Mystery palm in London?

[UK_Palms]

London's resident palm video guy, RH Grows, recently uploaded a video of a strange palm at Lincoln Inn Fields in central London.

I'm not sure whether this is a regular CIDP, or some kind of CIDP hybrid? At first glance, it kind of looks like a Butia, but it's clearly a Phoenix of some sort. It almost looks like a Butia x CIDP hybrid, which is obviously impossible. The fronds and crown kind of have that Butia look, but it's clearly a Phoenix of some sort. Almost certainly CIDP, or hybridised with something like Dacty, Sylvestris, Rupicola etc.

One thing to mention is that the palm is also grown in deep shade, which I believe could effect the frond size/length, but that would not explain the strange crown and slim trunk. Something just seems very different about it. For all I know it could just be a regular CIDP though. I don't know what other people think it is...?

 

 

[UK_Palms]

Bump. I was hoping some of the palm experts on here could clarify exactly what species this is...?

[Jim in Los Altos]

Shade grown Phoenix dactylifera or hybrid with perhaps P. sylvestris. Looks healthy. 

[DAVEinMB]

21 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

London's resident palm video guy, RH Grows, recently uploaded a video of a strange palm at Lincoln Inn Fields in central London.

I'm not sure whether this is a regular CIDP, or some kind of CIDP hybrid? At first glance, it kind of looks like a Butia, but it's clearly a Phoenix of some sort. It almost looks like a Butia x CIDP hybrid, which is obviously impossible. The fronds and crown kind of have that Butia look, but it's clearly a Phoenix of some sort. Almost certainly CIDP, or hybridised with something like Dacty, Sylvestris, Rupicola etc.

One thing to mention is that the palm is also grown in deep shade, which I believe could effect the frond size/length, but that would not explain the strange crown and slim trunk. Something just seems very different about it. For all I know it could just be a regular CIDP though. I don't know what other people think it is...?

 

 

Holy smokes that thing is gorgeous. It definitely looks like a Phoenix hybrid, the leaflets differ from CIDP in their size and rigidity.

I'd really like to see some high res stills of the fronds; i can see how it could be mistaken for a butia. 

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Shade grown Phoenix dactylifera or hybrid with perhaps P. sylvestris. Looks healthy. 

So you're seeing way more Dactylifera in that specimen than CIDP?

This is at 51N, so you would think a Dacty would need, at the very least, to be in full sun this far north, or up against a building. But there's also 30 foot Washingtonia Filifera's in London nowadays, so perhaps it is actually a Dacty...?

CIDP x Sylvestris was my other bet, which you also suggest it could be. Or did you mean Dacty x Sylvestris...?

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, DAVEinMB said:

Holy smokes that thing is gorgeous. It definitely looks like a Phoenix hybrid, the leaflets differ from CIDP in their size and rigidity.

I'd really like to see some high res stills of the fronds; i can see how it could be mistaken for a butia. 

Yeah the fronds and leaflets definitely look different to CIDP.  At the very least, I think it has to be a CIDP hybrid, but it is very difficult to tell whether it is a hybrid with Dactylifera, Sylvestris, Rupicola etc. Dave seems to think it could be a pure Dacty even? I am totally stumped on this one though. Any ideas what it could be exactly?

I doubt I'll be in London any time soon, so I'll see if one of the palm guys out that way can get some close up shots of it at some point. That should help with identification. This winter just gone has been the worst in years, very cold with snow, so I am surprised to see it looking so healthy too. It probably didn't see anything lower than 25-26F in central London though. 

[Palmfarmer]

It looked a bit like a Triangle, but then i saw the trunk. Beatiful palm.

Would something like a Majesty or Kentia do fine in the mildest parts of central london?

[palmsOrl]

25 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

It looked a bit like a Triangle, but then i saw the trunk. Beatiful palm.

Would something like a Majesty or Kentia do fine in the mildest parts of central london?

Probably not long-term even in the warmest microclimates of London.  You would probably get a few years out of them between colder winters.  The winter chill is also a factor.

[UK_Palms]

27 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

It looked a bit like a Triangle, but then i saw the trunk. Beatiful palm.

Would something like a Majesty or Kentia do fine in the mildest parts of central london?

I certainly wouldn't trust them to survive long-term in London. You could probably get them through 2 out of 3 winters fine, but then you get a cold winter like the one just gone and they will probably be in big trouble. A really bad winter like 2010/11 will almost certainly kill them. Then again, I know of a small Beccariophoenix Alfredii that has survived several winters outdoors in London. I wonder how that high mountain coconut is doing now, given how cold last winter was? I would be surprised if it is still alive. Definitely not long-term there.

The coldest central London went down to last winter was about 25F, but the duration is more of the issue. Although we don't get severe freezes, the temperature also won't rise above 60F for about 3-4 months straight, from mid November to mid March. We've had 70F in February before, but that is rare. Annual rainfall is only 20 inches, but there is a hell of a lot of rain in the October - December period, then it is just wet and fairly cold right through to March. But on the flip-side, we're pretty damn dry from March - September here. You can see in the video just how dry the ground already is there in mid April. It's kind of like a dry-summer Oceanic climate. 

[UK_Palms]

I've got my suspicions about the big Fulham one in central London having Dacty blood as well. The trunk and crown kind of look like Dactylifera, especially when up close and looking up at the crown, but the fronds clearly look like CIDP and it obviously has a more CIDP look in general. Especially when looking at it from afar. I mean you wouldn't think twice when viewing it from a distance. 

It probably is just a regular CIDP, but the trunk and crown just seem 'off' to me, especially when viewing them up close. Like they remind me of Dactylifera or Sylvestris. The skinny, reddish trunk would look much bigger and longer if the skirt was actually trimmed back. I think the trunk just seems too thin, in proportion to the crown, if it is a pure CIDP, surely? From afar it definitely does look like a pure CIDP though. So maybe it is just that. 

 

 

[Ryland]

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I've got my suspicions about the big Fulham one in central London having Dacty blood as well. The trunk and crown kind of look like Dactylifera, especially when up close and looking up at the crown, but the fronds clearly look like CIDP and it obviously has a more CIDP look in general. Especially when looking at it from afar. I mean you wouldn't think twice when viewing it from a distance. 

It probably is just a regular CIDP, but the trunk and crown just seem 'off' to me, especially when viewing them up close. Like they remind me of Dactylifera or Sylvestris. The skinny, reddish trunk would look much bigger and longer if the skirt was actually trimmed back. I think the trunk just seems too thin, in proportion to the crown, if it is a pure CIDP, surely? From afar it definitely does look like a pure CIDP though. So maybe it is just that. 

 

 

This looks like an ordinary Phoenix canariensis to me - a lovely one though.

I wouldn't be surprised about Phoenix dactylifera doing ok in London to be honest, provided it's got well-draining soil.  It doesn't get too cold, and there's enough heat I think one would certainly grow though perhaps slowly.  Interesting find the possible hybrid in the video.  I'm hoping for a trip to London this summer, in which case I can check it out.

To whoever has a Beccariophoenix or a Parajubaea in London (or anywhere in the UK) I am very jealous!

[UK_Palms]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:06 AM, Ryland said:

This looks like an ordinary Phoenix canariensis to me - a lovely one though.

I wouldn't be surprised about Phoenix dactylifera doing ok in London to be honest, provided it's got well-draining soil.  It doesn't get too cold, and there's enough heat I think one would certainly grow though perhaps slowly.  Interesting find the possible hybrid in the video.  I'm hoping for a trip to London this summer, in which case I can check it out.

To whoever has a Beccariophoenix or a Parajubaea in London (or anywhere in the UK) I am very jealous!

 

The Fulham one probably is a regular CIDP, but the trunk just seems a bit suspect to me. And the crown when looking up at it, when up close. We'll just assume that it is a regular CIDP though, as it clearly looks like a CIDP in general, especially from afar. Although the trunk is clearly skinnier than other CIDP's around London.

The identity of the other Phoenix in Lincoln Inn Fields is still up for debate though. I still have no idea what type of hybrid it could be...? Have you got any ideas? By all means do check it out when you visit London this year. Hopefully we can get some close up shots of the fronds and it's leaflets. I think it probably is a hybrid with Dactylifera or Sylvestris, but it's still up in the air.