Climate and Ecology of East Central Florida Observations

[kinzyjr]

4 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Notable freezes, 1989 and 2010.  Post about the size of observation, then we can make a guess whether post or pre ‘89 or ‘10 freeze.  

Do you think a spreadsheet style submission with links to the photos on the other threads (basically a checklist) would suffice?

4 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Do you folks think that these are good indicator species?  Should I add any?  Any thoughts? 

Overall, yes.  You put a lot of work into it.  Potential additions: Wodyetia bifurcata (Foxtail)

Since it is inline with this project, I think I found a few naturalized Ficus aurea on my way to a job today, but I suck at ID on figs.  What do you think?

I know they are like bears(when you see the cubs, take a look around for mom) but I don't know where the adult is yet. 

[kinzyjr]

Here is a spreadsheet to get it started.

202111060000_Jimbean_ZoneMapProjectReport.xlsx

[Jimbean]

7 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Do you think a spreadsheet style submission with links to the photos on the other threads (basically a checklist) would suffice?

Overall, yes.  You put a lot of work into it.  Potential additions: Wodyetia bifurcata (Foxtail)

Since it is inline with this project, I think I found a few naturalized Ficus aurea on my way to a job today, but I suck at ID on figs.  What do you think?

I know they are like bears(when you see the cubs, take a look around for mom) but I don't know where the adult is yet. 

Those are our native Ficus aurea!

[kinzyjr]

3 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Those are our native Ficus aurea!

Thank you.  I thought they were, but I don't have quite the eye for botany that you or @Silas_Sancona (among others) do.  These are near the Tigertown area.  By naturalized, I mean they haven't been vouchered here in Lakeland before.  The specimens vouchered in Polk County had always been in the southeast quadrant of the county around Frostproof.

[kinzyjr]

Casuarina equisetifolia (Australian Pine) ?:

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9748507,-81.9531898,3a,90y,348.81h,122.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1staq7xdcTTjZodfe5SOHz-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Silas_Sancona]

18 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Casuarina equisetifolia (Australian Pine) ?:

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9748507,-81.9531898,3a,90y,348.81h,122.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1staq7xdcTTjZodfe5SOHz-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Not sure if this would count as something you'd use in defining a more tropical area though. See the distribution map in the link to iNat. observations below.
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/62888-Casuarina-equisetifolia
 

[Jimbean]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

Casuarina equisetifolia (Australian Pine) ?:

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9748507,-81.9531898,3a,90y,348.81h,122.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1staq7xdcTTjZodfe5SOHz-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That top picture is either Casuarina glauca or Casuarina glauca x cunninghamiana

The bottom pic is Casuarina glauca

The tree on the right is a Casuarina equisetifolia

 

[Jimbean]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

Casuarina equisetifolia (Australian Pine) ?:

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9748507,-81.9531898,3a,90y,348.81h,122.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1staq7xdcTTjZodfe5SOHz-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Try this.  This is a better view of Casuarina equisetifolia

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.131128,-80.6236571,3a,75y,125.76h,77.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOEGA6DqiQ_AHYWq6fuXtZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Jimbean]

Adding an observation for the third tree species that I know of which is not vouched for Brevard, Ficus citrifolia.  I did not look too hard but I remembered seeing more years ago.  I'm doing some research into Ficus species because this specimen did not have the leaf attributes of what I remembered Ficus citrifolia having.  It is not a variation of Ficus aurea or Ficus americana judging by the fruit stems, which are longer on citrifolia but practically non-existent with aurea or americana.  There was confusion with some of the members here on Ficus species, hopefully this will provide some clarification.  I made two videos on it, which I will post on youtube and will post the links here. 

 

 

 

[kinzyjr]

14 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Adding an observation for the third tree species that I know of which is not vouched for Brevard, Ficus citrifolia.  I did not look too hard but I remembered seeing more years ago.  I'm doing some research into Ficus species because this specimen did not have the leaf attributes of what I remembered Ficus citrifolia having.  It is not a variation of Ficus aurea or Ficus americana judging by the fruit stems, which are longer on citrifolia but practically non-existent with aurea or americana.  There was confusion with some of the members here on Ficus species, hopefully this will provide some clarification.  I made two videos on it, which I will post on youtube and will post the links here. 

Nice work on the videos.  Seems like the Ficus citrifolia leaf is a bit smaller (Shortleaf Fig) and with less prominent veins in the leaf from the photo you took, but you make a good point when you say that the one you found doesn't have the attributes you remember.  I did a search after watching your video to see what I could glean from other sources and the leaf does look a lot different (more prominent veins, etc.):

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FR328

Took a little hike to see if I could find the parent for the Ficus aurea volunteers the other day, but couldn't find any in a reasonable amount of time.  There's a lot of acreage to cover, so who knows where the seeds might have come from or if they even came from the same general area.  Lake Parker Park is pretty pristine as far as maintaining the old oak and cypress swamp look of Lakeland before we paved over it.  The only two other Ficus aurea I know of in Lakeland are currently in my yard, but those weren't planted by a bird.

[Jimbean]

10 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Nice work on the videos.  Seems like the Ficus citrifolia leaf is a bit smaller (Shortleaf Fig) and with less prominent veins in the leaf from the photo you took, but you make a good point when you say that the one you found doesn't have the attributes you remember.  I did a search after watching your video to see what I could glean from other sources and the leaf does look a lot different (more prominent veins, etc.):

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FR328

Took a little hike to see if I could find the parent for the Ficus aurea volunteers the other day, but couldn't find any in a reasonable amount of time.  There's a lot of acreage to cover, so who knows where the seeds might have come from or if they even came from the same general area.  Lake Parker Park is pretty pristine as far as maintaining the old oak and cypress swamp look of Lakeland before we paved over it.  The only two other Ficus aurea I know of in Lakeland are currently in my yard, but those weren't planted by a bird.

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Photo.aspx?id=19205

When I go back I'll see about finding more specimens.  I'm positive this is Ficus citrifolia judging by the fruit and leaf stems.  There seems to be variability in leaf forms of this species which makes it a bit tricky, but after looking at dozens of pictures I'm confident it's citrifolia. 

Typically the leaves of citrifolia are larger and have a crease at the base, and are broader than aurea.  Apparently however the leaves can also be smaller and rounded at the base as well, but the fruit stems are always longer than that of aurea, from all of the pictures I have seen of several Ficus spp.  See pictures below for a comparison of my observation, with vouched observations of the following species. 

[Jimbean]

The following is a short list of trees and shrubs that I can recall seeing in the following tropical hardwood forest.  This list is not fully exhaustive.  I can provide pictures and videos of many of these upon request.  

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3593
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2172
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=760
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=736
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=727
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=1952
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=390
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2182
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3579
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3791
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2807
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3264
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2831
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=860
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=954
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2466
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=1940
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3386
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3621
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3811
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3783
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2811
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3904
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3620
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3926
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=639
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2186
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=52
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2664
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=624
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3285
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3476
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2026
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3891
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2804

[kinzyjr]

@Jimbean An interesting crosswalk from the standard USDA system to your own personal rating system.

Happened to notice Ennio Morricone's The Ecstacy of Gold on one of your captures.  You have good taste in music as well as in tropical hardwoods.

[Jimbean]

Next project I want to do, if I have time is to figure what's going on with climate data in Brevard.  First thing I want to point out is that the Melbourne weather station has not always been where it is at today.

https://www.weather.gov/mlb/office_history

 

"December 1988 - Construction of new NWS Weather Forecast Office (WFO) at Melbourne Regional Airport begins.

April 1989 - Meteorologist In Charge reports for duty. Staff of one."

 

This is a bit problematic since the exact location of past data is important. 

[Jimbean]

More specimens that I want to list:

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3084

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2789

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2836

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2180&display=photos

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3582

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=606

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2034

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3620

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2395  (Not vouched for Brevard)

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2815

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=627

 

[Jimbean]

Downtown Melbourne this morning.  Tons of zone 10 palms, none appear to be pre-89.  There were a number of pre-2010 coconut palms, almost all the royals looked neglected.  Lots of large ficus, mangos, gumbo limbos, plumaria, etc.  Also a lot of recent plantings of Adonidia, Veitchia, and Ptychosperma.

[RedRabbit]

14 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Downtown Melbourne this morning.  Tons of zone 10 palms, none appear to be pre-89.  There were a number of pre-2010 coconut palms, almost all the royals looked neglected.  Lots of large ficus, mangos, gumbo limbos, plumaria, etc.  Also a lot of recent plantings of Adonidia, Veitchia, and Ptychosperma.

I was thinking, it seems like downtown Melbourne and downtown Sarasota should have very similar climates. Sarasota looks a lot more tropical though so I’m not sure if it’s warmer or if the people of Melbourne just aren’t taking full advantage of their climate.

Edited August 8, 2022 by RedRabbit

[Jimbean]

Edit

Edited August 8, 2022 by Jimbean

[Jimbean]

8 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I was thinking, it seems like downtown Melbourne and downtown Sarasota should have very similar climates. Sarasota looks a lot more tropical though so I’m not sure if it’s warmer or if the people of Melbourne just aren’t taking full advantage of their climate.

I haven't been to Sarasota in a long time so I don't know how it compares with what is growing in Melbourne.  I'm not taking exhaustive photos of any location either.  I can possibly provide photos on request if you want to see a specific species. 

Perhaps @kinzyjr can do a side by side comparison.  I want to say though that the Melbourne station switched locations in the late summer of 1989; the exact locations of the stations will make an impact on minimum temperature data.

[Jimbean]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:48 PM, kinzyjr said:

Here is a spreadsheet to get it started.

202111060000_Jimbean_ZoneMapProjectReport.xlsx 13.97 kB · 22 downloads

Check out Sheet 2

202111060000_Jimbean_ZoneMapProjectReport.xlsx

[kinzyjr]

13 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Check out Sheet 2

Nice work on the second sheet.  It shows a marked difference in viability with some species.

14 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Perhaps @kinzyjr can do a side by side comparison.  I want to say though that the Melbourne station switched locations in the late summer of 1989; the exact locations of the stations will make an impact on minimum temperature data.

The Melbourne WFO has moved a few times.  The move in 1989 might have been to a location with lower readings since it moved NW above the airport from down near FIT.

The official Latitude and Longitude coordinates have changed more often.

This is the relocation you mentioned approximated on a map.

For a side-by-side comparison of data in the Melbourne and Sarasota areas, please download and view the attached spreadsheet.  The sheet has some background fill for rows that will be helpful in the analysis.  Looking at record lows, you have to add the Bradenton stations in to get an accurate comparison since the Sarasota stations do not have records for the 1980s freezes.  Once you do this, Sarasota/Bradenton comes in at 20F and Melbourne at 19F - within the margin of error for a Davis Vantage Pro 2 weather station.  The average annual lows are pretty close for the stations with the most data.  When adjusted for the number of years records were kept, the LOWS UNDER X and HIGHS UNDER X categories are within respectable tolerances.  They appear to be roughly equivalent according to the metrics currently available.

Others may draw different conclusions based on their interpretation of the data.

202208082235_KMLB_KSRQ_compare.xlsx

[Jimbean]

Bradenton and Melbourne average almost exactly the same.

[RedRabbit]

2 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Bradenton and Melbourne average almost exactly the same.

I think that reinforces the notion I mentioned earlier about Melbourne and Sarasota being about the same. I’m guessing the data is from the Bradenton-Sarasota Airport which is really closer to Sarasota than Bradenton. 
Bradenton itself is quite a bit warmer thanks to Tampa Bay. There are numerous pre-80s royals with no scarring and maybe a few pre-80s coconuts even. 

[Jimbean]

Walking around a parking lot in Melbourne

[Jimbean]

Here are some palms I took pictures of in and around the Avenues mall in Veria.  There were also a good number of foxtails, royals, clumping fishtails and Dypsis lutescens.  The Adonidia palms had scars on their trunks, possibly suggesting that they are pre-2010 planted.  Unlike in downtown Melbourne, the royals here were in much better shape.

 

@Sandy Loam

There is a picture of Veitchia species, this was located in Veira just west of I-95

[__nevii]

Hearing "east-central Florida" reminds me of the fact that there is actually a unique ecotype of "tulip poplar" that grows in the area. It has pneumatophores, and other physiologies adapted for warm, wet climates, and can even remain tropical evergreen in mild enough winters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liriodendron_tulipifera#East_Central_Florida_ecotype

[Jimbean]

9 hours ago, __nevii said:

Hearing "east-central Florida" reminds me of the fact that there is actually a unique ecotype of "tulip poplar" that grows in the area. It has pneumatophores, and other physiologies adapted for warm, wet climates, and can even remain tropical evergreen in mild enough winters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liriodendron_tulipifera#East_Central_Florida_ecotype

I knew there were a couple of them growing around UCF but I did not know that they were a unique ecotype. 

[__nevii]

10 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I knew there were a couple of them growing around UCF but I did not know that they were a unique ecotype. 

I kind of want to see both versions growing side by side to have a good view of the differences.

Also, it might be possible to try breadfruit trees in areas of Central Florida as well, at least along the coast if not inland — I know that they are ultratropicals, but some ratings state that they are good so far you have USDA 11 temps and above.

[Jimbean]

38 minutes ago, __nevii said:

Also, it might be possible to try breadfruit trees in areas of Central Florida as well, at least along the coast if not inland — I know that they are ultratropicals, but some ratings state that they are good so far you have USDA 11 temps and above.

The best bet is of course Melbourne Beach or South Hutchinson Island. 

There was a pritchardia species, a few feet tall, growing at a residence near downtown Melbourne, and I believe most pritchardia species are zone 11A

 

[kinzyjr]

35 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

The best bet is of course Melbourne Beach or South Hutchinson Island. 

There was a pritchardia species, a few feet tall, growing at a residence near downtown Melbourne, and I believe most pritchardia species are zone 11A

There are a few Pritchardia that are more cold-tolerant.  A juvenile Pritchardia martii was growing well at Lake Wire until it was stolen.

[__nevii]

@Jimbean @kinzyjr

By "breadfruit", I was referring to (artocarpus altilis). I apologize for the lack of clear wording.