Bismarckia cold hardiness

[Darius]

Good day to all reading to any one who has bismarckia in a borderline zone what is the expected low they could take and could they take lower than -7c or 22f? If its only for an hour or 2.  Here is mine that experienced -7c for an hour and recovering well. 

[kinzyjr]

@Darius There are a few in Hastings, FL that got hit with 19F (-7.22C) according to the property owner's weather station and they are doing fine.  Hope yours keep recovering! 

[Reyes Vargas]

1 hour ago, Darius said:

Good day to all reading to any one who has bismarckia in a borderline zone what is the expected low they could take and could they take lower than -7c or 22f? If its only for an hour or 2.  Here is mine that experienced -7c for an hour and recovering well. 

Bismarckia in the RGV in Texas expirenced 22f/-5.5c and most I would say 90% recovered.  Don't know how many hours we stayed below freezing though.  

[tinman10101]

mine has survived 26F for 5-6 hrs and was fine.  of course the bigger they are, the more resilient they are to long term extreme cold duration.

[Fusca]

Also consider that there is some variation in cold hardiness among populations of Bismarckia.  There is a green variation of Bismarckia in addition to seemingly different populations of the silver Bismarckia.  Supposedly the more purple color as a juvenile the size of yours the more intense the silver color becomes as it ages and the more cold hardy it will be and able to handle those temperatures.  Hard to tell from your photos @Darius the colors of your palm.  Below is a photo of mine which had a lot of purple when I bought it in 2018 and is just now starting to show some nice silver color.  Back in the early 2000's it was considered a zone 10a palm because many reported death or heavy damage just a few degrees below freezing.  I believe mine is from the hardier population and hopefully yours is as well.

[Darius]

Thanks for all the replies this one i have is less purple here are the rest and i dont know how many of them survived some look heavy damaged.

[KDubU]

Glad yours is recovering. I questioned whether I should plant one here in 9a as I have not seen any around. Only two days ago I took a different road and happened to see a decent sized one around 20’. Turns out it’s only a couple roads over and I had never seen it. Now I am on the hunt for a decent sized one as I would like to get a 30g or so.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

I had two Bizzies survive Palmageddon which was a low of 15° Granted it was with protection,  moving blankets and Xmas lights. Bizzies are very underrated In there cold hardiness , very bud hardy. 

T J 

[Merlyn]

There's definitely some variation.  A neighbor's small one (about the same size as Darius' original photos) was defoliated with frost at 28F this year and died.  It didn't look "great" before that, and it was definitely on the green side.  The same one was also defoliated with a 1 hour blast of 25F 3 years ago, but it recovered that time.  I'm guessing it was just a genetic weakling or was in poor health to begin with.

[Keys6505]

Here's mine recovering from defoliation/spear pull after 15 degrees in February only to be taught to limbo by Hurricane Nicholas last week.   There are several other big trunking ones that survived around town as well.  

[JLM]

18 hours ago, Fusca said:

Also consider that there is some variation in cold hardiness among populations of Bismarckia.  There is a green variation of Bismarckia in addition to seemingly different populations of the silver Bismarckia.  Supposedly the more purple color as a juvenile the size of yours the more intense the silver color becomes as it ages and the more cold hardy it will be and able to handle those temperatures.  Hard to tell from your photos @Darius the colors of your palm.  Below is a photo of mine which had a lot of purple when I bought it in 2018 and is just now starting to show some nice silver color.  Back in the early 2000's it was considered a zone 10a palm because many reported death or heavy damage just a few degrees below freezing.  I believe mine is from the hardier population and hopefully yours is as well.

I have a seedling, and its basically all purple, except for the emerging leaf, which is silver. Is this good? Hopefully it is definitely on the hardier side.

[Fusca]

5 minutes ago, JLM said:

I have a seedling, and its basically all purple, except for the emerging leaf, which is silver. Is this good? Hopefully it is definitely on the hardier side.

Sounds good!

[DAVEinMB]

2 hours ago, Keys6505 said:

Here's mine recovering from defoliation/spear pull after 15 degrees in February only to be taught to limbo by Hurricane Nicholas last week.   There are several other big trunking ones that survived around town as well.  

This really makes me want to try one

[JLM]

11 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

This really makes me want to try one

You're in 8b right? Im trying one here, started it from seed last winter, its now a 4 leaf seedling in the ground. Probably going to cover it up for anything below 28F for now, since its so young. Might also try to protect it from frost as well. You should definitely try one, of course, for experimentation purposes 

[CiprianS]

2 hours ago, Keys6505 said:

Here's mine recovering from defoliation/spear pull after 15 degrees in February only to be taught to limbo by Hurricane Nicholas last week.   There are several other big trunking ones that survived around town as well.  

How old is that Bizzie that you have there? I guess you put it back in a straight position after Nicholas, right?  

[Keys6505]

5 hours ago, CiprianS said:

How old is that Bizzie that you have there? I guess you put it back in a straight position after Nicholas, right?  

Not really sure, I got it as a 6.5g from Lowes last March-ish.  It took off like a rocket lat year.  Went from about 3' to over the 6' fence by the end of the summer.  Was super slow to recover from the freeze though.  I trunk cut in July after the spear finally pulled and not long after after was the first signs of any life.  That's why I think the 8b pushers might have a hard time.  Bizzys love heat and if they get knocked back they don't come back fast enough to strengthen back up for the next blast and that's with TX heat.  I'd bet if we had another nasty winter it'd be a goner.  I lost my other one that was planted at the same time.  And yes, I propped it back ap, but it's surprisingly tight and I'm afraid of potentially damaging any more roots because of their sensitivity.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Keys6505

[CiprianS]

1 hour ago, Keys6505 said:

Not really sure, I got it as a 6.5g from Lowes last March-ish.  It took off like a rocket lat year.  Went from about 3' to over the 6' fence by the end of the summer.  Was super slow to recover from the freeze though.  I trunk cut in July after the spear finally pulled and not long after after was the first signs of any life.  That's why I think the 8b pushers might have a hard time.  Bizzys love heat and if they get knocked back they don't come back fast enough to strengthen back up for the next blast and that's with TX heat.  I'd bet if we had another nasty winter it'd be a goner.  I lost my other one that was planted at the same time.  And yes, I propped it back ap, but it's surprisingly tight and I'm afraid of potentially damaging any more roots because of their sensitivity.

That is odd. I got mine as a 14G from Lowe’s and they did not increase in size as yours did. They only increased a little bit in width. And the new fronds did not pass the height of the ones that they had before I planted them. Maybe when they are bigger they don’t take off that fast…I need to see what will happen with them next year. I started a topic to keep track of them.  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

There is alot to be said about palm trees that are pot bound. I have found 5g palms are the perfect size to get in the ground. Anything bigger has to spend more time with there root system and chances are they were grown in shade so there stretched out some so the next leaves will be shorter in sun. Bizzies are most likely bulletproof in most 9a , 8b will be a challenge but can be done with decent protection techniques 2 of mine didn't even defoliate after palmageddon. 

T J

[DAVEinMB]

21 hours ago, JLM said:

You're in 8b right? Im trying one here, started it from seed last winter, its now a 4 leaf seedling in the ground. Probably going to cover it up for anything below 28F for now, since its so young. Might also try to protect it from frost as well. You should definitely try one, of course, for experimentation purposes 

Yea I'm in 8b dreaming about 9a lol. I've seen so many examples of bizzies being as tough if not tougher than queens that I can't help but think it might not be a complete waste of time. Both will need protection of course but the arctic events that would require additional work don't happen all that often. Definitely often enough that neither of these are used as common plantings but most people want things in their yard that don't require special care. The way things are going I feel like my entire yard is slowly becoming "an 8b experiment" so why the hell not haha

[sonoranfans]

I planted a 3-5 gallon and a 15 gallon bizzie at the same time both full sun.  The smaller one caught up in 3-4 years.  Here in florida I would hypothesize that a bigger palm's size advantage is short.  Root hormone production hits a peak, not sure where that would be but bizzies are evolved to send a deep root down ASAP.  Defeating this for 5-6 years may ultimately slow growth.  As far as 8b, they may survive for a few years but that killing cold front is never too far away.  Out west with the dry, brief cold they take to the low 20's and come back strong.  These longer wet colds seem to be a bigger problem, they seem to die at 22-23F.  Recovery from a short cold may be fast but the longer cold damages more plant tissue, it may not ever be healthy again.  Look up bismarckia in the freeze section, 20 years and a ton of data there.  If I was in 8b I'd go with brahea armata, nice blue ones, W Filifera, sabals, plus some phoenix sp.

[Willis]

DaveinMB....I'm also in SC (Florence) & of course 8b too. I'm thinking of trying a Bizzie but in a large pot (25 gallon) and then putting in our greenhouse. I have several non 8b palms that I put in greenhouse. Queens, Christmas, Areca, and several Plumerias. I'd love to see what your doing to keep your palms warm in winter. Florence in slightly colder the MB, but we've had mild winters recently. 

[Xenon]

4 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Yea I'm in 8b dreaming about 9a lol. I've seen so many examples of bizzies being as tough if not tougher than queens 

with a big *asterisk that somewhere like Houston or New Orleans hasn't dropped below 25F in 80-90% of winters in the past 30 years. The extreme lows they survive is impressive but the stretches of mild winters are just as integral. 

[DAVEinMB]

4 hours ago, Xenon said:

with a big *asterisk that somewhere like Houston or New Orleans hasn't dropped below 25F in 80-90% of winters in the past 30 years. The extreme lows they survive is impressive but the stretches of mild winters are just as integral. 

Yea I second the asterisk haha. I'd like to think my attitude towards my landscaping is hopefully optimistic while constantly dreading the reality of where I live. I'm very new to growing palms (a little over 3 years) so I haven't gotten a reality check yet. Once that happens If I'm not pleasantly surprised my attitude is likely to change. 

[JLM]

1 minute ago, DAVEinMB said:

Yea I second the asterisk haha. I'd like to think my attitude towards my landscaping is hopefully optimistic while constantly dreading the reality of where I live. I'm very new to growing palms (a little over 3 years) so I haven't gotten a reality check yet. Once that happens If I'm not pleasantly surprised my attitude is likely to change. 

Neither have I, but even if i was to lose palms i would just put the exact same thing back into the exact same hole, because i like them being there. Growing zones wont stop me from enjoying them, especially during summer 

[DAVEinMB]

9 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I planted a 3-5 gallon and a 15 gallon bizzie at the same time both full sun.  The smaller one caught up in 3-4 years.  Here in florida I would hypothesize that a bigger palm's size advantage is short.  Root hormone production hits a peak, not sure where that would be but bizzies are evolved to send a deep root down ASAP.  Defeating this for 5-6 years may ultimately slow growth.  As far as 8b, they may survive for a few years but that killing cold front is never too far away.  Out west with the dry, brief cold they take to the low 20's and come back strong.  These longer wet colds seem to be a bigger problem, they seem to die at 22-23F.  Recovery from a short cold may be fast but the longer cold damages more plant tissue, it may not ever be healthy again.  Look up bismarckia in the freeze section, 20 years and a ton of data there.  If I was in 8b I'd go with brahea armata, nice blue ones, W Filifera, sabals, plus some phoenix sp.

There's a nursery in town that stocks 1 to 2 bizzies each year just because the owner likes them so much, I believe they're in the 30 gallon range. If I was to try one that would be my starting point. He's had one in the ground outside his nursery for 2, maybe 3 years and it looks pretty good. He doesn't protect it either. My biggest inspiration for trying one here is @palmbrad bizzie in Summerville, I wanna say he's said it's going on 9 years in the ground. If I keep expanding my collection a bizzie is at some point going to get a go. I'm already assuming it will be a short run but I feel like I gotta try, ya know? Brahea Armata has been on my radar as well, love the color.

[DAVEinMB]

5 hours ago, Willis said:

DaveinMB....I'm also in SC (Florence) & of course 8b too. I'm thinking of trying a Bizzie but in a large pot (25 gallon) and then putting in our greenhouse. I have several non 8b palms that I put in greenhouse. Queens, Christmas, Areca, and several Plumerias. I'd love to see what your doing to keep your palms warm in winter. Florence in slightly colder the MB, but we've had mild winters recently. 

Welcome to the forum, glad to see more people in my neck of the woods on here. I really haven't done much for protection as the last few winters haven't been very trying. This past summer I planted a 1 gallon queen and it came through the winter without protection. I've got some mules and a pretty large Sylvestris that haven't really flinched either. They've all gotten pretty big since being planted so they're prolly going to be on their own if we get zapped in the near future

[Xenon]

18 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Yea I second the asterisk haha. I'd like to think my attitude towards my landscaping is hopefully optimistic while constantly dreading the reality of where I live. I'm very new to growing palms (a little over 3 years) so I haven't gotten a reality check yet. Once that happens If I'm not pleasantly surprised my attitude is likely to change. 

Oh no I haven't learned anything at all...planted a ton of crownshaft stuff this year. Just think of it as opportunity cost of not milking potentially mild winters to their max potential 

[palmbrad]

Mine keeps on a ticking through cold, ice, and snow.

[DAVEinMB]

@palmbrad I may have asked this already but do you remember where you sourced this from?

[palmbrad]

Home Depot but haven’t seen any for sale there in recent years here in Summerville.

[Willis]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:30 PM, DAVEinMB said:

Welcome to the forum, glad to see more people in my neck of the woods on here. I really haven't done much for protection as the last few winters haven't been very trying. This past summer I planted a 1 gallon queen and it came through the winter without protection. I've got some mules and a pretty large Sylvestris that haven't really flinched either. They've all gotten pretty big since being planted so they're prolly going to be on their own if we get zapped in the near future

That's awesome. You are slightly warmer than we are and I am a coward when it comes to my palms.  Just afraid to take many chances with their health.....LOL. I want to get a Sylvester or a Canary, but they are so expensive. Especially if you find someone in SC that sells them. And of course a Bismark if I can talk my wife into it. If you ever come to Florence, I'll show you around the back yard area where the vast majority of my palms are at. Great chatting with ya!!!

[DAVEinMB]

15 hours ago, Willis said:

That's awesome. You are slightly warmer than we are and I am a coward when it comes to my palms.  Just afraid to take many chances with their health.....LOL. I want to get a Sylvester or a Canary, but they are so expensive. Especially if you find someone in SC that sells them. And of course a Bismark if I can talk my wife into it. If you ever come to Florence, I'll show you around the back yard area where the vast majority of my palms are at. Great chatting with ya!!!

Oh I hear ya, I'm going for the safety in numbers approach. When we do get our next cold snap hopefully some of my tender stuff will be tougher than expected. Yea the ocean helps us stay just a bit milder through the winter months. I worked in Dillon for many years and there is a noticeable difference in temperature and feel when you start moving inland. There are a few nurseries in town that sell smaller CIDP and Sylvesters and the prices are very reasonable; 15 gallon for $125. Bizzies are tougher to find but Evergreen keeps a few on hand and they aren't bad price wise either; iirc a 30 gallon was $375 (don't quote me on that tho). I'll definitely let you know if I'm up that way but in the meantime let's see some pics  - in a separate thread haha, this one is becoming hijacked

[KDubU]

I just planted a Bizzie in 9a and I am nervous. Surprised they survive in zone 8 at all but @palmbrad had a nice one growing.

[UK_Palms]

If this one keeps growing at the rate that it is under glass, it may have to go outside soon. This isn’t far from me and on the outskirts of south London. I wonder how hardy a Bismarckia Nobilis of this size would be? The warmest parts of central and eastern London haven’t been below -6C / 20F since 1987. It may be doable for a big specimen…

[JLM]

12 hours ago, KDubU said:

I just planted a Bizzie in 9a and I am nervous. Surprised they survive in zone 8 at all but @palmbrad had a nice one growing.

Technically any palm that tolerates the heat and humidity can grow just about anywhere in the east US. Royals can be grown in Michigan, Queens can be grown in coastal Maine. The only problem is winter, the winter temps are unsurvivable, but they can still grow in these places during summer. 

[Darius]

So just 10 mins from me a large bismarckia vs queen palm i do think the bismarckia is much more cold hardy than a queen palm -7c i cant tell if the were planted at the same time. 

[JLM]

Bismarckias can look alive for a long time after a freeze, but in reality its actually dead. I would assume that a Queen is hardier to the core than a Bismarckia.

[sonoranfans]

I think a deficient, stressed queen palm could be less cold hardy than a healthy bismarckia, and that is one sick looking queen(not counting the burn), very few leaves.  IF the bismarckia spear survived(still grey) it will be ok.  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

13 hours ago, JLM said:

Bismarckias can look alive for a long time after a freeze, but in reality its actually dead. I would assume that a Queen is hardier to the core than a Bismarckia.

In my area 9a south Houston zero queens survived palmageddon. The few bizzies that were around survived even tho I only had 50% survival rate with mine. I honestly think I could've saved the 2 that died if I had trunk cut early. The newest spear would not pull but also didn't grow. The 2 that survived showed growth right away and since shown zero sign it had gone thru palmageddon. With queens they take a very long time to get a really thick crown to make them bud hardy where as Bizzies get real thick before they really ever put on height. I may never even try a queen in my area but will always grow a Bizzie =) 

T J 

[sonoranfans]

I think that part of what we may be seeing in variable cold hardiness is the strength of a a well grown plant.  Bismarckias love heat and sunlight, not sure how well they grow in extended cool winter areas like the northern california coast.  My experience here in florida is they grow fast in heat, very fast.  My only faster palm -of any kind- in biomass is sabal causiarum.  Houston has the kind of hot season that will make them happy, wet and hot.  While I know some grow them very well in norcal, they lag in growth rate compared to hot places.  This makes me think that the ones who are strongest, really happy will be tougher in cold stress and coming back from cold injury.  I also think they dislike wet winters, particularly with heavy soils.