Help Identify 2 Palm Seeds

[Hyde]

Hey Guys, A few months ago I collected some seeds from an Island in Germany called Mainau, in the Bodensea (Lake Constance) Which has some nice palms everywhere. It better be winter hardy as it gets cold here for a few months.

Now, I need some help identifying these 2 palm seeds.

I believe the small black ones on the right of this picture are Trachycarpus Fortunei Variety?  The bigger ones on the left...I was suspecting if they could be Bismarks or T. wagnerianus  or something? The fruit was red and much bigger as you see. Just wondering as I have been germinating them inside the house, heated floor and dark corners out of sight behind or under furniture work wonders.

Thanks!

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Hyde

[Scott W]

None of those are Bismarck, as Bismarck seeds are roughly the size of a golf ball.

[Hyde]

Can you identify what these are then?

[PalmatierMeg]

My guess is that they are all of Trachycarpus genus but which species I can't say - I can't grow Trachies and have never seen mature ones. I do know that Trachies have naturalized in Switzerland and other places in Central Europe so the lake area where you collected them likely has a naturalized population. I suggest you germinate them to see what you get and maybe someone here can name them. Just be sure not to subject them to high temps from heating mats, etc. Trachies prefer cooler household temps as they are temperate palms.

[Fusca]

8 hours ago, Hyde said:

Now, I need some help identifying these 2 palm seeds.

I believe the small black ones on the right of this picture are Trachycarpus Fortunei Variety?  The bigger ones on the left...I was suspecting if they could be Bismarks or T. wagnerianus  or something? The fruit was red and much bigger as you see.

Scott is correct - the seeds are much too small for Bismarckia.  Meg is also correct - the seeds on the right are definitely Trachycarpus, but can't be sure what species.  I think fortunei, wagnerianus and princeps look the same with purplish/black fruit - I've never seen other species of Trachycarpus but don't know of any with red fruit as you described.  Do you have any photos of the palms?  Were they both fan palms (palmate)?  The ones on the left don't look like they are palm seeds from a cold hardy palm.  My first thought was Butia which are pinnate (can have red colored fruit and shape/size seems right) but I don't see the 3 holes that are typical of Butia.  Chamaerops often have red fruit and are about the size of the seeds on the left but the shape doesn't look right to me as they tend to be more round than oval.  Photos of the mother palms would help a lot.

[Hyde]

16 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Scott is correct - the seeds are much too small for Bismarckia.  Meg is also correct - the seeds on the right are definitely Trachycarpus, but can't be sure what species.  I think fortunei, wagnerianus and princeps look the same with purplish/black fruit - I've never seen other species of Trachycarpus but don't know of any with red fruit as you described.  Do you have any photos of the palms?  Were they both fan palms (palmate)?  The ones on the left don't look like they are palm seeds from a cold hardy palm.  My first thought was Butia which are pinnate (can have red colored fruit and shape/size seems right) but I don't see the 3 holes that are typical of Butia.  Chamaerops often have red fruit and are about the size of the seeds on the left but the shape doesn't look right to me as they tend to be more round than oval.  Photos of the mother palms would help a lot.

I have this link of the Palm House where the following palms are kept. I am certain the black seeds are Trachycarpus but the other big one with rather harsh bark and such which had rather big red fruits and looked kinda Trachycarpus is confusing. You see I have Trachycarpus Wagneriaus seeds here that I am germinating and they look very different, a bit bigger than regular bean shaped Fortunei but different. I wish I had photos. But I think it has to be one of the ones below.

 

Link: https://www.mainau.de/en/attraction-detail/attraktion/palmenhaus.html

It says...

Here are some of the species that you can discover:

• Phoenix canariensis (Canary Island date palm)
• Phoenix dactylifera (Date palm)
• Phoenix rupicola (Cliff date palm)
• Phoenix reclinata (Senegal date palm)
• Phoenix roebelenii (Pigmy date palm)
• Sabal palmetto (Palmetto palm)
• Washingtonia robusta (Mexican fan palm)
• Brahea armata (Blue hespar palm )
• Livistona australis (Australian fan palm)
• Livistona chinensis (Chinese fan palm)
• Bismarckia nobilis (Bismarck palm)
• Trachycarpus fortunei (Chusan palm )
• Trachycarpus wagneriana (Wagner’s windmill palm)
• Chamaedorea elegans (Palour palm)
• Areca catechu (Betel nut palm)

 

I wonder if it is this Brahea armata palm? It looks rather similar..

The seeds looked similar but a bit more dark yellow red perhaps,

Looking here: https://www.palmerasyjardines.com/en/species-catalogue/palm-brahea-edulis/

 

Below is a recent seedling of the Trachycarpus in the bag that have sprouted (little black seeds that look like a bean) and I put them in a larger coffee cup pot..

 

 

On the second picture where you see two plants in such coffee pots (the one on the left (smaller) is Trachycarpus Wagneriaus that I have also grown

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Hyde

[Fusca]

@Hyde, I have not seen Brahea armata look orange or red, but the photo you posted is Brahea edulis.  Still the seeds of Brahea edulis and Brahea armata are typically rounder like the photo of Brahea edulis here:

Sometimes armata seeds are a bit more oval shaped but they aren't as dark or elongated as yours.  One of the longer seeds you have resembles a Phoenix dactylifera seed but it would have a slit running from one end to the other which I don't see.  These fruits can be orange or reddish in color.  Here is an example:

Phoenix palms are dioecious so you need a male and a female to produce viable seed.  If what you have is from a Phoenix palm (which are pinnate and not palmate) you likely have a hybrid with one of the other Phoenix palms that you listed - no way to tell until you sprout it.

[Hyde]

Thats some nice information @Fusca

I do doubt they are Phoenix mainly because them being more on the rounder side than the oval and the slit running in the middle. A hybrid is not out of the question as these palms are near each other.
That said, looking at the fruits and the seeds, Has anyone here considered them to be Livistona chinensis AKA Chinese Fan Palm? Which is also on the list,

 

 

And I remember the fruit looking more like this

 

Right now I have labeled it as the unknown palm seeds with the few probabilities. Apart from that, I will just see how the Germination process comes and then we will be able to identify for sure one day.

[Hyde]

I may have a picture of the actual seed, I took when I bought it back!

[Jimhardy]

Trachycarpus

 

the other seeds look like Butia but I guess that was not an option.

[Hyde]

33 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

Trachycarpus

 

the other seeds look like Butia but I guess that was not an option.

Hi  there, Yes so  the small black seeds are Trachycarpus, But I am talking about the bigger ones inside that cocos fruit that is the one I am trying to identify in the last photo.

[Jimhardy]

The non Trachy seeds don't look like seeds of any of the palms

on the list that I could tell...thats why I was guessing possibly Butia on those.

[Hyde]

Okay, So I managed to get some pictures from the internet... This is the Palm house, there are palms there everywhere but the Trachy seeds were from the streets actually. While these Butia looking ones were from the inside... Have a look at the photos, see something that maybe it? It was one of the ones in the rear maybe 7-10 foot high..   (no I am not 7 foot tall)