Encephalartos lehmannii ID confirmation - Help!

[tank]

So I’ve started trying to Id some of the unknown cycads at my new house and I was told that this plant was E. Lehmannii.  It is growing in moderate shade in an irrigated bed.

any help confirming this or other ideas on its Id would be appreciated.  I can get additional pics if needed.

The white spots are not scale.  I think it’s some sort of lichen.  It’s on most of the evergreen leaves in the yard.

[Merlyn]

I would not think pure Lehmannii to begin with, the leaf shape is a bit broad and has a lot of prickles.  It does look a lot like an Altensteinii x Lehmannii that I have in the back yard.

If the newest set of leaves are less thorny, then it could just be a somewhat immature Lehmannii with stretched out leaves/fronds due to the shade.  My Alt x Lehmannii was very thorny for the first few sets of leaves, but the newest generally have 1 big thorn per leaflet.

[tank]

Here is a photo of the caudex 

 

[tank]

53 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

I would not think pure Lehmannii to begin with, the leaf shape is a bit broad and has a lot of prickles.  It does look a lot like an Altensteinii x Lehmannii that I have in the back yard.

If the newest set of leaves are less thorny, then it could just be a somewhat immature Lehmannii with stretched out leaves/fronds due to the shade.  My Alt x Lehmannii was very thorny for the first few sets of leaves, but the newest generally have 1 big thorn per leaflet.

Thanks,

I have very limited experience with Encephalartos as a genus.

[Merlyn]

Lehmannii has a distinctive collar around the base of the fronds.  It is typically a cream/orange band around each one, though less orange with the "Kirkwood" form.  I don't see that collar in the current or old leaf bases.  Here's a good Lehmannii overview, you can see the collars in photos part way down:

https://www.botanicwonders.com/Feature-Encephalartos-lehmannii.html

[Tracy]

6 hours ago, tank said:

 I was told that this plant was E. Lehmannii.  It is growing in moderate shade in an irrigated bed.

any help confirming this or other ideas on its Id would be appreciated.

5 hours ago, tank said:

Here is a photo of the caudex 

 

Definitely not Encephalartos lehmannii.  Leaflets too wide, leaf structure is less upright than a typical lehmannii and at that age, you wouldn't expect to see as many spines on the leaflet margins.  I doubt that a lehmanii would do very well in an irrigated bed with partial shade either.  My first thought on seeing the leaflets was a form of E natalensis, but seeing the leaflets aren't reduced to prickles makes me rethink that.  Leaves are a little wider than E lebomboensis too, and petiole bases are longer than lebomboensis.  Color can be deceptive if you are growing in a wet climate, but E lehmanii in sun will be a shade of silver grey to blue.  Hybrid... perhaps, but definitely not E lehmanii (E lehmanii with erect leaves, silver color, orange colars and narrow leaves pictured below). 

[Merlyn]

27 minutes ago, Tracy said:

My first thought on seeing the leaflets was a form of E natalensis, but seeing the leaflets aren't reduced to prickles makes me rethink that.  Leaves are a little wider than E lebomboensis too, and petiole bases are longer than lebomboensis. 

What about Altensteinii?  The leaflets abruptly stop on Alt, instead of reducing to prickles like Natalensis. 

 

[Tracy]

9 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

What about Altensteinii?  The leaflets abruptly stop on Alt, instead of reducing to prickles like Natalensis.

While that matches up, my experience with Encephalartos altenstenii is they normally have narrower leaves than the one in question.  Your example reinforces a narrower leaflet for E altenstenii, which is also true of E lebomboensis.  Hybrid?  Maybe E altenstenii x natalensis?  Both are pretty common.  Maybe there are some forms of E altenstenii that have a little wider leaf and retain more spines as they get larger, but even this relatively small one at a 5"-6" caudex has lost most of it's spines unlike the plant in question.

[tank]

Here is a photo taken from the Jungle Music info page on variations of Cycad appearance based on environmental conditions.

This is of a E. lehmannii grown in a greenhouse.

https://www.junglemusic.net/Blue_Cycad/Blue_Cycads.html

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, tank said:

Here is a photo taken from the Jungle Music info page on variations of Cycad appearance based on environmental conditions.

This is of a E. lehmannii grown in a greenhouse.

https://www.junglemusic.net/Blue_Cycad/Blue_Cycads.html

Yep, notice the lack of prickles on the leaves, and the orange bands around the base of the fronds.  My only Lehmannii is a "Kirkwood form" but it is only about 3 inches caudex.  The leaflets are definitely Lehmannii shape and size, but still have about 3 or 4 thorns per leaflet.

[Tracy]

6 hours ago, tank said:

Jungle Music info page on variations of Cycad appearance based on environmental conditions.

This is of a E. lehmannii grown in a greenhouse.

I hate to be a downer, but I wouldn't buy that plant from Phil & Jesse unless they gave me a real deal on it because it's not a very good representation of the species.  With the crown as spread out as it is, my guess was that it was growing underneath some adjacent plants in the greenhouse that kept the flush from emerging more upright.  I'm pretty familiar with their greenhouse as I stop in periodically when out walking my dog in the neighborhood to visit with them.  The Jungle Music plant still has the prominent  or "conspicuous" ring collars with the red brown coloring on them.  Leaflet width to length ration is wider than on your plant in question. as well imo.  They do have some much nicer looking specimens of this species too.

Yes, sometimes leaflets will have prickles on the lower margin, but I haven't seen the leaflet widen at they still remain a narrow leaflet.  Once the plant gets to a certain size, the occurrence of the prickles becomes less (Merlyn yours will definitely change over time), and they become more subtle and less pronounced.   The blue color from the waxy surface coating goes away in environments when both shade and wet are combined, so we can concede that wouldn't be an indicator in your climate of species.  Below are a few more examples of what E lehmanii should look like.  The last photo of the in ground specimen has a little less upright habit to the leaves, but its primarily because there are multiple pups growing off the base at angles.  The in ground specimen is growing in a shaded spot in my cousin's garden in Vista, CA but still retains great color, along with the E princeps growing to it's left on the edge of that photo.  I point that out, because shade alone won't always be enough to cause this species to lose it's waxy silver/blue leaf coloring.

Other than the bare petioles where they attach to the caudex on your plant, I just don't see a lot of clues screaming "I'm an Encephalartos lehmanii". 

[tank]

4 hours ago, Tracy said:

I hate to be a downer, but I wouldn't buy that plant from Phil & Jesse unless they gave me a real deal on it because it's not a very good representation of the species.  With the crown as spread out as it is, my guess was that it was growing underneath some adjacent plants in the greenhouse that kept the flush from emerging more upright.  I'm pretty familiar with their greenhouse as I stop in periodically when out walking my dog in the neighborhood to visit with them.  The Jungle Music plant still has the prominent  or "conspicuous" ring collars with the red brown coloring on them.  Leaflet width to length ration is wider than on your plant in question. as well imo.  They do have some much nicer looking specimens of this species too.

Yes, sometimes leaflets will have prickles on the lower margin, but I haven't seen the leaflet widen at they still remain a narrow leaflet.  Once the plant gets to a certain size, the occurrence of the prickles becomes less (Merlyn yours will definitely change over time), and they become more subtle and less pronounced.   The blue color from the waxy surface coating goes away in environments when both shade and wet are combined, so we can concede that wouldn't be an indicator in your climate of species.  Below are a few more examples of what E lehmanii should look like.  The last photo of the in ground specimen has a little less upright habit to the leaves, but its primarily because there are multiple pups growing off the base at angles.  The in ground specimen is growing in a shaded spot in my cousin's garden in Vista, CA but still retains great color, along with the E princeps growing to it's left on the edge of that photo.  I point that out, because shade alone won't always be enough to cause this species to lose it's waxy silver/blue leaf coloring.

Other than the bare petioles where they attach to the caudex on your plant, I just don't see a lot of clues screaming "I'm an Encephalartos lehmanii". 

Thanks!  I might move this plant to sunnier, more exposed spot to see if it shows any more indicative traits.  Probably too wet here in general to hope that it will blue up if it is a “blue “ encephalarto:s.

[Merlyn]

23 hours ago, Tracy said:

Yes, sometimes leaflets will have prickles on the lower margin, but I haven't seen the leaflet widen at they still remain a narrow leaflet.  Once the plant gets to a certain size, the occurrence of the prickles becomes less (Merlyn yours will definitely change over time), and they become more subtle and less pronounced.   The blue color from the waxy surface coating goes away in environments when both shade and wet are combined, so we can concede that wouldn't be an indicator in your climate of species. 

I've noticed the blue color being "kinda there" on known blue species.  Tom Broome at CycadJungle had a really nice "True Blue" Arenarius when I was down there the last time.  He had it in an open-sided greenhouse to protect it (and several other blues) from overhead rain.  They looked great, roughly speaking just as blue as photos from CA.  He said that if they were outdoors and unprotected, after a couple of weeks of daily afternoon thunderstorms the blue wax was mostly gone, and would not grow back on an existing flush.  I interpreted that to mean that the waxy coating grows during the flush, and doesn't re-grow if it is lost due to rain or being physically scraped off.  That's been my experience here, too.  Sclavoi, Trispinosus, Horridus, and Arenarius are all "slightly bluish" but definitely not blue.

Initially I didn't realize that young Encephalartos were very spiny, it wasn't until I was trying to ID some 2-3" caudex plants that I discovered this.  I have a couple that I swear looked like Ferox leaflets, and then the next flush came out with half the thorns.  Kisambo is one of those, with super-thorny young leaflets and then only 3-4 thorns on mature leaves.  Odd, but it makes sense to keep predators from munching on the seedlings!

[ExperimentalGrower]

On 8/24/2021 at 4:12 PM, Tracy said:

Definitely not Encephalartos lehmannii.  Leaflets too wide, leaf structure is less upright than a typical lehmannii and at that age, you wouldn't expect to see as many spines on the leaflet margins.  I doubt that a lehmanii would do very well in an irrigated bed with partial shade either.  My first thought on seeing the leaflets was a form of E natalensis, but seeing the leaflets aren't reduced to prickles makes me rethink that.  Leaves are a little wider than E lebomboensis too, and petiole bases are longer than lebomboensis.  Color can be deceptive if you are growing in a wet climate, but E lehmanii in sun will be a shade of silver grey to blue.  Hybrid... perhaps, but definitely not E lehmanii (E lehmanii with erect leaves, silver color, orange colars and narrow leaves pictured below). 

Killer lehmanii and that longifolius behind it. Perfection.

[ExperimentalGrower]

On 8/25/2021 at 2:24 PM, Tracy said:

I hate to be a downer, but I wouldn't buy that plant from Phil & Jesse unless they gave me a real deal on it because it's not a very good representation of the species.  With the crown as spread out as it is, my guess was that it was growing underneath some adjacent plants in the greenhouse that kept the flush from emerging more upright.  I'm pretty familiar with their greenhouse as I stop in periodically when out walking my dog in the neighborhood to visit with them.  The Jungle Music plant still has the prominent  or "conspicuous" ring collars with the red brown coloring on them.  Leaflet width to length ration is wider than on your plant in question. as well imo.  They do have some much nicer looking specimens of this species too.

Yes, sometimes leaflets will have prickles on the lower margin, but I haven't seen the leaflet widen at they still remain a narrow leaflet.  Once the plant gets to a certain size, the occurrence of the prickles becomes less (Merlyn yours will definitely change over time), and they become more subtle and less pronounced.   The blue color from the waxy surface coating goes away in environments when both shade and wet are combined, so we can concede that wouldn't be an indicator in your climate of species.  Below are a few more examples of what E lehmanii should look like.  The last photo of the in ground specimen has a little less upright habit to the leaves, but its primarily because there are multiple pups growing off the base at angles.  The in ground specimen is growing in a shaded spot in my cousin's garden in Vista, CA but still retains great color, along with the E princeps growing to it's left on the edge of that photo.  I point that out, because shade alone won't always be enough to cause this species to lose it's waxy silver/blue leaf coloring.

Other than the bare petioles where they attach to the caudex on your plant, I just don't see a lot of clues screaming "I'm an Encephalartos lehmanii". 

Wow so they can actually take part shade from the sound of it and remain well colored. And in coastal sun in Vista? Gives me hope about one I have positioned that will eventually get more shade.

Flushing less regular with more shade?

[Tracy]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:54 PM, ExperimentalGrower said:

Wow so they can actually take part shade from the sound of it and remain well colored. And in coastal sun in Vista? Gives me hope about one I have positioned that will eventually get more shade.

Flushing less regular with more shade?

Vista gets hot in the summer, much hotter than right on the coast.  There is actually quite a variance in temps between coastal portions of the adjacent cities and their inland portions (Oceanside, Carlsbad).  Yes, it does flush on a regular basis in Vista even in some shade.