Florida is ditching palm trees - article

[Chester B]

Blasphemy!  Just kidding. There’s got to be a good balance here I’m sure. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/weather/weather-trees-adapt-climate-change/index.html

 

[oasis371]

Ironically, relatively few of the species of palms currently grown in Florida are actually native, most were introduced from elsewhere.  

Just out of curiosity, is there anyplace on earth where palms are the dominate group of plants,  Maybe in some desert areas where they tap into deep aquifers? I've always thought of them as either emergents or understory species. 

Interesting article, thanks for posting it.

Edited October 23, 2021 by oasis371

[NOT A TA]

Their comparison of a Thrinax radiata to a Quercus virginiana is a real mismatch in mature plant size when used to compare how much carbon they can remove from the atmosphere. It would be interesting to see what the scale would look like if they used enough of the Thrinax to equal the size of the Quercus.

I noticed they fail to mention the relative maintenance costs involved between the different types of plants. When big dicots like the quercus get old they get very expensive to maintain and then remove when they become a liability. Then when it is time to remove them there's always people who seem to have some type of emotional attachment to them and argue to keep them even though they've become a liability.

I'm actually removing one of the palms and planting a couple ornamental dicot trees in my front yard very soon.  I've grown them from seed just because I think the percentage of palms in my neighborhood is too high and I don't want the mess and maintenance of the typical fruit trees grown here. Since all the neighbors have them I can get all the free Mangos, Jack fruit, Lychee, Papayas, etc. I want because they produce a lot more fruit than each household can consume.

[96720]

I would love to see a mango tree that could produce more mangoes than I could consume 

[Dunedin Steve]

Only CNN could come up with such crap-ola..!

[Steve the palmreader]

3 hours ago, Chester B said:

Blasphemy!  Just kidding. There’s got to be a good balance here I’m sure. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/weather/weather-trees-adapt-climate-change/index.html

 

 CNN ? Fake news . No crisis here. LOL

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Geniuses are planting Ash, Elm and Sycamore in Miami Beach.  Yup, that will work.

[oasis371]

"Geniuses are planting Ash, Elm and Sycamore in Miami Beach.  Yup, that will work."

That is not what was reported..., except in certain fake news sources. Believe it or not, there are actual real trees that do grow in the tropics.

Whatev', tis the season of the witch.,

Edited October 23, 2021 by oasis371

[Jimbean]

2 hours ago, Jerry@TreeZoo said:

Geniuses are planting Ash, Elm and Sycamore in Miami Beach.  Yup, that will work.

Actually American elms and sycamores could probably do okay. 

[Looking Glass]

I love palms, but it’s night and day the services palms provide, compared to shade trees.   

When you are on the streets, where it’s a humid high of 95F during the day, and a low of 85F at night for months and months, those big canopies with a single ground anchor make a huge difference.   Even a ton of big palms don’t create very much shade, especially as they get tall.  

Across from my driveway are three 75 foot Royals, and on left are a group of two 50 foot Foxtails and a bigger Bismarck.  All of these provide almost no shade except directly under them at high noon.  

I love a good Gumbo Limbo, Live Oak, or even a little Silver Buttonwood.  

I love the exotic feel, and look of palms.  And I love their storm tolerance (not you, queen).  They make great accents and groupings, and have great utility when used properly.   I think they have their place just about everywhere, but there needs to be a lot more shade trees around the streets here.   I just hope they pick the most storm tolerant tropical ones.  

Edited October 24, 2021 by Looking Glass

[Silas_Sancona]

11 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

I love palms, but it’s night and day the services palms provide, compared to shade trees.   

When you are on the streets, where it’s a humid high of 95F during the day, and a low of 85F at night for months and months, those big canopies with a single ground anchor make a huge difference.   Even a ton of big palms don’t create very much shade, especially as they get tall.  

Across from my driveway are three 75 foot Royals, and on left are a group of two 50 foot Foxtails and a bigger Bismarck.  All of these provide almost no shade except directly under them at high noon.  

I love a good Gumbo Limbo, Live Oak, or even a little Silver Buttonwood.  

I love the exotic feel, and look of palms.  And I love their storm tolerance (not you, queen).  They make great accents and groupings, and have great utility when used properly.   I think they have their place just about everywhere, but there needs to be a lot more shade trees around the streets here.   I just hope they pick the most storm tolerant tropical ones.  

Agree w/ you and other related thoughts.. Balance is key..  While i'm not a huge fan of them, it is nice seeing some big, old Mex. fans over skylines, let alone admiring how they typically don't snap in high winds ( back in California, at least ). By the same token, I'm a tree guy, esp if it flowers or offers up something interesting to admire.  Would love driving up to my house and seeing stuff like Coccothrinax, a couple groups of some fat and bushy Sabal, or Pseudophoenix mixed among some towering Gumbo Limbo, Allspice, and / or any number of exotic flowering things..  Also appreciate a few evergreens, though most won't tolerate extreme heat.

Anyone who would plant just palms ..and no trees will regret it in short order here in the desert.. I'd have lost pretty much everything i have, inc. numerous Cacti / etc succulent- type things w/ out having the Mesquite out back.. That said, will never plant those from S. America.. typically shallow rooted, grow extremely fast which makes them prone to storm / wind damage.  Native ' Squites ..and one from Central Mexico, can get by w/ pretty much no water, have very deep roots ( which actually bring water to the surface in times of need ) and are usually quite stable.

I get that they aren't for everyone though.. Again, balance is key..

[Chester B]

FYI this article was from multiple news sources. I just posted from a mainstream not some unfamiliar one. News agencies seem to share their stories so the origin of the story I can’t say

Around here it seems there is less of a focus on native species and more of an emphasis on climate adapted plants. Due to the extra heat and dryness that has been increasing over the years many native plants are having issues coping and we have many species that are predicted to be extirpated in the near future. We are leveraging the plants found to the south of us from California and Arizona. Many of them do surprisingly well. 

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

1 hour ago, Jimbean said:

Actually American elms and sycamores could probably do okay. 

Sycamores do pretty well in Broward County but I would be surprised if they thrived in Miami Beach, especially in salt-windy and salt water inundated conditions.  Elms, not a chance.  Remember, we are not talking about one or two squeaking by on a bet, we are talking about thriving reliably long term.

[D Palm]

That article is a load of…someone who obviously doesn’t live in Florida.

[ZPalms]

sidewalk crack washies are laughing 

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, Jerry@TreeZoo said:

Sycamores do pretty well in Broward County but I would be surprised if they thrived in Miami Beach, especially in salt-windy and salt water inundated conditions.  Elms, not a chance.  Remember, we are not talking about one or two squeaking by on a bet, we are talking about thriving reliably long term.

Sycamores also get massive in time, and can have issues w/ various insects when stressed. In California, even our native Sycamore look sorrowful toward the end of summer in many places.  Never understood why any municipalities would consider planting these ..or any Riparian habitat - type tree in places where they're destined to die, or look awful and not do a thing to provide decent shade ..a majority of the time anyway. These want space, not your typical cutout in a sidewalk.  Same w/ Ficus.

[Jimbean]

10 hours ago, Jerry@TreeZoo said:

Sycamores do pretty well in Broward County but I would be surprised if they thrived in Miami Beach, especially in salt-windy and salt water inundated conditions.  Elms, not a chance.  Remember, we are not talking about one or two squeaking by on a bet, we are talking about thriving reliably long term.

Well Miami Beach is a totally different story.  I was thinking they were talking about downtown Miami and vicinity; I did not read the article. 

Inland sycamores and American elms would probably do okay.  American elm grows naturally in Palm Beach county. 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3530

[bubba]

If CO2 emissions create global warming, why did NASA‘s data show that the planet’s temperature increased by .03 Celsius in 2020, more than double the average increase since 1920? This during the pandemic year when worldwide CO2 emissions dropped by 7%, led by the US with a 12% decline. How and why do the experts that dominate government, big business, big media, universities and school systems (Big) insist that “science” establishes beyond doubt that CO2 emissions are raising global temperatures and that a warmer earth will be catastrophic?

No one disagrees that our planet is experiencing a time in which temperatures are rising. No one disagrees that our planet has experienced times in which temperatures have risen or fallen historically (ice age, heat age). The question is why the elimination of CO2 has been universally accepted by the “Experts of Big” to immediately halt a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Separately, I fully agree that Florida should not be palm tree, palm tree, palm tree. But why would our canopy large trees not be the live oaks and ficus and others that are indigenous or from other regions that harmonize with our climate and are not invasive? Are we mandated to grow deciduous trees (Sycamores) that may survive in our area but are out of character?

 

 

 

[Scott W]

2 hours ago, bubba said:

No one disagrees that our planet is experiencing a time in which temperatures are rising. No one disagrees that our planet has experienced times in which temperatures have risen or fallen historically (ice age, heat age). The question is why the elimination of CO2 has been universally accepted by the “Experts of Big” to immediately halt a naturally occurring phenomenon.

 

Bingo!

In addition to that, what needs to happen is stop clear cutting hundreds of acres of trees to install solar farms.  Instead, mandate business incorporate solar into their building plan when putting up new facilities, such as every gas station gas pump canopy, roof tops, etc.

More than one way to reduce the carbon footprint....

[D Palm]

@Scott W I have seen so much wetlands cleared for solar farming along I-10 and I-75. Has anyone ever thought the solar activity from this fireball in the sky may be the rise and fall of norms in respective seasons or is that flat-earther thinking? 

I despise Sycamore leaf litter in the fall…for many reasons. The nearest Sycamore trees are 1/4 - 1/2 mile from me but always find my yard. 

[ruskinPalms]

Sycamores don’t do well in my neighborhood. They seem stressed from about June on and then never really go deciduous like they do up north, just a kinda slow sad loss of leaves. Like bubba said, why in the world wouldn’t they plant native shade trees instead? I do think that shade trees are great and necessary. A lot of the people in my neighborhood have pulled out their oak trees and planted palms instead and while of course I like the look of the palms, it gets really hot here during the summer in the sun when I jog around the neighborhood. That being said, I am guilty of ripping out my oak tree and planting a bismarckia in its spot. The bismarkia fills up my entire front yard and does provide shade. If I had left the oak, I would have serious problems with limbs falling on my house and with roots destroying the sidewalk and driveway - my front yard is too small for an oak tree and so are most of my neighbors’ yards so I guess there is no perfect solution. I think if I were to do my front yard again, I’d plant a red maple and then underplant with blue form of Serenoa repens.  

[CodyORB]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:44 PM, NOT A TA said:

Their comparison of a Thrinax radiata to a Quercus virginiana is a real mismatch in mature plant size when used to compare how much carbon they can remove from the atmosphere. It would be interesting to see what the scale would look like if they used enough of the Thrinax to equal the size of the Quercus.

I noticed they fail to mention the relative maintenance costs involved between the different types of plants. When big dicots like the quercus get old they get very expensive to maintain and then remove when they become a liability. Then when it is time to remove them there's always people who seem to have some type of emotional attachment to them and argue to keep them even though they've become a liability.

I'm actually removing one of the palms and planting a couple ornamental dicot trees in my front yard very soon.  I've grown them from seed just because I think the percentage of palms in my neighborhood is too high and I don't want the mess and maintenance of the typical fruit trees grown here. Since all the neighbors have them I can get all the free Mangos, Jack fruit, Lychee, Papayas, etc. I want because they produce a lot more fruit than each household can consume.

Jack fruit as far up as Delray Beach?? Woah! I'd love to hear more on that!

[kinzyjr]

2 hours ago, CodyORB said:

Jack fruit as far up as Delray Beach?? Woah! I'd love to hear more on that!

Hollis Gardens is a good bit further up than Delray Beach for sure and has Jackfruit: https://www.facebook.com/LakelandGov/videos/4116086461817319/

[JLM]

Saw a lot of recently planted Bismarckia along I-4, along with these ive seen Sabal palmetto recently planted. A planting of mules just off the I-95 exit for the International Speedway in Daytona.

[NOT A TA]

5 hours ago, CodyORB said:

Jack fruit as far up as Delray Beach?? Woah! I'd love to hear more on that!

The general rule of thumb here is if a neighbor has a fruit tree with branches overhanging the fence into your yard you can cut the branches  at the fence line or let it fruit and enjoy the fruit. I have no fruit trees anymore because they make a big mess and attract animals I don't want in my yard but always get fruit, THEN cut back the branches! ahahaha

[palmsOrl]

On 10/23/2021 at 8:21 PM, Jimbean said:

Actually American elms and sycamores could probably do okay. 

I am in doubt that American elms would make it in Miami Beach, however, Ulmus parviflora, the Chinese elm should do okay if it is salt tolerant.

Pop ash should thrive if salt tolerant and American Sycamore would probably survive and look haggard but not thrive in Miami Beach.

I actually saw a sickly Acer rubrum in a park in South Beach when I was there years ago.  The glades (where it is native) get significantly more chill than Miami Beach.

-Michael

[Mandrew968]

Stupidest thing I have ever heard. Get rid of your identity to replace with what? Florida is the palm state.

[Jimbean]

9 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

I am in doubt that American elms would make it in Miami Beach, however, Ulmus parviflora, the Chinese elm should do okay if it is salt tolerant.

Pop ash should thrive if salt tolerant and American Sycamore would probably survive and look haggard but not thrive in Miami Beach.

I actually saw a sickly Acer rubrum in a park in South Beach when I was there years ago.  The glades (where it is native) get significantly more chill than Miami Beach.

-Michael

For those to work you gotta get away from the beach. 

 

I seem to be getting some criticism for it, but I actually think tropical and temperate trees go together pretty well.  I like red maples with royals, or sycamores with ficus, etc.  If I wanted to go exotic in Miami, that's what I would do.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Jimbean