Another big Canary in London

[Zeni]

2 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

We have some large (getting) ones growing in my area. I made a post about it:

I think with every decade we get more and more chances to grow more and many different species. The hotter and drier summers are probably the most beneficial, because they balance out some extreme winters and the damages of it.

I wonder how accurate zone data really is..especially for urban areas. Many weather stations seem located outside the urban zone or at exposed windy locations.

I live in The Hague and see lots of gardens with in the ground red cordylines which is supposed to be a 9a plant, but records place the city in 8a to 8b. There's also many old unprotected olive trees which should have died off but never did and I even saw one sizable unprotected washingtonia filibusta. 🤔

[Foxpalms]

25 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I had the same issue at the botanic garden of my city. I actually worked there for a few years and had discussions about what could be grown outside and what not. One person in particular who was responsible for a certain branch of exotic plantings outside constantly argued with me because they had worked as a gardener for 25+ years. It was sometimes rediculous because they planted out plants that were more tender than the ones I proposed. Like Kew (apprently) our botanic garden has also a colder climate than most of the city, because it's bit elevated very open and for some reason a very windy place inside the city, but it's not like it's Siberia out there. There is also a glass dome with several MEDITERRANEAN plants inside that could be grown outside. I would actually argue that almost anything native to the Mediterranean is hardy here, even in that garden. There are also already so many Mediterranean plants outside. But what made me really furious was that they wanted to CHOP DOWN an old Butia odorata from that dome because he said (AND THIS IS NO JOKE!!!): "We need to cut this thing down, this area is only for South American plants." ... HUH?! 🤯 I got so angry because I not only told him several times that Butia is one of THE South American plants, but showed him on my phone that they actually come from there. I also told him several times that it could be grown outside and showed him pictures of several Butias around the area. But nope... I also had several other discussion with people there but I was shocked that "professionals" who are in charge of important research and conservation know less than a young exotic gardening rookie.

That would definitely annoying people who rather than learning new information are too stubborn to try things. The good thing about some of the gardens in Cornwall is the owners and gardeners seem to be knowledgeable about exotic plants and like to try new things. When speaking to the gardeners in Cornwall you can tell they passionate about pushing the boundaries and they seem to have a much better understanding on microclimates ect. Unfortunately I don't think there are any botanical gardens in central London. Hopefully though I can use my garden as an example to what can grow here. 

[Foxpalms]

4 minutes ago, Zeni said:

I wonder how accurate zone data really is..especially for urban areas. Many weather stations seem located outside the urban zone or at exposed windy locations.

I live in The Hague and see lots of gardens with in the ground red cordylines which is supposed to be a 9a plant, but records place the city in 8a to 8b. There's also many old unprotected olive trees which should have died off but never did and I even saw one sizable unprotected washingtonia filibusta. 🤔

At least for here useless someone or I might have to make an updated hardiness zone for London. Some maps show the city of London as a zone 9a when the coldest this winter which was the coldest in 12 years was 29-30f there and most winters don't go below freezing. A zone 10a area. After that December freeze cannas were still green howea forsteriana were undamaged monstera deliciosa was undamaged ect. 

[Zeni]

23 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

At least for here useless someone or I might have to make an updated hardiness zone for London. Some maps show the city of London as a zone 9a when the coldest this winter which was the coldest in 12 years was 29-30f there and most winters don't go below freezing. A zone 10a area. After that December freeze cannas were still green howea forsteriana were undamaged monstera deliciosa was undamaged ect. 

Personally I wouldn't experiment with zone 10 plants in NW Europe, even if you could pull it off in central London, coastal southern England or Britanny France. The zone 10 exotics often need a lot of sunshine to look healthy which we lack, while the zone 8a to 9a exotics often come from the subtropics or mountains and fare much better. You want it to also look nice and not just barely survive. 😁

[Arecaceus]

34 minutes ago, Zeni said:

I wonder how accurate zone data really is..especially for urban areas. Many weather stations seem located outside the urban zone or at exposed windy locations.

I live in The Hague and see lots of gardens with in the ground red cordylines which is supposed to be a 9a plant, but records place the city in 8a to 8b. There's also many old unprotected olive trees which should have died off but never did and I even saw one sizable unprotected washingtonia filibusta. 🤔

Yup definitely. I mean the Zone data is already a better indicator for the US. Maybe there should be a European one, including more information. Because if you compare some milder cities here in Germany they might conclude similar or same USDA zones but in some of them cold weather occurs way more often and prolonged. Day time highs etc. ... . The official weather station of Düsseldorf should put it in 8a with the records of the last 100 years at least. But I would say most of the city is at least 8b and many parts even 9a. I consider myself (my garden) in 9a from the temperatures I've measured and plants doing well over the years. Idk why temperatures in big cities are still measured outside of the actual city because even in sommer it indicates cooler temperatures. What benefit do you have from knowing the "more accurate" temperature of nature when you live in an completely urbanised area. Some weather stations of the small cities around the Swiss lakes are also placed at higher elevations in the mountains, which makes them a lot colder. Doesn't make sense to me. I think especially here in Western Europe it's the best to risk and try and long term this will tell you what type of climate you have.

[Arecaceus]

44 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

That would definitely annoying people who rather than learning new information are too stubborn to try things. The good thing about some of the gardens in Cornwall is the owners and gardeners seem to be knowledgeable about exotic plants and like to try new things. When speaking to the gardeners in Cornwall you can tell they passionate about pushing the boundaries and they seem to have a much better understanding on microclimates ect. Unfortunately I don't think there are any botanical gardens in central London. Hopefully though I can use my garden as an example to what can grow here. 

I know but it's still sad because public information and press is going to listen to "experts". Like always. People in Europe seem to be generally less open minded when it comes to this and many other things. The will of taking risks isn't as big. I hope this is going to change. I mean even in the Mediterranean in extremely great climates the variety is not even comparable to similar climates in the US. It always takes a long time for new plants to creep into the common usage.

[Arecaceus]

10 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Personally I wouldn't experiment with zone 10 plants in NW Europe, even if you could pull it off in central London, coastal southern England or Britanny France. The zone 10 exotics often need a lot of sunshine to look healthy which we lack, while the zone 8a to 9a exotics often come from the subtropics or mountains and fare much better. You want it to also look nice and not just barely survive. 😁

Yet... 😏😂

[Foxpalms]

29 minutes ago, Zeni said:

Personally I wouldn't experiment with zone 10 plants in NW Europe, even if you could pull it off in central London, coastal southern England or Britanny France. The zone 10 exotics often need a lot of sunshine to look healthy which we lack, while the zone 8a to 9a exotics often come from the subtropics or mountains and fare much better. You want it to also look nice and not just barely survive. 😁

The zone 9b plants do well here archontophoenix, howea forsteriana,less hardy chamedoreas, birds of paradise, monstera deliciosa, jacaranda mimosifolia, Norfolk Island pine. I have a zone 10a non hardy bougainvillea that's doing well as well as some aloes and arid Zone 10a plants they don't need too much heat but I would agree the majority of zone 10a palms do. No way foxtails will be surviving outside here. Some those of Ceroxylons would probably do pretty well. Bismarckia, jubaeopsis and Beccariophoenix both stand a chance here. Livistona is another palm variety that should be planted more here. Most plants I'm going for are zone 9b since there's alot of 9b palms that tolerate cool conditions. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Zeni]

39 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I mean even in the Mediterranean in extremely great climates the variety is not even comparable to similar climates in the US. It always takes a long time for new plants to creep into the common usage.

When I was a kid in the 90s (I'm a millennial) I don't remember ever seeing Trachycarpus palms in Holland, even though they could have been grown reliably since the 60s. Probably a handful did, but it likely only became popular since the 2000s (post-Y2K), and only by the early 2010s did I notice it being offered by garden centres, supermarkets, and hardware stores.

Likewise a similar delay is occurring but with other varieties which only online niche growers offer.

[kristof p]

1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

The zone 9b plants do well here archontophoenix, howea forsteriana,less hardy chamedoreas, birds of paradise, monstera deliciosa, jacaranda mimosifolia, Norfolk Island pine. I have a zone 10a non hardy bougainvillea that's doing well as well as some aloes and arid Zone 10a plants they don't need too much heat but I would agree the majority of zone 10a palms do. No way foxtails will be surviving outside here. Some those of Ceroxylons would probably do pretty well. Bismarckia, jubaeopsis and Beccariophoenix both stand a chance here. Livistona is another palm variety that should be planted more here. Most plants I'm going for are zone 9b since there's alot of 9b palms that tolerate cool conditions. 

Livistona chinensis and L. nitida should be 2 hardy ones for Londen for sure. L. chinensis was the first palm I ever planted. It was protected and given extra heat for it's first 9 years but since 2015 it only gets loosely wrapped in frost cloth during cold spells and it's surprisingly hardy. The first few winters the (older) leaves burnt easily with some snow and temperatures lower then -4°C but never more damage then leaf burn from the cold and they get hardier over time...in 2021 it survived -7 to -8°C without damage on any leaves wrapped in frost cloth. They do hate direct exposer to freezing temperatures and snow when lower then -4°C... mind you this plant is planted in a very protected area close to the house at the base of two basement walls which keep the ground around it warmer and I doubt it ever saw more then -6 in this location.... it is very very slow growing in our climate so I would not start wit small plants. 

L. nitida is faster growing and just as hardy maybe  the leaves are more hardy then L. chinensies. I planted a seedling out more then ten years ago and it is still there with only frost cloth for protection. It did spearpull in 2021 but came back strong. Las cold spell it had no frost cloth and some of the leaves burned a little. I  also had a decora but they are prone to bud rot but also surprisingly hardy and should do fine in Londen....

Edited January 18, 2023 by kristof p

[Foxpalms]

13 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Livistona chinensis and L. nitida should be 2 hardy ones for Londen for sure. L. chinensis was the first palm I ever planted. It was protected and given extra heat for it's first 9 years but since 2015 it only gets loosely wrapped in frost cloth during cold spells and it's surprisingly hardy. The first few winters the (older) leaves burnt easily with some snow and temperatures lower then -4°C but never more damage then leaf burn from the cold andthey get hardier over time...in 2021 it survived -7 to -8°C without damage on any leaves wrapped in frost cloth. They do hate direct exposer to freezing temperatures and snow when lower then -4°C... mind you this plant is planted in a very protected area close to the house at the base of two basement walls witch keep the ground around it warmer and I doubt it ever saw more then -6 in this location.... it is very very slow growing in our climate so I would not start wit small plants. 

L. nitida is faster growing and just as hardy maybe  the leaves are more hardy then L. chinensies. I planted a seedling out more then ten years ago and it is still there with only frost cloth for protection. It did spearpull in 2021 but came back strong. Las cold spell it had no frost cloth and some of the leaves burned a little. I  also had a decora but they are prone to bud rot but also surprisingly hardy and should do fine in Londen....

I have livistona chilensis, nitida, saribus and decora. Livistona mariae is a nice one but it looses its crimson red colour as it get larger. I think all livistona will be fine here unprotected expect rotundifolia, that's the only one I'm not sure what the hardiness is on it.

[kristof p]

10 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I have livistona chilensis, nitida, saribus and decora. Livistona mariae is a nice one but it looses its crimson red colour as it get larger. I think all livistona will be fine here unprotected expect rotundifolia, that's the only one I'm not sure what the hardiness is on it.

L. jenkinsiana would be a nice one but they need a more subtropical climate.  But yes there should be a few more that maybe have a chance for the long term.

[Arecaceus]

1 hour ago, Zeni said:

When I was a kid in the 90s (I'm a millennial) I don't remember ever seeing Trachycarpus palms in Holland, even though they could have been grown reliably since the 60s. Probably a handful did, but it likely only became popular since the 2000s (post-Y2K), and only by the early 2010s did I notice it being offered by garden centres, supermarkets, and hardware stores.

Likewise a similar delay is occurring but with other varieties which only online niche growers offer.

Yup it's a similar situation here. Although Trachycarpus palms have been around at least by the 1960s and I've seen official Trachycarpus plantings by the city already when I was growing up but when I started growing palms myself in the late 2000s I only noticed how many palm trees we already have. I just never noticed before. There have been Trachys, Chamaerops and Butias around for quite a while, but they weren't as common and you didn't get them in masses everywhere. Nowadays every spring even in building supply stores there are masses of Trachys, Chamaerops, CIDPs and other exotic plants like Cupressus and Oleanders. Oleanders seem to become very common lately. I think Oleanders also become so popular because with the hotter and sunnier summers they really look great with all of their flowers. That's another discussion I had with a professional gardener, because they said that they can only survive in pots and barely ever flower. I've had Oleanders planted out for years and they always flower and not just that. A couple of years ago my first Oleander got pollinated by another Oleander somewhere around my neighbourhood via bees and it produced seeds. I germinated them and planted them out and they all look different and are now also flowering and getting pollinated. So many seeds that I cut them off because they start to naturalise! In 2008 everybody would have told you they don't grow here and now they start to naturalise.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Hortulanus

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

Wow thank you! Crazy how different the climate is in Kew, because it's still surrounded by a lot of urbanised area. I really think Kew could use more open areas to plant things out. But maybe they'll do it in the future. Too many unused areas.

Kew still benefits from the UHI, but it is located in southwest London away from the main city centre, so the effect is less pronounced. On top of that it is also a big open green space, meaning it is more susceptible to frost and cold pooling in general. Back during the December freeze, I remember central London went down to about -2C on one of the colder nights, whereas Kew went down to like -5C and I had about -7C out here in the countryside. Compared to Kew Gardens, central and eastern parts of London get a good 2-3C more protection from the UHI and by just not being a large green space that is right out in the open. It is probably an 8b/9a zone at Kew, whereas parts of central London are 9b/10a most years. I also agree that they do not make enough use of the space they have and the palm growing potential in that area too. I have criticised this aspect of Kew Gardens before.

 

1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

For some reason I get the impression that some of the botanists at Kew aren't extremely knowledgeable obviously some will be but I was reading an article about a Kew botanist that told the BBC there are Avocados growing in parts of London that got down to -10c in the last few years. Nowhere in London has gotten down to -10c in a very very long time. Also I remember @UK_Palmsmentioning that one of the gardeners at Kew said Washingtonia don't grow in London only a few years ago. Personally if I was them I would plant phoenix theophrasti, dactylifera, Sylvesteris and a syagrus romanzoffianana Santa Catarina outside.

Don't get me started on this lol. Kew could certainly be more adventurous with their outdoor plantings. They arguably have the most famous glasshouses in the world and the most famous gardens, yet they don't take advantage of the outdoor aspect. I have no idea what the hell is going on behind the scenes at Kew anymore and I don't think they really know either. There has been some very bizarre decision making going on in recent years. Lots of stuff has been planted inside the glasshouses that doesn't need to be in there and would thrive outside, such as a Washingtonia and another Jubaea. I say "another Jubaea" because they cut down the other massive Jubaea in the glasshouse a few years back, instead of attempting to move it outside, where it would thrive.

That felt pretty criminal at the time, but I somewhat understand. I know it would have been a monumental task to move the big Jubaea outdoors. However they have since planted yet another smaller Jubaea inside the glasshouse again, which will just face the exact same fate one day. Why on earth don't they just plant it outside, or even ship in a bigger Jubaea specimen to go outside!? Jubaea does great in London and there is a big specimen in Birmingham even. Kew certainly have the money to ship in bigger specimens of Butia, Jubaea, Phoenix, Washingtonia, Sabal etc to go outdoors. By planting some of these hardy types in the glass houses, it also takes up more space that could be used for the more tropical/tender palms!

Regarding the Washingtonia that were planted outdoors in 2021, they were tiny little specimens, no older than say 2-3 years. Again, surely Kew can spend a bit more money to get some decent sized specimens, or at least a bit bigger than the ones they planted. I mean they were tiny. On top of that, they actually planted them in January too, which is kind of stupid. A few weeks after we had a bad cold snap and they got a bit damaged since they were obviously small, only recently planted and still settling in. They should have just got some bigger specimens and planted them in the spring, in say April or something. So not only did they take ages to actually plant any washies out, but they went super small and planted them at the wrong time of year. 

Could you imagine if we were on the payroll there! @Foxpalms  we would have rows of Filifera/Filibusta near the front entrance, some big Phoenix Sylvestris flanking the glass houses and the largest outdoor Sabal collection in Europe. All perfectly doable if they had the right personnel planting the right stuff! It's Kew Gardens for heavens sake. Nowadays I would rather go for a walk around London to see palms/exotics than a walk around Kew. Heck you only need to walk 5 minutes down the road to see the two big twin Washies in the Richmond front yard. So something will need to change in regards to outdoor plantings at Kew, since the London street plantings are leaving them behind now!

[Arecaceus]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Kew still benefits from the UHI, but it is located in southwest London away from the main city centre, so the effect is less pronounced. On top of that it is also a big open green space, meaning it is more susceptible to frost and cold pooling in general. Back during the December freeze, I remember central London went down to about -2C on one of the colder nights, whereas Kew went down to like -5C and I had about -7C out here in the countryside. Compared to Kew Gardens, central and eastern parts of London get a good 2-3C more protection from the UHI and by just not being a large green space that is right out in the open. It is probably an 8b/9a zone at Kew, whereas parts of central London are 9b/10a most years. I also agree that they do not make enough use of the space they have and the palm growing potential in that area too. I have criticised this aspect of Kew Gardens before.

 

Don't get me started on this lol. Kew could certainly be more adventurous with their outdoor plantings. They arguably have the most famous glasshouses in the world and the most famous gardens, yet they don't take advantage of the outdoor aspect. I have no idea what the hell is going on behind the scenes at Kew anymore and I don't think they really know either. There has been some very bizarre decision making going on in recent years. Lots of stuff has been planted inside the glasshouses that doesn't need to be in there and would thrive outside, such as a Washingtonia and another Jubaea. I say "another Jubaea" because they cut down the other massive Jubaea in the glasshouse a few years back, instead of attempting to move it outside, where it would thrive.

That felt pretty criminal at the time, but I somewhat understand. I know it would have been a monumental task to move the big Jubaea outdoors. However they have since planted yet another smaller Jubaea inside the glasshouse again, which will just face the exact same fate one day. Why on earth don't they just plant it outside, or even ship in a bigger Jubaea specimen to go outside!? Jubaea does great in London and there is a big specimen in Birmingham even. Kew certainly have the money to ship in bigger specimens of Butia, Jubaea, Phoenix, Washingtonia, Sabal etc to go outdoors. By planting some of these hardy types in the glass houses, it also takes up more space that could be used for the more tropical/tender palms!

Regarding the Washingtonia that were planted outdoors in 2021, they were tiny little specimens, no older than say 2-3 years. Again, surely Kew can spend a bit more money to get some decent sized specimens, or at least a bit bigger than the ones they planted. I mean they were tiny. On top of that, they actually planted them in January too, which is kind of stupid. A few weeks after we had a bad cold snap and they got a bit damaged since they were obviously small, only recently planted and still settling in. They should have just got some bigger specimens and planted them in the spring, in say April or something. So not only did they take ages to actually plant any washies out, but they went super small and planted them at the wrong time of year. 

Could you imagine if we were on the payroll there! @Foxpalms  we would have rows of Filifera/Filibusta near the front entrance, some big Phoenix Sylvestris flanking the glass houses and the largest outdoor Sabal collection in Europe. All perfectly doable if they had the right personnel planting the right stuff! It's Kew Gardens for heavens sake. Nowadays I would rather go for a walk around London to see palms/exotics than a walk around Kew. Heck you only need to walk 5 minutes down the road to see the two big twin Washies in the Richmond front yard. So something will need to change in regards to outdoor plantings at Kew, since the London street plantings are leaving them behind now!

I don't know if this is true for Kew as well but in our botanic garden where I worked for almost 3 years they had some kind of policy that they were only allowed to plant plants with "habitat". Which meant proof of origin and to be 100% sure they had to get certified seeds from its natural habitat, which usually came from some botanical garden in the country a plant came from. There is a thing called Index Seminum which is like a seed data bank given out by all the botanical gardens of the world to send it to all the other botanical gardens in the world. It also includes seeds that are not native but have been collected inside the garden. OK! That's the rule but .... On the other hand sometimes they just randomly planted stuff that was given to them by some private person! 🤦‍♂️ My point is just that maybe Kew is taking this very seriously and that's why they only plant small seed grown palms. Idk about Kew but to me it sounded like most botanical gardens around the world work the same way.

[kristof p]

I plan on giving this P. canarensis var porphyrocarpa a go. It is at least 14 years old grown out of seeds collected in the south of france. I already killed one some 10ish years ago during a cold winter when it saw a low of -8°C (protected, it was completely kept dry), however this was still a juvenile plant.  -8°C is not a temperature that acures much, most winters see lows from -4 to -5 or -6.  And some winters with lows not lower as 2/-3°C. Last winter even virtually frost free. Best and most important of all I think are the days during winter when maximum temperatures are at or above 10°C have increased a lot over the years around here. So cold spells are also rarer and shorter... 

If this warming up trend goes on maybe this P. canarensis var porphyrocarpa will have a chance in the longterm. It is slow growing (at least potted) so it will take a few years untill it grows to big for protection. I will try to keep it as dry as possible during freak cold spells and even give it some extra heat when there are colder days with lows to -8°C in the future. but when it get's to a good trunking size it will have to grow and survive on it's own.

[UK_Palms]

Here are more London CIDP's that I didn't post in the previous update. Goes to show just how many are out there nowadays. These ones aren't as big as most of the other ones I posted on the previous page however. Still some impressive specimens though.

These first ones are in north London and got defoliated badly in the 2010 freeze when they were tiny. They have recovered fine since.

 

This is the nearest 'big' CIDP to my location on the outskirts of southeast London, about 20 minutes drive away.

 

There are tons lurking out there in back yards that cannot be seen or reached. I have posted a few overhead aerial backyard examples.

 

[Arecaceus]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:50 PM, kristof p said:

I plan on giving this P. canarensis var porphyrocarpa a go. It is at least 14 years old grown out of seeds collected in the south of france. I already killed one some 10ish years ago during a cold winter when it saw a low of -8°C (protected, it was completely kept dry), however this was still a juvenile plant.  -8°C is not a temperature that acures much, most winters see lows from -4 to -5 or -6.  And some winters with lows not lower as 2/-3°C. Last winter even virtually frost free. Best and most important of all I think are the days during winter when maximum temperatures are at or above 10°C have increased a lot over the years around here. So cold spells are also rarer and shorter... 

If this warming up trend goes on maybe this P. canarensis var porphyrocarpa will have a chance in the longterm. It is slow growing (at least potted) so it will take a few years untill it grows to big for protection. I will try to keep it as dry as possible during freak cold spells and even give it some extra heat when there are colder days with lows to -8°C in the future. but when it get's to a good trunking size it will have to grow and survive on it's own.

It's the same thing I'm doing right now with a seed grown even smaller plant. But the normal variety. If it makes it through this winter I will start a thread about it. So far it's been faring well. Or more like great! It has survived the cold spell of December 2022 with mulching and 3 layers of frost fleece without ANY damage. Not even brown tips. Because of the colder temperatures we had the last couple of days it is protected the same way again. We'll see how this winter ends and if it will really make it. I had two failed CIDP attempts in the past but not just due to frost. This time might be different if it works I will explain in the upcoming thread. Your climate seems to be similiar to mine so I would really like to see how your journey goes. I really believe that with the climate changeing so fast it's really worth a try because it seems likely that in a couple of years they could survive on their own especially with some size on them.

[Samuel]

Will be interesting to see an update in the spring after the freezes we have had Heathrow had its coldest January night since 1987 last night 🥶🥶

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, Samuel said:

Will be interesting to see an update in the spring after the freezes we have had Heathrow had its coldest January night since 1987 last night 🥶🥶

Yes it was the coldest night in 13 years last night since the infamous December 2010 freeze. Also the coldest January temperature since the famous 1987 freeze, which is just shocking, especially as this is also the 2nd major freeze this winter now. Also it was the 4th ever coldest January temperature at Heathrow and records go back to at least 1946! Only 3 other January nights have been colder during the 1982 and 1987 freezes. Heathrow was also only 1C away from the all-time record low temperature as well. So this is a serious freeze for us here.

Temperatures only went down to -3.8C / 25F at St James Park in central London however and that station is also right out in the open at a park. So at street level it would have been about 1C / 2F warmer probably. Maybe no colder than -2C / 28F in the more protected parts of central and eastern London. Probably not even cold enough to damage any CIDP or Washingtonia in those protected regions. A lot of the CIDP will be totally unfazed, even smaller specimens.

 

At least this winter will ween out any weaker less hardy CIDP and Washingtonia, especially in west London. That will help reinforce hardier seed stock moving forward. The stuff that survives in the inland western suburbs, near say Heathrow, will be good for collecting seed in the coming years. Smaller, less hardy specimens will probably get wiped out, but then again lots of them survived 2010 when small, so who knows?

Also for context the -8.4C at Heathrow was still not even half as cold as it got in Dallas, Texas during the Feb 2021 freeze when it got to -19C at the city’s main airport. Temperatures are also on the climb here as well in the sunshine. Heathrow is already back up to +2C at 11am and climbing rapidly. That is 10C of recovery / solar warming in about 4 hours. It certainly won’t be an ‘ice day’ there.

@gurugu Check out some of the London CIDP’s I posted above, including some new ones. A few of these may even be killed off now in this severe freeze in what has been a really bad winter for us here. If the ones in western London survive this winter with two serious freezes, they will survive anything here now.

Edited January 23, 2023 by UK_Palms

[Foxpalms]

Temperatures from the covent garden wunderground station and a Davis station in Chelsea and the city of London. The CIDPS and Washingtonia and probably even the kentia palms should be fine.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

Phoenix canariensis and Washingtonia robusta update at Kew. All the washingtonia center spears are firm.

[kristof p]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

Yes it was the coldest night in 13 years last night since the infamous December 2010 freeze. Also the coldest January temperature since the famous 1987 freeze, which is just shocking, especially as this is also the 2nd major freeze this winter now. Also it was the 4th ever coldest January temperature at Heathrow and records go back to at least 1946! Only 3 other January nights have been colder during the 1982 and 1987 freezes. Heathrow was also only 1C away from the all-time record low temperature as well. So this is a serious freeze for us here.

Temperatures only went down to -3.8C / 25F at St James Park in central London however and that station is also right out in the open at a park. So at street level it would have been about 1C / 2F warmer probably. Maybe no colder than -2C / 28F in the more protected parts of central and eastern London. Probably not even cold enough to damage any CIDP or Washingtonia in those protected regions. A lot of the CIDP will be totally unfazed, even smaller specimens.

 

At least this winter will ween out any weaker less hardy CIDP and Washingtonia, especially in west London. That will help reinforce hardier seed stock moving forward. The stuff that survives in the inland western suburbs, near say Heathrow, will be good for collecting seed in the coming years. Smaller, less hardy specimens will probably get wiped out, but then again lots of them survived 2010 when small, so who knows?

Also for context the -8.4C at Heathrow was still not even half as cold as it got in Dallas, Texas during the Feb 2021 freeze when it got to -19C at the city’s main airport. Temperatures are also on the climb here as well in the sunshine. Heathrow is already back up to +2C at 11am and climbing rapidly. That is 10C of recovery / solar warming in about 4 hours. It certainly won’t be an ‘ice day’ there.

@gurugu Check out some of the London CIDP’s I posted above, including some new ones. A few of these may even be killed off now in this severe freeze in what has been a really bad winter for us here. If the ones in western London survive this winter with two serious freezes, they will survive anything here now.

That is crazy...we stayed above feezing on the other side off the english channel. (Few miles from ostend, belguim). Not so far from you guys in england. Since the coldspell in december we only had a few Light freezes.

[kristof p]

8 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

It's the same thing I'm doing right now with a seed grown even smaller plant. But the normal variety. If it makes it through this winter I will start a thread about it. So far it's been faring well. Or more like great! It has survived the cold spell of December 2022 with mulching and 3 layers of frost fleece without ANY damage. Not even brown tips. Because of the colder temperatures we had the last couple of days it is protected the same way again. We'll see how this winter ends and if it will really make it. I had two failed CIDP attempts in the past but not just due to frost. This time might be different if it works I will explain in the upcoming thread. Your climate seems to be similiar to mine so I would really like to see how your journey goes. I really believe that with the climate changeing so fast it's really worth a try because it seems likely that in a couple of years they could survive on their own especially with some size on them.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how they grow over the years... I will also make a topic of this palm when planted out in the garden coming spring to share my experiances 

Edited January 23, 2023 by kristof p

[Foxpalms]

13 minutes ago, kristof p said:

That is crazy...we stayed above feezing on the other side off the english channel. (Few miles from ostend, belguim). Not so far from you guys in england. Since the coldspell in december we only had a few Light freezes.

I'm not sure why it was actually so cold last night because the isotherms aren't record breaking cold and the nights before we had clear skies this month and it was no where near as cold as last night. It was around 7c yesterday so it's not like in December when it was only 3c during the day. The heat just seemed to escaped into the atmosphere faster than usual.

[kristof p]

4 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I'm not sure why it was actually so cold last night because the isotherms aren't record breaking cold and the nights before we had clear skies this month and it was no where near as cold as last night. It was around 7c yesterday so it's not like in December when it was only 3c during the day. The heat just seemed to escaped into the atmosphere faster than usual.

Strange indeed. Let us hope this will not repeat in the near future 

[Little Tex]

Maybe it was for the best Kew didn't import large palms as suggested. But now if anything they will be more hesitant. In Houston after 2021 they were mass-planting Phoenix Dactylifera and Syagrus. But Im wary of how many survived and now we are getting hit again. This already killed most my 9b/10a palms since I was out of town.

[Foxpalms]

25 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

Maybe it was for the best Kew didn't import large palms as suggested. But now if anything they will be more hesitant. In Houston after 2021 they were mass-planting Phoenix Dactylifera and Syagrus. But Im wary of how many survived and now we are getting hit again. This already killed most my 9b/10a palms since I was out of town.

Kew gardens gets colder than the surrounding areas but it's not too bad for 9a and 8b palms the low last night there was 22.5f(the coldest temperature so far in 2023 there) actually last night was colder than in December there as well. Also you have to bear in mind most winters it doesn't get that cold there. Houston went down to 16f/17f in the city center which is ridiculous cold for 29 when the city of London (the warmest part of London) has only gone down to 30f in the coldest winter in 12 years. I think dactylifera would work at Kew and Sylvesteris. The Santa Catarina queen's might work near a building. Kew is 9a but can experience winters on the high end of 8b every 10 or so years. My 9b/10a palms haven't been protected here such as archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Alexandrae ect.  It's funny to think at Kew Washingtonia are damaged and 3 miles east of there in Hammersmith and Fulham bougainvillea still in flower and Norfolk Island pines are undamaged guess that's what the urban heat island and very dense houses does. When you say killed most of you're 9b/10a palms which ones survived? 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Little Tex]

12 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Kew gardens gets colder than the surrounding areas but it's not too bad for 9a and 8b palms the low last night there was 22.5f(the coldest temperature so far in 2023 there) actually last night was colder than in December there as well. Also you have to bear in mind most winters it doesn't get that cold there. Houston went down to 16f/17f in the city center which is ridiculous cold for 29 when the city of London (the warmest part of London) has only gone down to 30f in the coldest winter in 12 years. I think dactylifera would work at Kew and Sylvesteris. The Santa Catarina queen's might work near a building. Kew is 9a but can experience winters on the high end of 8b every 10 or so years. My 9b/10a palms haven't been protected here such as archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Alexandrae ect.  It's funny to think at Kew Washingtonia are damaged and 3 miles east of there in Hammersmith and Fulham bougainvillea still in flower and Norfolk Island pines are undamaged guess that's what the urban heat island and very dense houses does. When you say killed most of you're 9b/10a palms which ones survived? 

The ones I brought inside survived, sorry I should have clarified, I left Dictyosperma Album Conjugatum, Areca Vestiaria, Howea Forsteriana, Veitchia Joannis outside. Luckily some of them were inside along with my raveana.  All my 9a palms survived except for a queen which was already on its way out, I had a clump of Pheonix Robelleni that I got after the 2021 freeze that had lethal bronzing, the cold gave everything fungal infections which I got off my livistona and washingtonia. Ill just have to go to the valley and pick up some foxtails queens and coconuts, there pretty cheap down there most of them are field grown in Mexico or Mcallen or Brownsville. I might also pick up some kings. The only reason im attempting foxtails is because my neighbors survived two years until this past freeze.  The Coconuts will be for a rental in the valley.  Im still cautious on a royal in houston although some survived in cypress for a while. 

[Foxpalms]

12 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

The ones I brought inside survived, sorry I should have clarified, I left Dictyosperma Album Conjugatum, Areca Vestiaria, Howea Forsteriana, Veitchia Joannis outside. Luckily some of them were inside along with my raveana.  All my 9a palms survived except for a queen which was already on its way out, I had a clump of Pheonix Robelleni that I got after the 2021 freeze that had lethal bronzing, the cold gave everything fungal infections which I got off my livistona and washingtonia. Ill just have to go to the valley and pick up some foxtails queens and coconuts, there pretty cheap down there most of them are field grown in Mexico or Mcallen or Brownsville. I might also pick up some kings. The only reason im attempting foxtails is because my neighbors survived two years until this past freeze.  The Coconuts will be for a rental in the valley.  Im still cautious on a royal in houston although some survived in cypress for a while. 

Queen's, kings, howea and phoenix roebelenii are fine here but unfortunately the winters here are to cool to grow foxtails and Dictyosperma ect. I'm sure palms are cheap to buy in Texas unlike here. How easy is to to get roystonea regia elata might be a better option.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Foxpalms

[gurugu]

Meanwhile, South West coast of England isn't so cold, right? 

The same is happening here. Northeastern Spain (Cataluña, Aragón, etc.) is chilly right now. 

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, kristof p said:

That is crazy...we stayed above feezing on the other side off the english channel. (Few miles from ostend, belguim). Not so far from you guys in england. Since the coldspell in december we only had a few Light freezes.

We have just been very unfortunate this winter. Yes we have had two pretty cold air masses from the arctic come down in early-mid December and during the past week or so, but the extreme lows have been caused by clear skies all night long allowing the temperature to really plummet here. Whereas you guys have had much more cloud cover on the continent, keeping you milder at night. I didn’t see any clouds at all the past few days until the last hour or two.

It has finally clouded over a bit now, which will mean a much milder night tonight. Just across the channel form you guys on the east Kent coast they haven’t gone below 0C this winter. Last night it held up around 3-4C there. The problem is further inland, under clear skies and a cold airmass. Also sandy soils in my area mean the temperature plummets quicker and the valleys in my area make it worse under this kind of a setup. There is no microclimate here in winter, unlike London and coastal areas.

[kristof p]

46 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

We have just been very unfortunate this winter. Yes we have had two pretty cold air masses from the arctic come down in early-mid December and during the past week or so, but the extreme lows have been caused by clear skies all night long allowing the temperature to really plummet here. Whereas you guys have had much more cloud cover on the continent, keeping you milder at night. I didn’t see any clouds at all the past few days until the last hour or two.

It has finally clouded over a bit now, which will mean a much milder night tonight. Just across the channel form you guys on the east Kent coast they haven’t gone below 0C this winter. Last night it held up around 3-4C there. The problem is further inland, under clear skies and a cold airmass. Also sandy soils in my area mean the temperature plummets quicker and the valleys in my area make it worse under this kind of a setup. There is no microclimate here in winter, unlike London and coastal areas.

it was a mix of clouds and clear skies around here. Most of the snow and rains from the polar low missed the region along the coast here in Belguim.  Further inland and to the north there was a lot of snow and also quite colder. I took this picture of the big Cordyline at my parents home the same morning when 80 percent of the country was under snow... (last friday)

[Samuel]

4 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Phoenix canariensis and Washingtonia robusta update at Kew. All the washingtonia center spears are firm.

Some of those CIDP look pretty rough assuming we don’t get another freeze they should pull through but another spell like this would probably could see them off 

[Little Tex]

1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

Queen's, kings, howea and phoenix roebelenii are fine here but unfortunately the winters here are to cool to grow foxtails and Dictyosperma ect. I'm sure palms are cheap to buy in Texas unlike here. How easy is to to get roystonea regia elata might be a better option.

I could probably get a 5 footer in mcallen for 100$ at an open air market I know one guy who sells them in a 5 gallon for 25$

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, gurugu said:

Meanwhile, South West coast of England isn't so cold, right? 

The same is happening here. Northeastern Spain (Cataluña, Aragón, etc.) is chilly right now. 

 

It never gets anywhere near as cold as here in south west England. The lowest temperature in the Scilly Isles this winter is +3C so far, despite the two freezes. The lowest temperature on the far southwestern tip of Cornwall is about +2C this winter at Porthcurno. Most of coastal Cornwall was around 10C at midnight last night but they had some cloud cover. Tonight it is clear skies all night there, so it will be interesting to see how the temperatures hold up in coastal Cornwall under a very cold airmass and clear skies. 

Another area that has performed exceptionally during both freezes this winter is the far south east coast of England in Kent around Margate-Broadstairs-Ramsgate area. Just across the channel from Belgium/Netherlands. It hasn't gone below +1C this winter there. Last night it didn't go below 4C along the coast of east Kent. Another very strong microclimate there, which has outperformed places like Ventnor on the Isle of Wight during both freezes. That part of Kent is actually loaded with Phoenix Canariensis and Washingtonia.

The various London microclimates are ridiculous too though. Take west London for instance - Heathrow went down to -8.4C (coldest temperature in 13 years and coldest January temperature in 36 years) however just 5 miles away at Kew Gardens, it only went down to -5.3C. So that is a difference of 3.1C across just 5 miles (as the crow flies) in west London. Kew itself is a notorious frost hollow within the city. Sometimes it is the coldest station in London. Both stations are located right out in the open and quite exposed, but Kew is technically closer to central London than Heathrow, so maybe it benefits more from the urban heat island perhaps.

The absolute minimum in central London around the Chelsea-Westminster area was -2C / 28F last night, which was 6-7C warmer than Heathrow and the far western inland suburbs. That is not very cold at all in the heart of the city, despite the severity of this freeze. Not even cold enough for any damage. That central London microclimate by the Thames is ridiculous. It must be the most prominent/strongest UHI in Europe for sure. About 7C warmer than the outer suburbs of northwest London during freeze events. I don't think that part of central London has seen anything colder than -4C there since the 1962-63 winter. It is warmer there than at the London City airport area, which is another mild spot.

I see it is very cold in the Balearic Islands as well with frosts almost at sea level. Hopefully winter will be packing its bags soon. The past 2 months have been really bad here.

[Foxpalms]

It looks like finally tonight there will be cloud cover here. That Margate microclimate is pretty good for growing palms these seem to be the warmest weather stations there. The Scilly isles haven't gone below 38f/3.3c this winter. Penzance had a low of 0c/32f in December and the porthcurno area barely went below freezing. The lowest temperature ventnor has seen this winter has been 30.4f.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Samuel]

59 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

It never gets anywhere near as cold as here in south west England. The lowest temperature in the Scilly Isles this winter is +3C so far, despite the two freezes. The lowest temperature on the far southwestern tip of Cornwall is about +2C this winter at Porthcurno. Most of coastal Cornwall was around 10C at midnight last night but they had some cloud cover. Tonight it is clear skies all night there, so it will be interesting to see how the temperatures hold up in coastal Cornwall under a very cold airmass and clear skies. 

Another area that has performed exceptionally during both freezes this winter is the far south east coast of England in Kent around Margate-Broadstairs-Ramsgate area. Just across the channel from Belgium/Netherlands. It hasn't gone below +1C this winter there. Last night it didn't go below 4C along the coast of east Kent. Another very strong microclimate there, which has outperformed places like Ventnor on the Isle of Wight during both freezes. That part of Kent is actually loaded with Phoenix Canariensis and Washingtonia.

The various London microclimates are ridiculous too though. Take west London for instance - Heathrow went down to -8.4C (coldest temperature in 13 years and coldest January temperature in 36 years) however just 5 miles away at Kew Gardens, it only went down to -5.3C. So that is a difference of 3.1C across just 5 miles (as the crow flies) in west London. Kew itself is a notorious frost hollow within the city. Sometimes it is the coldest station in London. Both stations are located right out in the open and quite exposed, but Kew is technically closer to central London than Heathrow, so maybe it benefits more from the urban heat island perhaps.

The absolute minimum in central London around the Chelsea-Westminster area was -2C / 28F last night, which was 6-7C warmer than Heathrow and the far western inland suburbs. That is not very cold at all in the heart of the city, despite the severity of this freeze. Not even cold enough for any damage. That central London microclimate by the Thames is ridiculous. It must be the most prominent/strongest UHI in Europe for sure. About 7C warmer than the outer suburbs of northwest London during freeze events. I don't think that part of central London has seen anything colder than -4C there since the 1962-63 winter. It is warmer there than at the London City airport area, which is another mild spot.

I see it is very cold in the Balearic Islands as well with frosts almost at sea level. Hopefully winter will be packing its bags soon. The past 2 months have been really bad here.

Think the main reason kent has done well is because the cold has come from the north Kent gets battered by easterly winds from Siberia which have little moderation look at this from 1987 for example even the centre of London got very cold and would damage/outright kills palms the maximums didn’t get above -7c absolutely incredible 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Samuel

[Foxpalms]

6 minutes ago, Samuel said:

Think the main reason kent has done well is because the cold has come from the north Kent gets battered by easterly winds from Siberia which have little moderation look at this from 1987 for example even the centre of London got very cold and would damage/outright kills palms the maximums didn’t get above -7c absolutely incredible 

I'm not sure but lots of those websites showing temperatures like that don't turn out to be particularly accurate at least from my experience in recent years. The coldest temperature in "London" was -9c during the 87 freeze but again who knows where that was recorded unlikely central London. can't seem to find any weather station data from from central London. During that freeze the Scilly isles were colder than London (that's when all the Rhopalostylis sapida and the archontophoenix Alexandrae that flowered died). I think the tresco abbey gardens recorded -8c and the helipad was -12c.

[Arecaceus]

The weather is like always nowadays a bit weird right now. It's been staying way warmer here than predicted for a while now. I had barely any frost the last couple of days even with some Eastern winds and clears skies. It snowed around 2 times but it didn't stay. Crazy to hear that even further to the West from here in Belgium there was snow cover inland. The weirdest part is still that the temperatures are not fluctuating much. It's 2 to 3°C all day and all night. It's supposed to get warmer the upcoming days and especially next week but it's also supposed to get rainier. One thing I really appreciate about this cold weather right now is, that at least here it gives the damaged plants from Dec 22 a break of constant moisture from the pouring rain.