Mule palms

[96720]

My mule palms have bloomed a lot but never set seeds is what I would expect but this time they set seeds ate they ever viable?

[Scott W]

Mule palms, while fruit and seed may develop, is primarily known to be infertile.  However,  the male pollen is fertile and could be used to back cross back to another Butia.

Frankenstein Palms

 

[RJ]

4 hours ago, Scott W said:

Mule palms, while fruit and seed may develop, is primarily known to be infertile.  However,  the male pollen is fertile and could be used to back cross back to another Butia.

Frankenstein Palms

 

Meh…. This is questionable. If it was  the case we would see a lot of back crosses 

Edited September 13, 2021 by RJ

[Scott W]

9 hours ago, RJ said:

Meh…. This is questionable. If it was  the case we would see a lot of back crosses 

Probably not, as the process of making the mule is pretty arduous itself, so why go through all the work just to produce a hybrid palm that is going to look more like Butia.  Besides, the point of the Mule palm was to produce a palm that has cold hardy characteristics and that "looks" more tropical.

With that...I can only state what I've read through my research as as I head towards doing my own experimentation.  

 

[Joe NC]

5 hours ago, Scott W said:

Probably not, as the process of making the mule is pretty arduous itself, so why go through all the work just to produce a hybrid palm that is going to look more like Butia.  Besides, the point of the Mule palm was to produce a palm that has cold hardy characteristics and that "looks" more tropical.

With that...I can only state what I've read through my research as as I head towards doing my own experimentation.  

 

I'm planning on trying mule pollen on a Butia next year.  TBD on how successful I will be.  

I've tried Butia pollen on a mule with no luck.

Best case the offspring are somewhat between a mule and Butia in looks, and are fast growing and cold hardy.   Worst case they are slow growing, look just like Butia and die at 22F...

[PalmatierMeg]

In almost all cases if a mule palm sets seeds, they are not viable. But I've heard it has happened - true or not? Still, my bet is if you cut the seeds open you will find no embryo inside.

[Chris Chance]

From what I've witnessed on mine so far is they won't set seed but I know the male pollen could be used on other Syagrus and Butia. I have a Cocoqueen that's holding lots of seed right now. Been curious so see if they're viable. If not I might just cut the flowers off in the future. 

[RJ]

15 hours ago, Scott W said:

Probably not, as the process of making the mule is pretty arduous itself, so why go through all the work just to produce a hybrid palm that is going to look more like Butia.  Besides, the point of the Mule palm was to produce a palm that has cold hardy characteristics and that "looks" more tropical.

With that...I can only state what I've read through my research as as I head towards doing my own experimentation.  

 

I’ve got two mule back grosses from patrix. These are from the pollen of two mutant mules that dr. Wilcox produced in HBG . Gary Lavine has two F2 mules that he has grown from seed from the HBG , Patrix got the pollen from these mules and has back crossed them . The result is my two yatay x bq mule. He has made a few other iirc . Bjxbq as well. I think I have one of these and they’re quite variable. I’ll have to look at my paperwork. Patrix tried to backcross mules from many of Dicks giant mules with no luck. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by RJ

[DoomsDave]

My big one produces buckets of infertile seed.

[96720]

Maybe that is why mine is now producing seed because it is big it has never produced seed before 

[Hillizard]

My ~20-foot mule palm (xButiagrus nabonnandii) decided it was finally time to bloom! Too bad the seeds will probably be infertile.

[Dwarf Fan]

10 hours ago, Hillizard said:

My ~20-foot mule palm (xButiagrus nabonnandii) decided it was finally time to bloom! Too bad the seeds will probably be infertile.

Can we get a wider shot of that 20 ft blooming Mule please!?!

Also, what color is the base of the trunk/boots BURGUNDY or GREEN???

[Bkue]

I am at Orlando’s evermore resort. Tons of mules. Most in seed. Was always told they were mules cause they can’t reproduce same as the equestrian variety. Counterintuitive to other crosses I’ve seen.   

[Willan]

Mule palms are usually sterile, so it's rare for them to set seeds. If they did, there's a chance they could be viable, but it's not a guarantee. You could try planting a few and see if they germinate, but don't get your hopes too high.

[Hillizard]

14 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Can we get a wider shot of that 20 ft blooming Mule please!?!

Also, what color is the base of the trunk/boots BURGUNDY or GREEN???

My mule palm surrounded by other plants, so it's not possible to get a clear shot. Hope these images answer some of your questions!😉 At this stage of growth, there is no clear trunk, but the boots definitely turn burgundy in time. I got this palm as a seedling, along with two others, from Phil at Jungle Music years ago. 

[Dwarf Fan]

On 8/8/2024 at 12:27 PM, Hillizard said:

My mule palm surrounded by other plants, so it's not possible to get a clear shot. Hope these images answer some of your questions!😉 At this stage of growth, there is no clear trunk, but the boots definitely turn burgundy in time. I got this palm as a seedling, along with two others, from Phil at Jungle Music years ago. 

 

 

Hillizard, YES thank you it is nice to keep trying to flesh out this hypothesis about Mule characteristics and boot/petiole color, as they say a picture is worth a thousand words! 🙌

BTW, I noticed you up voted my post in the thread “Mule palm - How can I tell if it's leaning towards Buti or Syagrus?” 
https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/81234-mule-palm-how-can-i-tell-if-its-leaning-towards-buti-or-syagrus/
 

In the video referenced Davis Casella discusses his findings that indicate a Mule with a BURGUNDY trunk that produces Yellow Inflorescence leans more Butia and a GREEN trunk Mule that produces Red Inflorescence leans more Queen.

 

So if this is the case your Mule should follow our theoretical “Rule of Thumb”:

BURGUNDY petiole with BURGUNDY boots (& YELLOW Inflorescence) = THICKER Trunk & THICKER leaflets.

More like this:

 

NOT like this:

[Hillizard]

On 8/8/2024 at 10:27 AM, Hillizard said:

My mule palm surrounded by other plants, so it's not possible to get a clear shot. Hope these images answer some of your questions!😉 At this stage of growth, there is no clear trunk, but the boots definitely turn burgundy in time. I got this palm as a seedling, along with two others, from Phil at Jungle Music years ago. 

Seeds are forming on my mule palm infructescence now, and the local honey bees seem very interested in whatever sap is being produced during this process. Later on, I'll probably put the seeds in a big community pot, although I understand the embryos are usually nonviable.

[Bigfish]

On 8/16/2024 at 8:23 PM, Hillizard said:

Seeds are forming on my mule palm infructescence now, and the local honey bees seem very interested in whatever sap is being produced during this process. Later on, I'll probably put the seeds in a big community pot, although I understand the embryos are usually nonviable.

 

You can save yourself the time, space, and effort by sacrificing a few seeds by cutting them open to check for endosperm and embryo.  A lot of Butiagrus seeds will just be solid all the way through (called “stones”), some will have endosperm with no embryo, and every great once in a while you can find one that produces the occasional good seed. 

[Fusca]

Fruits are still delicious.  😛

 

On 8/16/2024 at 7:23 PM, Hillizard said:

Seeds are forming on my mule palm infructescence now, and the local honey bees seem very interested in whatever sap is being produced during this process. Later on, I'll probably put the seeds in a big community pot, although I understand the embryos are usually nonviable.

[Hillizard]

18 hours ago, Bigfish said:

You can save yourself the time, space, and effort by sacrificing a few seeds by cutting them open to check for endosperm and embryo.  A lot of Butiagrus seeds will just be solid all the way through (called “stones”), some will have endosperm with no embryo, and every great once in a while you can find one that produces the occasional good seed. 

Thanks for the suggestion Bigfish. I will definitely do that once the seeds are fully developed. 😉

[Scott W]

On 8/16/2024 at 8:23 PM, Hillizard said:

Seeds are forming on my mule palm infructescence now, and the local honey bees seem very interested in whatever sap is being produced during this process. Later on, I'll probably put the seeds in a big community pot, although I understand the embryos are usually nonviable.

 

On the mule I had at my old house I found that the seed appeared to start forming like in your video then the palm, over the course of several weeks, just did a mass abortion and all dropped off eventually.

 

[Hillizard]

On 8/8/2024 at 10:27 AM, Hillizard said:

My mule palm surrounded by other plants, so it's not possible to get a clear shot. Hope these images answer some of your questions!😉 At this stage of growth, there is no clear trunk, but the boots definitely turn burgundy in time. I got this palm as a seedling, along with two others, from Phil at Jungle Music years ago. 

Fruits are developing nicely on my mule palm... too bad most of them are probably sterile!