Is this a Copernicia fallaensis?

[Gbarce]

A friend of mine is thinking of buying this palm that the vendor is saying is a Copernicia fallaensis.

The palm is about 3 feet tall ( from the base to the tip of the tallest leaf).

To me it doesn't look like a C. fallaensis because I think at that size the palm should look a lot "beefier" - thicker and shorter petioles in relation to the leaf.  And I would expect the leaf to be wider too.  It also looks too green and I would expect more blue/silver for a palm that size.  Though there does seem to be a bit of a waxy coating forming on the petioles.

The vendor is saying that this palm was grown in a shady position - which might explain why it looks skinnier than expected.

What do you think?

 

 

[Matt in SD]

Looks like my C hospita.

 

Matt

[mike in kurtistown]

This topic has inspired me to do a little bit of personal research, as I am growing Copernicia baileyana, fallaensis, and hospita here in east Hawaii Island. Most are still relatively young, no huge trunks, but maybe 5 to 8 feet high. I have taken pictures of the petiole spines.

First up is fallaensis. If one looks very carefully at the bottom of the petiole, a few widely-spaced spines can be seen. Higher up, spines are not visible. They are there, but very thin and small and right up against the petiole. Cinder blocks are 8 x 8 x 16 inches (sorry, metric users).

 

Nest up is baileyana. Here, there are numerous prominent spines all up and down the petiole, but becoming sparser and smaller near the upper part. the first pic is of a green baileyana, the second (with tall grass and weeds) is of a blue baileyana.

Finally, hospita. On this Cop, there are very numerous and closely spaced spines all up and down the petiole. Hospita is a smaller, chunkier plant.

 

 

 

My guess on the palm in question is Copernicia baileyana.

 

[Gbarce]

Mike- can you share photos of the palms as a whole?

 

[Merlyn]

I wrote on my spreadsheet (yes, I have every planting and seedling logged...because OCD) that Baileyana has black teeth and Fallaensis has teeth the same color as the stem.  I'm not certain this is correct, but I got this info from here on PalmTalk at some point.  I have a small one in ground of each, but they are too small to have significant teeth yet.

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, mike in kurtistown said:

Hospita is a smaller, chunkier plant.

Most of the photos of C hospita I have seen show it to be smaller in girth as well as overall size compared to either baileyana or C fallanesis.  My personal experience is only with C x Textilis (i.e. baileyana x hospita).  My  C x Textilis are smaller than true pure baileyana though, which would support the hospita being smaller.  I like your comparisons of the teeth color and spacing, but am puzzled by the size chunkier based on what I have seen and Matt's experience with hospita.  I think it will be helpful to see teeth on some other fallanesis to compare with the plant in question.

[sonoranfans]

When I got my C fallaensis in 2011 it was 9-10' overall very stretched looking palm grown in shade.  The peitioles were long and the leaves were smallish.  Planted in full sun the petioles are now of similar length a bit longer but much(2-3x) thicker and the leaves are ~6' from hastula to leaf tip.  The black teeth are part of the baileyana with fallaensis having smaller teeth the same color of the petiole.  Hospita are notably smaller than bailey and bailey is smaller than fallaensis.  Hospita tend to be bluish, waxy most of the time with a thin trunk (5-8" sans leaf bases).  My fallaensis came shade grown a light green color, lighter than any of these.  The fallaesis turned much more silver in the sun.  Here is the palm shade grown as planted and after 9 years in the ground in full sun just about all day.  Not the changes in color and leaf size, the smooth trunk is ~27" i diameter +/- 1inch(?).  For a first few years I was thinking it might be something else, but it seems to be a fallaense given leaf width vs length ratio, small green thorns on the petiole.  I think the morphology of these palms can change some in shade or climates that are very different from the carribean origins.  The third pic shows my bailey with the fallaense.  the way the light hits these, early day late day etc seems to (somewhat) change the color that is viewed.

[Matt in SD]

At the size of the palm in the first post, my Baileana had more full, rounded leaves, while my hospita still has wedges. I have some smaller faellensis and the leaves on those are already more full/round than my much larger hospita.  Spines on my hospita look the same as the palm in first photo.   

 

Matt

[Caribbean Palms]

Here are some of my Cop. fallaensis, about 4 years from seed...grown in full S. Florida sun...

Hummmm, maybe??? 

[Gbarce]

5 hours ago, Caribbean Palms said:

Here are some of my Cop. fallaensis, about 4 years from seed...grown in full S. Florida sun...

Hummmm, maybe??? 

Yeah that's what I remember my C. Fallaensis looked like when I planted mine in the ground years ago.  The plant being offered to my friend just looks to "skinny" in all of it's features.

The plant in question is suppose to be 7 years old already - but the color doesn't seem right, the petioles are too long and thin and leaf segments (?) seem too be too slender to be a C. fallaensis.

[Gbarce]

 

I also think the leaf bases is too narrow.  Even at this size there should be more of an over lap with the leaf bases already, right?

 

It also looks like this palm is already starting to grow upwards/forming a trunk -- which makes me think that it might be one of the smaller Copernicias like maybe C. prunifera

[JubaeaMan138]

My vote is hospita 

[mike in kurtistown]

Gene asked for full-palm shots of the Copernicias for which I earlier showed the petiole spines. Here they are with 5-gal bucket for scale. First is baileyana (green form), with a rather sparse set of leaves. Second is the blue form of baileyana (which has done well for me). Third up is fallaensis and last is hospita. The fallaensis and hospita are the smallest of the four of each that I have planted. I wished to get as close in size to Gene's plant as I could.

[Gbarce]

12 hours ago, mike in kurtistown said:

Gene asked for full-palm shots of the Copernicias for which I earlier showed the petiole spines. Here they are with 5-gal bucket for scale. First is baileyana (green form), with a rather sparse set of leaves. Second is the blue form of baileyana (which has done well for me). Third up is fallaensis and last is hospita. The fallaensis and hospita are the smallest of the four of each that I have planted. I wished to get as close in size to Gene's plant as I could.

Thanks Mike !  these photos are a good illustration of the different species. 

I still think that the plant in question isn't any of these larger sized species.  

* The blue C. baileyana is stunning!

[Caribbean Palms]

Possibly Copernicia berterona....

[aztropic]

Thinking the same thing.

C. berteroana. Frond just doesn't seem to have the thickness/stiffness of a fallaensis.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[mike in kurtistown]

OK, here's Copernicia berteroana, the smallest of the three I have planted, first the entire plant, then a closeup of the petiole spines, which seem to be pretty much along the entire length of the petiole and mean. From seeds collected in a stand of the species in habitat in the Domincan Republic, so there is no doubt about the ID.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by mike in kurtistown
left out the last info line