Sabal Causiarum Cold Tolerance?

[Dartolution]

Has there been any additional data from the texas massacre this year regarding sabal causiarums tolerance to cold? 

 

[Swolte]

From what I have seen regarding unprotected specimens, the large one at JFGardens had very little damage (see pic, I believe the S. Causiarum is in the middle). Went down to 6F there. I had a small, unprotected one, that just suffered frond damage (see pic). Went down to 3F. Tough palm.
 

[Dartolution]

What was the duration of that cold? 

[Jtee]

I had heard these palms were a 9a palm and up. It’s interesting they survived that cold. 

[Swolte]

Here's an impression!

[buffy]

14 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Has there been any additional data from the texas massacre this year regarding sabal causiarums tolerance to cold? 

 

Mine's pushing fronds, but it's not full trunking. If they were fully trunking, I would expect them to be dead. I think a fully trunking S. causiuarum is good to around 10F. 

[Dartolution]

@buffy how's megatron doing? 

[Collectorpalms]

The palm that is believed to be one at the San Antonio botanical garden that is a few decades old I heard looked dead a month ago. Not sure if made any progress. It was around 10F.

Not sure about the Newer planted one at Mercer in Houston. It previously fried a significant amount after 2018 low of 19F. It had the characteristic papery ligules.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[buffy]

Megatron is pushing leaves just fine. It'll take awhile to replace the crown, but growth rate is good. Interesting enough, S. palmetto have been my most fragile trunking Sabal. They're all dead. My S. uresana is pushing good material now.  Same with S. mexicana. We're still a ways off from declaring victory on some of these, but Megatron is in the best shape. 

[Dartolution]

@buffy thats shocking to hear about the palmettos... I would not have expected that. Good news for Megatron though! 

[Swolte]

Megatron?? 

[Dartolution]

@Swolte check out @buffy thread. Beautiful huge sabal nicknamed "megatron." 

[Fusca]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:27 PM, Collectorpalms said:

The palm that is believed to be one at the San Antonio botanical garden that is a few decades old I heard looked dead a month ago. Not sure if made any progress. It was around 10F.

Ryan,

Just went by this palm at the SA botanical garden over the weekend.  It's finally showing a bit of green after almost 4 months.  I tried to get a picture but I don't think it shows much.  It's definitely going to take time to come back to looking normal.  They took out a lot of stuff and making changes.  Huge Silk Floss (Ceiba speciosa) and big clump of recovering Acoelorrhaphe wrightii we're among those taken out.

 

[Collectorpalms]

7 hours ago, Fusca said:

Ryan,

Just went by this palm at the SA botanical garden over the weekend.  It's finally showing a bit of green after almost 4 months.  I tried to get a picture but I don't think it shows much.  It's definitely going to take time to come back to looking normal.  They took out a lot of stuff and making changes.  Huge Silk Floss (Ceiba speciosa) and big clump of recovering Acoelorrhaphe wrightii we're among those taken out.

 

They Have been removing palms for most of my time in Texas. I just about stopped going there. I am afraid they may remove it if it doesn’t recover faster than they can get someone to cut it down. San Antonio Botanical garden Is no longer interesting To me anymore.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[buffy]

Sabal ‘Megatron’ is still in crown replacement mode, but it’s getting there.

[buffy]

Anybody ever use pinking shears to dress up how they cut away damaged leaf material? 

[Manalto]

2 hours ago, buffy said:

Anybody ever use pinking shears to dress up how they cut away damaged leaf material? 

I got a good laugh out of this one. The imagination and ingenuity of PT members warms my heart.

[Collectorpalms]

April 2022, Update from San Antonio Botanical Gardens. Google Reviews. Not my photo.

Sabal Causarium appears to have not made a good recovery. 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Dartolution]

@buffy so glad to see megatron made it! WHEW!

 

[MarcusH]

....few years later. I was wondering if you guys have more data about cold hardiness to add to this thread . I live in San Antonio , I recently planted a young Sabal Causiarum.  Feb 2021 was unique I don't expect this kind of event coming back any time soon. My question is was the S.Causiarum at the Botanical Garden still alive a year after the freeze?  The recovery didn't look very promising.  I would hate to cut down such a huge palm. 

[RFun]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:56 PM, Jtee said:

I had heard these palms were a 9a palm and up. It’s interesting they survived that cold. 

Short duration short in this case.  Some palms are certainly hardier than others of the same general variety.

[RFun]

Just now, RFun said:

Short duration short in this case.  Some palms are certainly hardier than others of the same general variety.

I meant short duration of cold in this case.  Anything too long and it would be a casualty.

[RFun]

Just now, RFun said:

I meant short duration of cold in this case.  Anything too long and it would be a casualty.

It would be a long duration for this area of the country and for this palm though.  That would be impressive.

[SailorBold]

On 5/7/2022 at 7:10 AM, buffy said:

Anybody ever use pinking shears to dress up how they cut away damaged leaf material? 

Lol.. just saw this..  bam!  You are now a licuala..

[RFun]

3 minutes ago, SailorBold said:

Lol.. just saw this..  bam!  You are now a licuala..

Definitely not a natural cut lol.

[MarcusH]

9 minutes ago, RFun said:

It would be a long duration for this area of the country and for this palm though.  That would be impressive.

Got you.  Does anybody know if there are more Sabal Causiarums in the SA area ? Survivors or only casualties ? 

[Meangreen94z]

I think they survived at a decent rate. The two at John Fairey Garden survived two nights of 6°F  and 100 hours freezing in 2021, mid teens the two following winters, and drought in the summers in between. The other Caribbean species that were part of that group planting died either from the cold or combined drought/heat the last 3 years, but the two causiarum live on. I know of several others.

[Fusca]

54 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

....few years later. I was wondering if you guys have more data about cold hardiness to add to this thread . I live in San Antonio , I recently planted a young Sabal Causiarum.  Feb 2021 was unique I don't expect this kind of event coming back any time soon. My question is was the S.Causiarum at the Botanical Garden still alive a year after the freeze?  The recovery didn't look very promising.  I would hate to cut down such a huge palm. 

From what I heard, the Sabal causiarum at the botanical garden was removed because it wasn't recovering fast enough from the February freeze.  It was still alive a year after but didn't look good in a public garden so they cut it down.  If it had been watered more I think it would have fully recovered.

[MarcusH]

9 minutes ago, Fusca said:

From what I heard, the Sabal causiarum at the botanical garden was removed because it wasn't recovering fast enough from the February freeze.  It was still alive a year after but didn't look good in a public garden so they cut it down.  If it had been watered more I think it would have fully recovered.

Thank you Jon for the quick answer .  I have never seen one in person to be honest. Do you know of any other Causiarums in the SA area or was that one at the Botanical Garden just a unicorn in SA? 

[Xenon]

Wasn't there some discussion a while back about the SABG specimen being S. domingensis and not S. causiarum?

Here's an unknown robust Caribbean (?) type Sabal in Brownsville, TX with cold burn after 23-24F to make it even more confusing. This is next to green/partially green queens and alive royals....so quite tender for a thick trunk Sabal. Sabal domingensis??

[Fusca]

25 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Wasn't there some discussion a while back about the SABG specimen being S. domingensis and not S. causiarum?

Here's an unknown robust Caribbean (?) type Sabal in Brownsville, TX with cold burn after 23-24F to make it even more confusing. This is next to green/partially green queens and alive royals....so quite tender for a thick trunk Sabal. Sabal domingensis??

I think you're right, there was some discussion about that.  I don't know how to distinguish the two except by the seeds.  The one at the SABG had small seeds like palmetto and seeds I obtained as domingensis were large like mexicana so based on that I would say causiarum.  If this one you posted took that much damage from 24°F and the one Daniel posted from John Fairey is labeled correctly I'd think it's domingensis.  I didn't think there was that much difference in cold hardiness between causiarum and domingensis but perhaps there is.  @MarcusH, I don't know of any others in SA.  It's possible that @iamjv has one (I know he's got a gorgeous silver uresana)

[Xenon]

36 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I think you're right, there was some discussion about that.  I don't know how to distinguish the two except by the seeds.  The one at the SABG had small seeds like palmetto and seeds I obtained as domingensis were large like mexicana so based on that I would say causiarum.  If this one you posted took that much damage from 24°F and the one Daniel posted from John Fairey is labeled correctly I'd think it's domingensis.  I didn't think there was that much difference in cold hardiness between causiarum and domingensis but perhaps there is.  @MarcusH, I don't know of any others in SA.  It's possible that @iamjv has one (I know he's got a gorgeous silver uresana)

I think there's some reports out of Florida of S. domingensis being more tender as well. IIRC, S. causiarum is actually the anomaly out of all of the Caribbean Sabal spp., being significantly more cold hardy. 

[ChrisA]

I remember reading that the SABG Sabal may have been dominguensis.  I took photos from before and after the freeze.  It’s a shame they took it out rather than giving it a chance., but perhaps it really succumbed afterwards and became too much of a risk. 
 

Here is the Botanical Garden specimen.  First photo from Jan 2021 the Sabal causiarum is the the palm just left of center. The second photo is from March 2021. The two sabal palms behind were also eventually removed due to constant freeze damage. Were they Mexicana!?  The third photo is from May 2022.

[ChrisA]

Reviewing more photos from the past there is this one I took December of 2015.  The geo-location has this near the beginning of the south Texas trail.  I don’t recall seeing this palm lately but will check next time I go! Maybe it still exists but the signage is gone.

 

 

[Meangreen94z]

4 hours ago, Fusca said:

I think you're right, there was some discussion about that.  I don't know how to distinguish the two except by the seeds.  The one at the SABG had small seeds like palmetto and seeds I obtained as domingensis were large like mexicana so based on that I would say causiarum.  If this one you posted took that much damage from 24°F and the one Daniel posted from John Fairey is labeled correctly I'd think it's domingensis.  I didn't think there was that much difference in cold hardiness between causiarum and domingensis but perhaps there is.  @MarcusH, I don't know of any others in SA.  It's possible that @iamjv has one (I know he's got a gorgeous silver uresana)

I know Joe at NTCHP was testing various Sabals and realized some of what he was selling as causiarum was domingensis, based on varying leaf hardiness. There is a lot of misidentification.

Here is another post where Jlevert mentions the causiarum in Augusta, Georgia as surviving 11° and 14°F and possibly colder since then. There are also causiarum at the “Bamboo farm” in Savannah, as well as specimen in Atlanta that have survived single digits.

 

[MarcusH]

So from my understanding it is safe to say S. Causiarum is cold hardy at around 10 to 12f with some exceptions where some species are more cold hardier handling temperatures in the upper single digits . Am I right?  

[ChrisA]

Went to SABT today to see if I could find the smaller palm that was labeled in 2015.  There are three young Sabals in the same are but I’m not savvy enough to know this species from any others, especially without seeds present. Here are the photos I took today as well as the map of where my geolocation tagged the original photo.

And to correct my prior post, the two sabals behind the large Causiarium are indeed still present. 
 

[Meangreen94z]

6 hours ago, MarcusH said:

So from my understanding it is safe to say S. Causiarum is cold hardy at around 10 to 12f with some exceptions where some species are more cold hardier handling temperatures in the upper single digits . Am I right?  

Probably a safe bet. They should last a long time in San Antonio.

[5am]

19 hours ago, MarcusH said:

So from my understanding it is safe to say S. Causiarum is cold hardy at around 10 to 12f with some exceptions where some species are more cold hardier handling temperatures in the upper single digits . Am I right?  

I can't answer that question but I can share some highlights from the 21 observations of S. Causiarum collected by kinzyjr in the cold hardiness master data, which is mostly from here on Palm Talk.

• Lowest temperature without damage: 14F (w/ overhead protection)
• Highest with damage: 22F
• Lowest survived: 3F
• Highest temperature that killed one: 19F
• There are 5 observations showing survival below 10F. 

[RFun]

On 10/22/2024 at 10:40 AM, MarcusH said:

So from my understanding it is safe to say S. Causiarum is cold hardy at around 10 to 12f with some exceptions where some species are more cold hardier handling temperatures in the upper single digits . Am I right?  

That's a tough call.  I'd just say short duration of around those temperatures or a bit colder seems about right.  Not an exact science.