Flowering queen palms in southern Ontario??

[Rickybobby]

Well kinda. If anyone knows ontario they know port dover located on Lake Erie. Many shops and restaurants now import palms in this nautical town. But the big hit is callahans resteraunt on the beach and there massive queen palms. Syagrus romanzoffiana along the beach and put into the sand. Well a few are in flower and one even has seeds

i believe these palms come from Norfolk exotics 

[Dartolution]

That is the strangest sight to see... and I bet that water is ice cold isn't it? 

[UK_Palms]

Do they dig them up and bring them inside come mid October, only to move them back outside in say mid May? Or do they just treat them as summer bedding, letting them die back and then replacing them again the following spring? If so that would be pretty costly. I see the average low in January for Port Dover is a bone chilling 15F and the average high is 28F. It looks like they go down to 0F a couple of times each year as well. The record low there in Port Dover is a brutal -28F as well. That's colder than the entire UK's record all time low... 

Still, I respect their efforts to bring a bit of the tropics to southern Canada! 

[PalmatierMeg]

Why in the world do they hurricane cut them in Canada? They need full crowns of fronds

[Chester B]

I can attest that these palms do get dug out in fall and stored in a greenhouse. This is becoming more common in Ontario.  I know in Dover they’ve been doing this a long time.  
 

As far as water temps, Lake Erie is very shallow you can often walk a hundred feet out and only be waist high. Water temps in summer can be mid 80s. Not to offend anyone but the beaches on Lake Erie are superior to any Ocean. No salt and no sharks, never mind dangerous riptides. 
 

For those that are interested looks up Port Dover and Friday the 13th. It’s a big deal.

@Rickybobby.FYI I have seen homes on Lakeshore in Burlington with Majesties year round in pots on their front entrances.  Believe it or not. I think you know the types of homes I’m talking about. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Chester B

[Valhallalla]

One thing that is clear to me by these photos. Whether they are grown in Florida, California or Canada, queen palms almost always look like crap or at least could look much better. With well over two thousand species to choose I'll never understand the fascination with growing (or attempting to grow) this particular palm.

If the idea is to emulate the tropics and the plants will be brought indoors when the temperature drops, why not grow something that looks decent and actually belongs on a tropical beach like coconuts? Nothing symbolizes the tropics better than coconut palms. Even those Adonidias on the Jersey shore look much better than these queens and more tropical as well.

As far as oceans vs lakes, it is exactly the salt, sea life and currents that make ocean water preferable in my view. And while people do surf on the Great Lakes, it is generally done in the winter with ice chunks in the water and icicles hanging from surfers' faces. No thanks.

[Chester B]

3 hours ago, Valhallalla said:

As far as oceans vs lakes, it is exactly the salt, sea life and currents that make ocean water preferable in my view. And while people do surf on the Great Lakes, it is generally done in the winter with ice chunks in the water and icicles hanging from surfers' faces. No thanks.

I've seen them do it, it looks beyond frigid.  Crazy people.

I think they might use the queens because they're cheap and grow fast.

[redant]

You all are desperate for the tropics lol, they look like poo.

[Rickybobby]

17 hours ago, Dartolution said:

That is the strangest sight to see... and I bet that water is ice cold isn't it? 

Water is 77 air is 88

[Rickybobby]

16 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Why in the world do they hurricane cut them in Canada? They need full crowns of fronds

This is how they arrive from Florida 

[Rickybobby]

15 hours ago, Chester B said:

I can attest that these palms do get dug out in fall and stored in a greenhouse. This is becoming more common in Ontario.  I know in Dover they’ve been doing this a long time.  
 

As far as water temps, Lake Erie is very shallow you can often walk a hundred feet out and only be waist high. Water temps in summer can be mid 80s. Not to offend anyone but the beaches on Lake Erie are superior to any Ocean. No salt and no sharks, never mind dangerous riptides. 
 

For those that are interested looks up Port Dover and Friday the 13th. It’s a big deal.

@Rickybobby.FYI I have seen homes on Lakeshore in Burlington with Majesties year round in pots on their front entrances.  Believe it or not. I think you know the types of homes I’m talking about. 

Yes I know what your talking about my friend. And yes guys. This kinda thing is pretty normal here nowadays. Don’t be offended or surprised. It’s very hot here. Been almost 90 every day for weeks here. Yes winter it’s gets cold. However in the last 10 years. It’s been very warm with temps above freezing a lot during peak winter solstice. But hey it’s fun. It’s attracts people and yes. Lake Erie beaches on the Canadian side are beautiful white sand. Fresh water and warm water 

[Rickybobby]

5 hours ago, Valhallalla said:

One thing that is clear to me by these photos. Whether they are grown in Florida, California or Canada, queen palms almost always look like crap or at least could look much better. With well over two thousand species to choose I'll never understand the fascination with growing (or attempting to grow) this particular palm.

If the idea is to emulate the tropics and the plants will be brought indoors when the temperature drops, why not grow something that looks decent and actually belongs on a tropical beach like coconuts? Nothing symbolizes the tropics better than coconut palms. Even those Adonidias on the Jersey shore look much better than these queens and more tropical as well.

As far as oceans vs lakes, it is exactly the salt, sea life and currents that make ocean water preferable in my view. And while people do surf on the Great Lakes, it is generally done in the winter with ice chunks in the water and icicles hanging from surfers' faces. No thanks.

The queen palm has been the staple palm of port dover for many years now. Around the town are a ton of Adonidia they look great. The only thing I saw with my eyes you can’t see is the palms. Need fertilizer. They are burried in hot sand. 

[Rickybobby]

Just remember guys and be nice. This kinda thing is keeping a lot of nurseries going also businesses    I think it’s a great thing. And congrats to James at Norfolk exotics for now supplying what it seems all of onTario with palms 

[Rickybobby]

1 hour ago, redant said:

You all are desperate for the tropics lol, they look like poo.

I’ve seen a lot of palms in the tropics that look like poo as well. There are a lot of Florida nurseries that grow for Canada now and north. Don’t hate the playa hate the game 

[PalmatierMeg]

 Not knocking people in Ontario. If it makes everyone happy and doesn't bankrupt anyone, it's all good. But the queens would look so much better untrimmed and fertilized. But I know while they are fast growing, they have a lot less time to do so. Coconuts would look spectacular but are just too sensitive. Queens will take down to about -6C before croaking.

[redant]

1 hour ago, Rickybobby said:

I’ve seen a lot of palms in the tropics that look like poo as well. There are a lot of Florida nurseries that grow for Canada now and north. Don’t hate the playa hate the game 

Just joking, and yeah plenty of ratty palms in FL but usually because of no effort, someone went to a great deal of effort for that look.

[sipalms]

I've spent a fair bit of time in and around Southern Ontario with family there. I'm going to put a huge thumbs up of support on this thread!

I can confirm that the water in summer is exceptionally warm particularly Lake Erie, as mentioned the shallow/gradual shoreline warms much faster. Likely as warm or warmer than many coastal areas of New Zealand's subtropical north in mid summer.

It's surprising how nice it is, I've also been to Florida and California beaches and the great lakes beaches in Southern Ontario are pretty special in a unique kind of way. You only need to go to Toronto in mid winter to realise just how amazing it is in mid summer in these areas.

Also, not to mention the areas like Tobermory/Bruce Peninsula (this is lake Huron not Erie, so a bit cooler). Check out these pics I took there; Beautiful!!!

 

You can even indulge in a bit of cliff diving

 

But just have to watch out for the deadly Eastern Missisauga Rattlesnakes - we saw several....

 

[sipalms]

Getting back to the palms though - I love how Floridians and some others knock the Queens. 

What you have to realise, is it's widely considered by most on this forum that the Queen palm represents (at least for those of us in borderline climates) the benchmark for a proper tropical looking palm. Even if it's cut wrong or looks a bit scraggly, it immediately transforms a landscape into that elusive tropical/mediterranean look.

Because Queens grow en masse in every tropical and subtropical climate, they are likely what the non-palmy person would associate with these climates, visually.

So when one can successfully grow one in a borderline climate it is an extremely satisfying thing. 

They're a good fit for Port Dover, as they would be the longest lasting (Coconuts wouldn't stand a chance - after all, in Southern Ontario they can get light snowfall and very light freezes in May! yes May!). Whereas Queens would be fine from probably late April through to late September.

You can't argue, they do give the perfect vibe.

 

Check this out!

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by sipalms

[bar]

Thumbs up to putting Queen palms on the beach for the summer in Ontario.  Big queen palms are "relatively" cheap, so it makes more sense to plant these vs. more expensive tropical look palms.  And remember that it's all relative.  When I lived in NY Rhapidophylum hystrix was amazingly exotic looking, as was Cycas revoluta.  Now that I live in CA I would never plant one of them!  But I do have four queen plams, as well a lots of other species and genera.  To have any palm in Ontario look that good for the summer months is great.

The Queens are quick to grow, almost fool proof, and look attractive en masse.  They grow fast enough that you can soon plant understory palms under them.  Sure, Dypsis decipiens may be hardier, or at least as hardy, but painfully slow, and  I do want to view my established garden from earth, not the great beyond.

[ShadyDan]

I used to live about 45 minutes north of Port Dover on Lake Ontario. Can confirm the water and beaches are beautiful all over the north shore of Lake Erie. Much warmer than Lake Ontario! I’ll have to make a point to go to Dover to see these next time I’m back visiting (good excuse to get some jumbo perch fish’n’chips as well!). 
 

Many people don’t realize that the strip along Lake Erie and south shore of Lake Ontario are very mild (relatively speaking). The Great Lakes moderate temperatures here in the winter, making this area warmer in the winter than areas 100s of KMs further south in the US. Part of the reason Niagara Wines are so great. Not saying we will see mass plantings of palms anytime soon, but it’s a nice microclimate for Ontario  

 

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

3 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

I used to live about 45 minutes north of Port Dover on Lake Ontario. Can confirm the water and beaches are beautiful all over the north shore of Lake Erie. Much warmer than Lake Ontario! I’ll have to make a point to go to Dover to see these next time I’m back visiting (good excuse to get some jumbo perch fish’n’chips as well!). 
 

Many people don’t realize that the strip along Lake Erie and south shore of Lake Ontario are very mild (relatively speaking). The Great Lakes moderate temperatures here in the winter, making this area warmer in the winter than areas 100s of KMs further south in the US. Part of the reason Niagara Wines are so great. Not saying we will see mass plantings of palms anytime soon, but it’s a nice microclimate for Ontario  

 

I'm just curious, how warm exactly is warm in winter?  Are we talking Vancouver warm?  Victoria BC warm?  Salt Spring Island BC warm?    Port Dover, ON is listed as a USDA Hardiness zone 6B.   Id imagine in milder winters it could be a 7A.    Does the microclimate there push the zone even higher, say to maybe 7B?   The reason I ask is why not try things like Sabal Minor, Needle Palms, even Windmills there?   Id imagine Windmills could survive pretty well there and only need protection at certain times during abnormally cold snaps.    Just a thought.  

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 8/25/2021 at 2:26 PM, redant said:

You all are desperate for the tropics lol, they look like poo.

That they are.  When I lived in Washington D.C. where I was born and raised, we too, including me were desperate for the tropics as well.  Id imagine that is a reasonably common theme for northerners.   There were and still are, and now even more so, lots of places in the DC area that use palms in summer.  Mostly they seem to treat them as annuals, at least when I lived there.  I never liked that.   However they always looked great and healthy.  Even the coconut palms.  At least in the D.C. area you can easily grow sabal minor, needle, and windmills no problem. 

  They do look a bit crappy, but hey, gotta give them props for trying and succeeding!  At least they don't use them as annuals and actually put them in green houses in winter so they can keep growing.      If they stopped over pruning them, and also fertilized them better / more I bet they would look a lot better.  

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 8/25/2021 at 10:07 AM, Valhallalla said:

One thing that is clear to me by these photos. Whether they are grown in Florida, California or Canada, queen palms almost always look like crap or at least could look much better. With well over two thousand species to choose I'll never understand the fascination with growing (or attempting to grow) this particular palm.

If the idea is to emulate the tropics and the plants will be brought indoors when the temperature drops, why not grow something that looks decent and actually belongs on a tropical beach like coconuts? Nothing symbolizes the tropics better than coconut palms. Even those Adonidias on the Jersey shore look much better than these queens and more tropical as well.

As far as oceans vs lakes, it is exactly the salt, sea life and currents that make ocean water preferable in my view. And while people do surf on the Great Lakes, it is generally done in the winter with ice chunks in the water and icicles hanging from surfers' faces. No thanks.

Fully agree on all counts.   Ill take the sweet sweet life, living by the salty sea any day over any lake!   After being a Floridian now and living in southern FL,  I wont touch water that is under 80F.  Its still chilly until it gets to about 87F.   Right now the Gulf temp where I live is 91F and it feels amazing.  Remember body temp is 98F, so anything under that is still going to feel at least slightly cool ish.  

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

I'm just curious, how warm exactly is warm in winter?  Are we talking Vancouver warm?  Victoria BC warm?  Salt Spring Island BC warm?    Port Dover, ON is listed as a USDA Hardiness zone 6B.   Id imagine in milder winters it could be a 7A.    Does the microclimate there push the zone even higher, say to maybe 7B?   The reason I ask is why not try things like Sabal Minor, Needle Palms, even Windmills there?   Id imagine Windmills could survive pretty well there and only need protection at certain times during abnormally cold snaps.    Just a thought.  

6B Sounds right, only in parts of Niagara and down by Windsor will you see 7A.  Cold weather can linger for weeks, it's simply too cold for too long for any palm without some help through winter.  Every few years you will get a super warm winter where palms can survive but then you get the opposite of that every few years.

The warmest winter I remember resulted in no snow shoveling at my house, we never got more than 1/4" at any time.  One of my neighbors had Cordylines in the ground that overwintered great and the magnolias were blooming around the end of January.  BUT that is the exception, not the norm.  This was south Oakville a few hundred feet from the NW shore of Lake Ontario zone 6B.

 

[ShadyDan]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

6B Sounds right, only in parts of Niagara and down by Windsor will you see 7A.  Cold weather can linger for weeks, it's simply too cold for too long for any palm without some help through winter.  Every few years you will get a super warm winter where palms can survive but then you get the opposite of that every few years.

The warmest winter I remember resulted in no snow shoveling at my house, we never got more than 1/4" at any time.  One of my neighbors had Cordylines in the ground that overwintered great and the magnolias were blooming around the end of January.  BUT that is the exception, not the norm.  This was south Oakville a few hundred feet from the NW shore of Lake Ontario zone 6B.

 

@DCA_Palm_Fan what Chester said haha. Definitely not as warm in the winter as SW BC where I live now. But much warmer in the summer months. I think I have had more white Christmas’s living out west then I ever did in Niagara. There’s quite a seasonal lag in Southern Ontario due to the lakes. The real winter weather normally doesn’t show up until January/February. I just gave my folks a Sabal minor seedling I grew, I’m sure those and needle palms would do well there if sited properly. I’ve seen some healthy needle palms in Ohio away from the lakes, so S. Ontario should work too. I wouldn’t try a windmill in S. Ontario though without extensive protection. 

[Rickybobby]

In the last 5 years now we can’t even snowmobile around here anymore. Even going north to the snow belts has been brutal. For me anyway last year we had a very warm winter with daily highs in the pluses alot