Best fertilizer for sandy soil????

[Sean.N.GulfBreeze]

I live in the Florida panhandle and my soil is sandy.  I'm currently using PalmGain every 6 weeks and the palms look amazing!!!  But, I've heard that a quick release fertilizer isn't very efficient in sandy soil.  So, I ask you, what are you using in your sandy soil?  How often?  

[D Palm]

I have been using the spikes, they seem to last about 4-8 months. 

[D. Morrowii]

I think Palmgain is slow release? At least the nitrogen part is. Thats what Ive been using in central FL. I know Florikan brand is a favorite among some of the more experienced palm people. Like you Im seeing good results with PG but I might try Florikan next spring. 

[Scott W]

I just use the Sunniland Palm fertilizer for my in ground palms here in Jacksonville.

[sonoranfans]

PG is a controlled release fertilizer.  Its diffusion(osmotic) based so it will last in the soil for its 3 months.  So is florikan, but florikan has a couple patents on the membrane sizing for different micros for different release rates of micros.  This might be why PG recommends 3 month intervals for PG, 180 days for florikan.  Potassium is the first to be depleted in slow release and in osmotic with fixed membrane size.  Since the two cost the same and I can get both, I go with florikan.  But palm gain is in principle, a better fertilizer for low cation exchange(sandy) high drainage soils than all those big box store competitors.  I have been using the florikan for almost 9 years with great results, so there is no motivation to change to anything else.  I also like the longer release period of 180 days as it should be a little easier to keep the potassium delivery up.  If I could not get florikan, I would use palm gain for sandy soil.  Clay soils with all that cation exchange capacity can work very well with slow release spikes, etc.  But no spike fertilizer I know of is going to deliver all important micros over time as consistently as an osmotic membrane.  I have used florikan and left my garden unattended for 6 months at a time when i was working out west, pretty amazing that in my high drainage sandy soil things worked out so well(automatic irrigation 2x a week).  On spikes, IN principle, I dont like them as the concentrations of fertilizer will always be highest close to the spike and lowest away from it.  You depend on capillary action carrying nutrients sideways for most of the root zone.   When palms get large there is a big root zone, so its really larger root zones that are at issue. with spikes.  But if you want your roots to grow large, nutrients should be in that soil yet to be rooted, to ,make them reach for it.  When I was out west in clay soil, I just used vigoro broadcast and lesco slow release prills and spread them around to get uniform fertilizer delivery in the root zone.  Florikan I have found works best in sandy soil and in pots.  I expect that PG is similar in those benefits.

[sonoranfans]

to be precisely correct, both florikan and PG have some fast release, but most of the delivery is controlled.

[sonoranfans]

K and Mg need to be controlled release in order for IFAS to consider it a good palm fertilizer.  http://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/miamidadeco/2018/05/21/selecting-good-fertilizers-for-palms/

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

I use Sunniland Palm Fertilizer  40Lb bag from Lowes.  Never a problem with my palms.  Even got rid of some frizzle top on my Coccos Nucifera and Archontophoenix alexandrae few years back.  That's really only thing available by me.  Plus we are in a fertilizer ban from June through October.   I am complete sand here in Pinellas County.  With these tropical down pours I have been getting lately the fertilizer would wash right through to the aquifer.  I usually fertilize as soon as the ban is lifted and my palms seem happy all year.  

[sonoranfans]

12 hours ago, 3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico said:

I use Sunniland Palm Fertilizer  40Lb bag from Lowes.  Never a problem with my palms.  Even got rid of some frizzle top on my Coccos Nucifera and Archontophoenix alexandrae few years back.  That's really only thing available by me.  Plus we are in a fertilizer ban from June through October.   I am complete sand here in Pinellas County.  With these tropical down pours I have been getting lately the fertilizer would wash right through to the aquifer.  I usually fertilize as soon as the ban is lifted and my palms seem happy all year.  

Welcome to palmtalk Craig!  If you told me your queens had frizzletop, I would blame the palm for being too piggish of micros.  But Cocos and A. Alexandre I have never even seen with frizzletop, they tend to be relatively easy to keep happy(though cocos yellow over winter).  You have obviously had some issues with Mn with that frizzletop which indicates a longer term deficiency.  Especially relevant to your) fertilizer ban  situation is that with a 180 day controlled release like florikan you put down in mid late may and it delivers through October or november.  I also have that same fertilizer ban in manatee.   In  effect, the controlled release of florikan permits a continuous delivery of micronutrients.  Controlled delivery is also much better environmentally as it doesnt get washed into the watershed during heavy summer rains.  Its diffusion controlled delivery is the way to have sufficient but not excessive fertilizer in the soil.  I used sunniland a few times, couldnt keep the K deficiency in check on my copernicias and kentiopsis O. which are demanding of K.  I have (3) alexandre at 25'+, never had a nutrient deficiency issue while other palms like the copernicia and kentiopsis O. exhibited deficiencies.  So yes for some palms demand micronutrient deficiencies more than others.   Welcome again to palmtalk!

[D Palm]

During the heavy rain season my yard turns into a flooding creek and washes away everything. That is the main reason I use spikes in my super all sandy soil over other methods & products from July -October. I use granular fertilizer in March, it’s usually gone by June, then spike it up for remainder of year.

[Gonzer]

On 7/30/2021 at 6:26 AM, sonoranfans said:

PG is a controlled release fertilizer.  Its diffusion(osmotic) based so it will last in the soil for its 3 months.  So is florikan, but florikan has a couple patents on the membrane sizing for different micros for different release rates of micros.  This might be why PG recommends 3 month intervals for PG, 180 days for florikan.  Potassium is the first to be depleted in slow release and in osmotic with fixed membrane size.  Since the two cost the same and I can get both, I go with florikan.  But palm gain is in principle, a better fertilizer for low cation exchange(sandy) high drainage soils than all those big box store competitors.  I have been using the florikan for almost 9 years with great results, so there is no motivation to change to anything else.  I also like the longer release period of 180 days as it should be a little easier to keep the potassium delivery up.  If I could not get florikan, I would use palm gain for sandy soil.  Clay soils with all that cation exchange capacity can work very well with slow release spikes, etc.  But no spike fertilizer I know of is going to deliver all important micros over time as consistently as an osmotic membrane.  I have used florikan and left my garden unattended for 6 months at a time when i was working out west, pretty amazing that in my high drainage sandy soil things worked out so well(automatic irrigation 2x a week).  On spikes, IN principle, I dont like them as the concentrations of fertilizer will always be highest close to the spike and lowest away from it.  You depend on capillary action carrying nutrients sideways for most of the root zone.   When palms get large there is a big root zone, so its really larger root zones that are at issue. with spikes.  But if you want your roots to grow large, nutrients should be in that soil yet to be rooted, to ,make them reach for it.  When I was out west in clay soil, I just used vigoro broadcast and lesco slow release prills and spread them around to get uniform fertilizer delivery in the root zone.  Florikan I have found works best in sandy soil and in pots.  I expect that PG is similar in those benefits.

Not to patronize you Nathan but is there ANY horticultural knowledge you're not familiar with? I say this in a reverent way. You continually amaze me. 

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

 

12 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Welcome to palmtalk Craig!  If you told me your queens had frizzletop, I would blame the palm for being too piggish of micros.  But Cocos and A. Alexandre I have never even seen with frizzletop, they tend to be relatively easy to keep happy(though cocos yellow over winter).  You have obviously had some issues with Mn with that frizzletop which indicates a longer term deficiency.  Especially relevant to your) fertilizer ban  situation is that with a 180 day controlled release like florikan you put down in mid late may and it delivers through October or november.  I also have that same fertilizer ban in manatee.   In  effect, the controlled release of florikan permits a continuous delivery of micronutrients.  Controlled delivery is also much better environmentally as it doesnt get washed into the watershed during heavy summer rains.  Its diffusion controlled delivery is the way to have sufficient but not excessive fertilizer in the soil.  I used sunniland a few times, couldnt keep the K deficiency in check on my copernicias and kentiopsis O. which are demanding of K.  I have (3) alexandre at 25'+, never had a nutrient deficiency issue while other palms like the copernicia and kentiopsis O. exhibited deficiencies.  So yes for some palms demand micronutrient deficiencies more than others.   Welcome again to palmtalk!

Thanks for the info.  Where can I buy Florikan in this area.  I usually am just a Lowes or Home Depot guy.  Here is a picture of A. Alexander  with I think was frizzle top.  It was corrected using Sunniland  and now they are approximately 20-25 feet tall  and 10 years old.  I thought my coconut had the same thing.  Here it is 16 years later.  All my palms are under well irrigation with some newer palms having drip irrigation.  The well is 40 feet deep and I have never tested the water.  Probably should.  It stains my pool deck and driveway rust so I'm thinking it has a lot of iron.  The water is 68 degrees out of the hose spigot.  I water three times a week 30 minutes a zone.  The system starts at sunrise and all foliage dries quickly by mid morning.  I always have a light sea breeze from the  Gulf of Mexico to dry the lower palm fronds.  My chambeyronia macrocarpa loves the cool water drip irrigation. She get a bonus watering since being in the blazing sun all day.     It gets 4 times a week  for 20 minutes in the morning.  It is now emerald green.  

7EC50CD3-A51E-4F4E-81C4-6C87753A21B0.heic D1504134-F55D-4A01-B944-C6508B634579.heic 5BD65429-5FA3-47EB-8A43-3325267E3153.heic 96973D44-A67E-418D-B84F-22AE018E1E9D.heic A952146B-A4F1-4ECD-80E1-D839DEDB87C0.heic 070B29FB-7ACD-4F9A-9607-9CCF338C5273.heic 50FB17E2-19B7-4BF6-BDF6-423A226DE074.heic 9F5C0885-F0D2-4C3E-8AEF-349F1575D999.heic

Edited August 1, 2021 by 3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico

[D. Morrowii]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:58 AM, sonoranfans said:

K and Mg need to be controlled release in order for IFAS to consider it a good palm fertilizer.  http://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/miamidadeco/2018/05/21/selecting-good-fertilizers-for-palms/

Thanks for this @sonoranfans 

Palmgain doesn't exactly match A, B or C but both Mg and K are water soluble from what I see on the label. So not a good fertilizer for sandy water adjacent Florida  per IFAS. Any idea what brand A might be?

Looking at a jar of Osmocote I have here and it says all the main ingredients are poly coated, its 15-9-12 though for veggies and flowers per label 

[D Palm]

Walmart had a huge sale on Sunniland granulars. Got all of this right under $50. Stocked my shelves!

[sonoranfans]

10 hours ago, D. Morrowii said:

Thanks for this @sonoranfans 

Palmgain doesn't exactly match A, B or C but both Mg and K are water soluble from what I see on the label. So not a good fertilizer for sandy water adjacent Florida  per IFAS. Any idea what brand A might be?

Looking at a jar of Osmocote I have here and it says all the main ingredients are poly coated, its 15-9-12 though for veggies and flowers per label 

I had read the reason that IFAS recommended it was it was entirely controlled release for K, Mg.  Palmgain is difficult to find technical information on, and I am wondering if there different release specs.   They do basically copy the florikan nutrient contents(8-2-12 Fe 2.7, Mg ~4) that I have been using for 8 years.  IFAS was the source of a nutrient time release field study (12-15 years ago) that concluded Florikan delivered all micros over 5-6 months while others were inconsistent and lacking in long term delivery of K, Mg.  Finding that study on the web today is near impossible, all your searches are contaminated with google pimping advertizing.

[sonoranfans]

11 hours ago, 3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico said:

 

Thanks for the info.  Where can I buy Florikan in this area.  I usually am just a Lowes or Home Depot guy.  Here is a picture of A. Alexander  with I think was frizzle top.  It was corrected using Sunniland  and now they are approximately 20-25 feet tall  and 10 years old.  I thought my coconut had the same thing.  Here it is 16 years later.  All my palms are under well irrigation with some newer palms having drip irrigation.  The well is 40 feet deep and I have never tested the water.  Probably should.  It stains my pool deck and driveway rust so I'm thinking it has a lot of iron.  The water is 68 degrees out of the hose spigot.  I water three times a week 30 minutes a zone.  The system starts at sunrise and all foliage dries quickly by mid morning.  I always have a light sea breeze from the  Gulf of Mexico to dry the lower palm fronds.  My chambeyronia macrocarpa loves the cool water drip irrigation. She get a bonus watering since being in the blazing sun all day.     It gets 4 times a week  for 20 minutes in the morning.  It is now emerald green.  

7EC50CD3-A51E-4F4E-81C4-6C87753A21B0.heic 2.35 MB · 5 downloads D1504134-F55D-4A01-B944-C6508B634579.heic 2.63 MB · 0 downloads 5BD65429-5FA3-47EB-8A43-3325267E3153.heic 2.56 MB · 0 downloads 96973D44-A67E-418D-B84F-22AE018E1E9D.heic 1.8 MB · 1 download A952146B-A4F1-4ECD-80E1-D839DEDB87C0.heic 1.96 MB · 0 downloads 070B29FB-7ACD-4F9A-9607-9CCF338C5273.heic 742.43 kB · 2 downloads 50FB17E2-19B7-4BF6-BDF6-423A226DE074.heic 1.85 MB · 1 download 9F5C0885-F0D2-4C3E-8AEF-349F1575D999.heic 2.04 MB · 1 download

I buy my florikan here:  Big earth landscape supply    1010 10th St E, Palmetto, FL 34221

Yes those archie leaves look strange with the rippling in them, not sure what that is.   I thought frizzletop new growth was chlorotic, like my old queens in AZ.   I have not had a boron deficiency but they are possible here:  

Boron is known for distorting and shrinking leaves without them being chlorotic.  I have seen plants that have rippled leaves like that and it was a virus.  I hope that isnt it.  I would start a thread on "what kind of deficiency is this?" and see if you can find someone who has observed the problem you show. 

 

[sonoranfans]

Ok palm gain appears to have polymer coated urea for slow release nitrogen and sulfur coated(15% total sulfur) prills for other micros.  Their website throws an error but other 3rd party information says its what I described above. Once that sulfur coating dissolves, the micros will be washed away.  Its a little like lesco it would seem, though lesco did not have that good palm micronutrient profile.  How that coating goes on(evenly) may have a significant impact on longevity of the fertilizer.  So Palm Gain is not 100% controlled release in K, Mg, its slow release i those and other micros.  That is why they know its gone in a few months, reapply.  It does have the right nutrient profile and a lot of people on here like it.  As long as you are out there every 6 weeks in sandy soil spreading it evenly around I guess its OK.  The sulfur may dissolve faster in the rainy season, unlike a polymer coating.

[redant]

I mostly use horse manure and some lesco palm fert. The manure builds the soil while granular fert does nothing for it.

[D. Morrowii]

I wish someone carried Florikan over here on the East coast of Florida. I live on the banana river so nutrient liading in the canals is an issue here. 

[Looking Glass]

I use Palmgain, which the palms seem to love, and I have Sunniland which I use for the regular palms and plants that are bulletproof for my area, as they do well either way.  For me, the shipping on Florikan is more than the actual fertilizer, making it super expensive.  Treesaver was cheaper shipping, so I’m trying that for the rainy season this year.  I also supplement with 60% potash intermittently for the palms prone to K deficiency.  I’ve found that magnesium seems to trigger an almost instantaneous K deficiency in certain palms in my soil, so I’m avoiding trying to balance that this year.  

[Barry]

Two questions, what formula do you use for Florikan ? I have been using the TOTAL 18-6-8 180 days. Is this the best for the palms?

I am hearing Florikan  is hard to find, I just got a bag of 100 day, couldn’t get the 180 day.

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

11 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I buy my florikan here:  Big earth landscape supply    1010 10th St E, Palmetto, FL 34221

Yes those archie leaves look strange with the rippling in them, not sure what that is.   I thought frizzletop new growth was chlorotic, like my old queens in AZ.   I have not had a boron deficiency but they are possible here:  

Boron is known for distorting and shrinking leaves without them being chlorotic.  I have seen plants that have rippled leaves like that and it was a virus.  I hope that isnt it.  I would start a thread on "what kind of deficiency is this?" and see if you can find someone who has observed the problem you show. 

 

Thanks,  I'll stop by Big earth supply next time I'm down that way.  I just posted the rippled leaves on a new thread.  Maybe someone can identify this odd looking leaf.  

[Steve Mac]

The question being (roughly) what to put in sandy soil to improve it for plant growth, I can't believe that I haven't heard yet, put in compost, lawn clipping, organics etc?

Is throwing fertilizer in sand to be immediately leached away the beat way to go? 

[sonoranfans]

4 hours ago, Steve Mac said:

The question being (roughly) what to put in sandy soil to improve it for plant growth, I can't believe that I haven't heard yet, put in compost, lawn clipping, organics etc?

Is throwing fertilizer in sand to be immediately leached away the beat way to go? 

Ideally you amend in the planting step and then mulch periodically.  Mulching is a longer term solution, sand has no cation exchange so always needs to be amended using mulch.   But the polymer prills are effective as a storage of nutrients that cannot be washed away while you get your soil into shape.   The first thing I do when I note  deficiency is not the longer term solution of mulching as some deficiencies will kill the plant before you can effectively amend the soil.  And no, florikan does not wash away, that is why it is so effective.  The prills are all over my backyard which gets flooded 8-10 times a summer.  we got 11" in one day in july and its still there, lots of the multicolored prills.  The release of nutrients is osmotic, through a decomposable polymer membrane(~2yrs t decompose) so it will not dissolve, just a slow leak of nutrients that is membrane limited and responds to the differential of concentration between nutrients in the prill and in the wet soil(which drives osmosis).  If there are lots of nutrients in the soil, the membrane nutrient flow is low, but it is faster if the nutrients are relatively low or not present on the other side of the membrane(in the soil).   

[Looking Glass]

9 hours ago, Steve Mac said:

The question being (roughly) what to put in sandy soil to improve it for plant growth, I can't believe that I haven't heard yet, put in compost, lawn clipping, organics etc?

Is throwing fertilizer in sand to be immediately leached away the beat way to go? 

When you’re starting with Florida sand, the adding of organics is super important, but I feel like it’s a lifetime project to get the soil built up a bit.   
 

(random Fl photo)….

Great point though.  

I think the last two owners did their part at my place, and I dump manure, peat, and mulch by the pickup truckload and slowly make progress.  That sand is nice when you get 12 inches of rain overnight though.  

[Cape Garrett]

I use Sunniland palm fertilizer from Lowe's.   In ground and potted palms.  1x per year.  Works like a charm.

[dmc]

Mulch!