Florida Winter 2021-2022

[Matthew92]

Not over yet

 

 

[Aceraceae]

Isn't it a weak La Nina moving toward ENSO neutral or El Nino later this year anyway? 

Here's another cold inland SFL station near Clewiston at the skydiving Airglades airport:

https://www.pwsweather.com/station/mid/k2is 

@Walt maybe the Archbold station is reading too high. 

[Silas_Sancona]

25 minutes ago, Aceraceae said:

Isn't it a weak La Nina moving toward ENSO neutral or El Nino later this year anyway? 

 

...Maybe..  Some models suggest moving toward +/- ENSO neutral by late summer/ fall, others, like this, ..not so much,  ..at least for now..  ( From Storm Surf, in their Pacific Forecast / Long Term forecast section ) ** Note: Individual forecast model members on this graph can change daily **




We're closing in on what some forecasters refer to as the " Spring Unpredictability Barrier " where no clear signal regarding which direction it will head becomes clearer until sometime during the summer.

[chad2468emr]

Hey y’all, been a while since I was around in these parts! wanted to stop by and share some very grim photos from my back yard after last weeks temps. My yard in Waterford Lakes (East of Orlando) saw lows of 41, 34, and 34 last Saturday morning - Monday morning. Sadly, I was out of town for work and had no ability to protect my palms. Anything that was potted and not in-ground had been put inside but I knew I was gonna come home to some scorched palms and it was stressing me the entire trip. The massive red dwarf coconut I have in a pot on the south facing front of my house somehow managed to get zero damage other than the yellowing from less-than-ideal coco-temps, but I have no pictures on me. The four in the backyard I was very worried about were my teddy, kentiopsis oliviformis, my archie alex double, and a majesty. See below. The photos are grim!

Please excuse my messy and, at times, incredibly weedy mulch beds. They’ve been an ongoing project the last few months as I scape my back yard and I haven’t bothered with upkeep to make them pretty, haha. 

Teddy:

archies: 

Royal: 

 

KO:

Majesty:

[ruskinPalms]

1 hour ago, chad2468emr said:

Hey y’all, been a while since I was around in these parts! wanted to stop by and share some very grim photos from my back yard after last weeks temps. My yard in Waterford Lakes (East of Orlando) saw lows of 41, 34, and 34 last Saturday morning - Monday morning. Sadly, I was out of town for work and had no ability to protect my palms. Anything that was potted and not in-ground had been put inside but I knew I was gonna come home to some scorched palms and it was stressing me the entire trip. The massive red dwarf coconut I have in a pot on the south facing front of my house somehow managed to get zero damage other than the yellowing from less-than-ideal coco-temps, but I have no pictures on me. The four in the backyard I was very worried about were my teddy, kentiopsis oliviformis, my archie alex double, and a majesty. See below. The photos are grim!

Please excuse my messy and, at times, incredibly weedy mulch beds. They’ve been an ongoing project the last few months as I scape my back yard and I haven’t bothered with upkeep to make them pretty, haha. 

Teddy:

archies: 

Royal: 

 

KO:

Majesty:

Seems like a lot of damage for 34F. Maybe there was a lot of heavy frost on the palms?

[chad2468emr]

16 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

Seems like a lot of damage for 34F. Maybe there was a lot of heavy frost on the palms?

Oh there was definitely frost. Certain areas saw 29 just a few miles away and weather is really varied in this area, but there was definitely frost in all of them. I have several elephant ears planted that only saw leaf damage, but if it’d been below freezing they’d have wilted a lot more. Leaves that were covered by other leaves didn’t show any damage. Also my coconut would be in a lot worse shape. 

[ruskinPalms]

9 minutes ago, chad2468emr said:

Oh there was definitely frost. Certain areas saw 29 just a few miles away and weather is really varied in this area, but there was definitely frost in all of them. I have several elephant ears planted that only saw leaf damage, but if it’d been below freezing they’d have wilted a lot more. Leaves that were covered by other leaves didn’t show any damage. Also my coconut would be in a lot worse shape. 

Was around 31F according to a sensor I put out on a lawn chair open to the sky here with definite frost on the grass but not so much on the palms. My heliconias survived surprisingly. My coconuts look cold stressed but not freeze /frost burned…they have a rough life here lol. Probably should not have coconuts planted here because I’m just not sure they will ever look good even if they do survive. Adonidia did fine. I’m not sure what to say about that other than maybe adonidia is tougher than people say it is. Bottles and spindles too; they seem tougher than conventional wisdom says also. Was a lot of your stuff recently planted? I have noticed that the less established palms in the area took a little more damage. I’m most surprised to see damage on your majesty palm. They are solid 9B palms that can take some frost in my experience. 

[ruskinPalms]

And yes, there were upper 20s showing up in all directions around me so definitely variable temps in radiational freezes. 

[ruskinPalms]

All in all, I’m happy with how my yard fared during this event. Gives me hope that I will have some success over the years with 10A palms at least. That’s good enough for me 

Edited February 4, 2022 by ruskinPalms

[ruskinPalms]

Something not talked about much…winter heat. Everyone is focused on the lows. The areas near water do well with lows but they don’t get near as much day time heat as more inland areas in the winter here. I swear in 2010, that was a huge liability for cocos right near the water. Ones a bit farther inland, but not too far inland, seemed to do better overall.  Here is a quick shot to demonstrate that.

 

[ruskinPalms]

 

And then there is central inland Florida:

[ruskinPalms]

69F on the coast vs 85F inland. That has to count for something. 

[Walt]

On 2/2/2022 at 10:59 PM, Aceraceae said:

Isn't it a weak La Nina moving toward ENSO neutral or El Nino later this year anyway? 

Here's another cold inland SFL station near Clewiston at the skydiving Airglades airport:

https://www.pwsweather.com/station/mid/k2is 

@Walt maybe the Archbold station is reading too high. 

I don't understand it.  Archbold has always -- almost no exceptions -- run colder than at my place.  On January 5, 2001 Archbold tied it's all-time low of 13 degrees -- while at my house I had an open yard temperature of 22 degrees. But Archbold has a NOAA weather station, so I have to believe their readings.

Yesterday I drove around my subdivision and I saw cold damage worse than mine. I even saw frost damage on exposed Phoenix roebelenii palms. That indicates to me 25 degrees or less. My quad P. roebelenii had no damage. I also saw many, many Dypsis luetesens clumps almost totally fried. Fortunately, I have two big seeding clumps that were unharmed, but mine are growing in more protected areas, whereas the ones I saw fried were in the open. Exposer is can make all the difference.

My big green Malayan dwarf is now showing more cold/frost damage in the fronds (the trunk and meristem was protected with heating cables and insulation). My small green Malayan growing under ficus tree canopy (on a southern exposure where it still gets some sun) was unprotected and had zero cold damage.

To sum it up,  the past two cold fronts were the coldest I've experienced in at last 5-6 years.

[Walt]

1 hour ago, ruskinPalms said:

69F on the coast vs 85F inland. That has to count for something. 

After a low of 27, today the high was 86.59 degrees at 2:15 p.m. at the Sebring FAWN weather station (8 miles north of me).

I ran a temperature report just awhile ago. https://fawn.ifas.ufl.edu/

 

 

[TampaPalms]

Yes, this was the coldest I've experienced since 2018 might even rival 2018. I know my local PWS have 28 but some of the damage I've seen that is now coming out with this warm spell was like the 26 and 27° in 2018. I really wish I had a yard thermometer for this past Saturday night.  The pattern of damage makes no sense as some areas are untouched while others are showing damage. Like Seminole Heights in Tampa northwards Forest Hills. It looks like lots of the foxtails at Lowry Park zoo are showing damage when they didn't the other day.  My white birds did show noticeable damage right away but this warm spell is bringing out even more. But  along Dale Mabry and further west the royals at several shopping centers and alexander palms are showing nothing as of yet.

By the way a lot of the Saint Augustine grass is burnt. I think even if the event is marginal and heavy frost is predicted I am definitely going to try to cover more. 28° with a little frost and 28° with a lot of frost makes a lot of difference.

[ruskinPalms]

For my little piece of the world, damage on Z10 palms starts north of moccasin wallow road and east of US 301. Totally fried royals and mostly fried foxtails in Wimauma area. Sun city center looks ok with little to no damage. I haven’t been up into Riverview lately. Brandon, probably fried. 

[Walt]

4 hours ago, chad2468emr said:

Hey y’all, been a while since I was around in these parts! wanted to stop by and share some very grim photos from my back yard after last weeks temps. My yard in Waterford Lakes (East of Orlando) saw lows of 41, 34, and 34 last Saturday morning - Monday morning. Sadly, I was out of town for work and had no ability to protect my palms. Anything that was potted and not in-ground had been put inside but I knew I was gonna come home to some scorched palms and it was stressing me the entire trip. The massive red dwarf coconut I have in a pot on the south facing front of my house somehow managed to get zero damage other than the yellowing from less-than-ideal coco-temps, but I have no pictures on me. The four in the backyard I was very worried about were my teddy, kentiopsis oliviformis, my archie alex double, and a majesty. See below. The photos are grim!

Please excuse my messy and, at times, incredibly weedy mulch beds. They’ve been an ongoing project the last few months as I scape my back yard and I haven’t bothered with upkeep to make them pretty, haha. 

Teddy:

archies: 

Royal: 

 

KO:

Majesty:

If you weren't home, how do you know what the low temperature was? I've been growing palms for 24 years now and been through all kinds of freezes and frosts. I submit your low was lower than 34 degrees to cause that kind of leaf damage notwithstanding the frost/frozen dew.  I've never had that kind of damage on my zone 10 palms, and I have D. leptocheilos, royals, Arch. alex, cunn., purpurea, Kent. oliv. and many other zone 10+ palms, and none of them incurred that kind of damage from 34 degrees and frost.

If you are basing your low temperatures from a remote official weather station (even just miles away), that would be the answer. In my area, just blocks, let alone 1-2 miles distance (due to topography, lakes, urban heat island, etc.) can make all the difference.  The only temperature readings I rely on are my own. I constantly tell my wife that her temperature reading on her cell phone is not representative of our property. Hell, that temperature reading on her cell phone could be coming from a source 25 miles or more away.

[chad2468emr]

5 minutes ago, Walt said:

If you weren't home, how do you know what the low temperature was?

My thermometer records temperatures and let’s me reference them days later. 

[ruskinPalms]

Radiational freezes with frost always seem the  most variable on damage. Thermometers are prone to all kinds of problems, even official ones. That’s why in other threads I have proposed making zone maps based on empirical observations of what survives. Much harder, I know, but would be worth it in the long run….what lives, on average, 20 years at a time. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by ruskinPalms

[ruskinPalms]

1 hour ago, Walt said:

If you weren't home, how do you know what the low temperature was? I've been growing palms for 24 years now and been through all kinds of freezes and frosts. I submit your low was lower than 34 degrees to cause that kind of leaf damage notwithstanding the frost/frozen dew.  I've never had that kind of damage on my zone 10 palms, and I have D. leptocheilos, royals, Arch. alex, cunn., purpurea, Kent. oliv. and many other zone 10+ palms, and none of them incurred that kind of damage from 34 degrees and frost.

If you are basing your low temperatures from a remote official weather station (even just miles away), that would be the answer. In my area, just blocks, let alone 1-2 miles distance (due to topography, lakes, urban heat island, etc.) can make all the difference.  The only temperature readings I rely on are my own. I constantly tell my wife that her temperature reading on her cell phone is not representative of our property. Hell, that temperature reading on her cell phone could be coming from a source 25 miles or more away.

The damage on your C. oliviformis (I know, I hate it too lol) is disappointing. Makes me not want to try any Chambeyronia here…that island where they come from never, ever ever has seen a freeze or frost.  Cool and oceanic yes, but Florida friendly, no. Great for so cal though. I’m thinking Satakentia would be the best bet in Florida as a new introduction. The islands where they come from are close enough to a continental land mass to have had experienced real cold weather at some points in their evolution (during ice ages there was more land and less ocean. When was the last ice age? What were these palms doing during the last ice age?). 

[JLM]

36F right now, not sure what the high was today but it sure wasnt warm like in central and south FL. Just had a light rain shower pass over that dropped a few ice pellets.

[Walt]

12 hours ago, chad2468emr said:

My thermometer records temperatures and let’s me reference them days later. 

I would suggest your thermometer is reading too high due from being improperly located, not properly calibrated, etc. Again, I've never seen (although I'm not saying it can't happen) such a degree of damage to any species of palms you have that only saw 34 degrees ambient air temperature. Of course, the leaf surface has to be 32 degrees (or less) for frost to form, or leaf surface dew to make a change of state to ice.  I'd hate to see how your palms would look like had your low dropped to 27 degrees (in the open yard) like I had the other day.

[NickJames]

Checking in from Central Florida…

Not sure the prognosis of my royals. The center spear is still green and most of the petioles are still green - it’s just the actual foliage that got fried. 

The cocos will probably be fine because it was artificially heated. Obviously the foliage furthest from the heater is damaged but look at the difference between the cocos and royals. The propane heaters DO work at protecting palms. 
 

I am observing vast differences in my area based on many factors. 
 

I noticed a large clump of philodendron on SR 46 in Sanford is totally vanquished. @Merlyn probably knows where it is. In front of Elite Fitness just east of orange. That’s pretty shocking to me. I have also noticed considerable damage to the very common variegated arboricola shrubs depending on location. 
 

And finally, another observation: there is some sort of farm on 415 between Osteen and New Smyrna Beach that had dozens of sea breeze bamboo in rows. The bamboo is completely decimated. All foliage has died. 

[NickJames]

I’m also beginning to notice a lot of robellini damage in Osteen. 

mine looks like nothing happened. In fact it looks extremely healthy. 

[Xerarch]

7 minutes ago, NickJames said:

Checking in from Central Florida…

Not sure the prognosis of my royals. The center spear is still green and most of the petioles are still green - it’s just the actual foliage that got fried. 

The cocos will probably be fine because it was artificially heated. Obviously the foliage furthest from the heater is damaged but look at the difference between the cocos and royals. The propane heaters DO work at protecting palms. 
 

I am observing vast differences in my area based on many factors. 
 

I noticed a large clump of philodendron on SR 46 in Sanford is totally vanquished. @Merlyn probably knows where it is. In front of Elite Fitness just east of orange. That’s pretty shocking to me. I have also noticed considerable damage to the very common variegated arboricola shrubs depending on location. 
 

And finally, another observation: there is some sort of farm on 415 between Osteen and New Smyrna Beach that had dozens of sea breeze bamboo in rows. The bamboo is completely decimated. All foliage has died. 

Sorry for the potential loss there, hope they pull through, what was your ultimate low there? My in-laws don't live too far from you, they are just west of I-95 and north of 528.  The two Wunderground stations nearest their house read 27 and 29 for ultimate lows.  They're not really palm people and don't have anything more tender than a queen, but I know there is at least one coconut in their vicinity and few other tender things.

[NickJames]

16 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Sorry for the potential loss there, hope they pull through, what was your ultimate low there? My in-laws don't live too far from you, they are just west of I-95 and north of 528.  The two Wunderground stations nearest their house read 27 and 29 for ultimate lows.  They're not really palm people and don't have anything more tender than a queen, but I know there is at least one coconut in their vicinity and few other tender things.

My PWS -which you can see in the very far right of my photo - recorded 22-23 the first night, with light frost. 30 the second night with heavy frost. 

[Xerarch]

1 hour ago, NickJames said:

My PWS -which you can see in the very far right of my photo - recorded 22-23 the first night, with light frost. 30 the second night with heavy frost. 

Oh man that's brutal, glad you were able to heat the coconut, and now that I see those numbers I'm pretty sure I've seen posts where you had already listed those lows.

[chad2468emr]

14 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

… C. oliviformis …. 

C. oliviformis??? I’ve been out of the loop but did I miss a species reclassification?! 

[kinzyjr]

7 minutes ago, chad2468emr said:

C. oliviformis??? I’ve been out of the loop but did I miss a species reclassification?! 

I think we're all having a difficult time with this one:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/70784-new-chambeyronia-species/

[chad2468emr]

18 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

I think we're all having a difficult time with this one:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/70784-new-chambeyronia-species/

I don’t like change. 

[NickJames]

I have several errands to run today so I am out and about, and I am getting a better look at some damage. There are cold damaged queen palms in Deltona. I know there was one personal WeatherStation in Deltona that recorded 20° has reported on WFTV… Honestly, judging by the damage, it may have slipped into the teens in a few pockets in deltona. 

[JLM]

1 hour ago, NickJames said:

I have several errands to run today so I am out and about, and I am getting a better look at some damage. There are cold damaged queen palms in Deltona. I know there was one personal WeatherStation in Deltona that recorded 20° has reported on WFTV… Honestly, judging by the damage, it may have slipped into the teens in a few pockets in deltona. 

Wow. Ill be posting damage pics at some point on this site whenever i get my tablet charged. Backyard Queen has burn on every frond to some extent.

[sonoranfans]

On 2/4/2022 at 12:12 PM, ruskinPalms said:

Seems like a lot of damage for 34F. Maybe there was a lot of heavy frost on the palms?

Just a few miles west of parrish we saw as low as 34F, grass was frost burned in the open lots behind me but my yard which is separated by a 25' wooded strip has canopy so no frost.  With a few warm days this week my C. Macrocarpa opened up a new leaf.  

[Merlyn]

7 hours ago, NickJames said:

I noticed a large clump of philodendron on SR 46 in Sanford is totally vanquished. @Merlyn probably knows where it is. In front of Elite Fitness just east of orange. That’s pretty shocking to me. I have also noticed considerable damage to the very common variegated arboricola shrubs depending on location.

And finally, another observation: there is some sort of farm on 415 between Osteen and New Smyrna Beach that had dozens of sea breeze bamboo in rows. The bamboo is completely decimated. All foliage has died.

I don't know that particular clump of Philodendron, but I found it on Google Maps.  I have a clump about that size that is roughly 50% burnt.  It's not quite as badly burned as the 2009-2010 winter, which completely defoliated several giant clusters in my yard.  They all grew back, but looked pretty scraggly for a couple of months. 

That's surprising on Seabreeze, it is supposed to be 18F hardy!  That definitely supports the ~20F temperatures, with frost I could see some serious damage there.  My boos are about half okay and half defoliated.  Chungii, Cornigera, Asian Lemon, Seabreeze, Oldhamii, Pervariabilis x Daii, Tuldoides "Swollen Internode," Bambusoides "Zen Grey," and Minor Amoenus all skated through 24-25F with no or minimal damage.  D. Latiflorus, Maroochy, Hamiltonii and Guangxiensis all took some damage, but no more than 50% defoliation.  On the other hand, two Lako, Vulgaris Wamin, Vulgaris Vittata, Brandisii "Black," Longliensis, Maximuslamina, and G. "Bali White Stripe." are completely defoliated and will probably lose some canes.  Hopefully they'll all bounce back!

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Just a few miles west of parrish we saw as low as 34F, grass was frost burned in the open lots behind me but my yard which is separated by a 25' wooded strip has canopy so no frost.  With a few warm days this week my C. Macrocarpa opened up a new leaf.  

Man, that red.  That’s nice.  I’ve got four youngsters and the leaves are so variable…. Maroon, pinkish, dull rust colored, each opens a different kind.  Nice KOs also!  

[Estlander]

Now that a few days have passed since the freeze,    some more damage has become apparent on my tender stuff.  Nothing catastrophic, just cosmetic. 

It wasn’t really so much the temp that did it, but frost. Everything exposed was covered in frost all night. 
I’m still on the barrier island (Santa Rosa Beach), but about 2 miles north from the beach. 
Destin and Miramar Beach(which is just a few miles west of me) stayed above freezing from looking at the temps that night, and also from the looks of everything. 
A family member that works in Destin said that when he set out that morning, his car showed 27F at 6am. at our location, and when he got to Destin 15 minutes later it was 34F. So quite a difference. 

Decided to drive around Miramar Beach and Destin today to see how everything looks. And WOW was I surprised. Even banana leaves, though a bit ragged, still look green. No damage of any kind to Bird of Paradise plants anywhere. All Ti plants looking good too.

Found some true surprises as well - Seagrapes and what look to be King palms in front of one house. Been seeing some Norfolk Island pines popping up as well.
My neighbor has one in a completely open spot that seems to have suffered absolutely no damage from this freeze and frost. 
The one in the pic below is in Miramar Beach. 
The two Pottle palms I’ve posted in this thread before are also looking good. 
Also found a pretty large Papaya plant(first pic). Most of the leaves are burnt, but there are a couple of leaves still green on it. I’m sure it will quickly grow out of it. 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Estlander

[pj_orlando_z9b]

After the warmup and 85 yesterday, more damage has appeared. I feel mine is minimal and I know I didn't experience a freeze because my red copper has all leaves. Biggest thing I noticed is all the brown grass. My lawn on the left vs a golf course in Winter Park. Coconut showing the most stress but I've seen worse here. 

[kinzyjr]

3 minutes ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

After the warmup and 85 yesterday, more damage has appeared. I feel mine is minimal and I know I didn't experience a freeze because my red copper has all leaves. Biggest thing I noticed is all the brown grass. My lawn on the left vs a golf course in Winter Park. Coconut showing the most stress but I've seen worse here.

What you have is consistent with what I saw in the I-Drive corridor today.  Some yellow and bronzed leaf ends, but nothing fatal.

[TampaPalms]

The Euro and GFS to a extend have a freeze into Central Florida the day after Valentine's day. Usually this far out statistically it is overdone so hopefully it will modify.  Because of this I am waiting on cutting my dead foliage away from my palms and birds.

Edited February 6, 2022 by TampaPalms

[NickJames]

35 minutes ago, TampaPalms said:

The Euro and GFS to a extend have a freeze into Central Florida the day after Valentine's day. Usually this far out statistically it is overdone so hopefully it will modify.  Because of this I am waiting on cutting my dead foliage away from my palms and birds.

I’m so over it, I really am. Seriously. Lol. 
 

To take the edge off my gloominess, I’m getting a couple hardier (and big) palms this week. Either Livistona Nitida or Livistona Deciphens.