seasons.  

I collected about 12 seeds, spent too much time trying to remove the fruit because of the irregular seed surface (I won't do the fruit removal again, let it dry).  Drying will separate the embryo from the thick shell as to NOT hurt the embryo.  Photo below is after 3 months of drying.  I do have a dremel with radial cutters, but this time I used my pedestal 16" disc sander to put at least 4 flat spots on it.  Put it in a heavy duty vice and apply very light pressure until you hear the "crack" or sand those spots a little more, SAFETY GLASSES AND TOWEL ON TOP OF VICE MANDATORY.  I did not hurt any embryos, 2nd photo shows the pieces/parts.  Notice a dark brown on the inside of the shell, leads to where the germination would occur.  I have only been weeks in the community pot with moist mixture.  I will add more to this with any success..

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by TheMadScientist

[Fallen Munk]

2 hours ago, TheMadScientist said:

@Fallen Munk, I'm tipping my hat to you sir for your successes posted above for P. Tor.

Thanks!  I appreciate the info of how you were able to remove the shells without damaging the seed.  I think I messed up last season by not drying them.  What I'm starting to believe is that these seeds will not germinate until they dry enough to pull away from the shell, and then the pores on the end of the seed can allow water inside.  Best of luck with your germination.  I'd bet that as long as you gently place the kernels on top of your medium and don't get them too wet, it should be just a few weeks before they pop a root.

[Fallen Munk]

So here's the setup.  Leaf mold base with worms.  Seeds and banana peels on top.  The theory is to speed the fruit ripening and decomposition.  I'm covering this with another black pot to raise temperatures and keep the squirrels out.  I whacked each fruit with a hammer to break though the skin.  I'm hoping that encourages the worms to eat the fruit off easier.  

[Fallen Munk]

I stripped the fruit off today and have a theory on these seeds and their challenges.  My theory is that the seeds drop before the fruit ripens and that the seeds are still immature until the fruit rots off.  That's probably why only two of mine germinated last year.  I painstakingly removed the hard green fruit and set about the germination process.

This season I waited for most of the fruit to rot off and it was easily removed.  There is still a bit of stringy fruit adhered to the seeds that can be removed with a nylon bristle brush.  My plan is to soak them and brush the remaining fruit off and then community pot them.  Pretty much how nature would do it after the bugs and rats eat the fruit off.  I considered drying them for a month, but I just think following nature's lead is the smartest way forward.  We've had a cold wet spring here and I think keeping them in that environment is probably the best.  I'm hoping for a few to sprout in the fall, but I expect it will be next spring before these germinate.

One thing I almost forgot to add...The seeds I've cleaned bubble in water through various parts of the seed, so I know the shell is permeable now.  That's probably another key to germination.  And one reason why I don't think I need to dry them as was previously planned.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Fallen Munk
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