Palms in Tidal Flood zones

[Scott W]

Well I've read numerous threads here on Palm Talk regarding plans that like wet feet and I have a decent portion of my yard that fits the bill.

My first experiment is a Bismarck seedling, and also have some three strap leaf seedlings of Livistona benthamii that I intend to put in the same area.  Of course Acoelorrhaphe wrightii is planted in this area, also added a Sabal Domingensis and Livistona Saribus though they don't tend to get flooded but stay wet...and are doing great.

I'm thinking of putting in a couple Phoenix and testing a Beccareophoenix alfredii in the area as well.  Thoughts???

Picture of an extremely high tide...happens every couple months or with big storms.  You can see the straps of the Bismarck in there.

Picture of a big high tide.....or about two hours after the previous picture as the tide recedes.

In the above pics, where the old dock pilings are is where the rivers edge officially is....

[Merlyn]

15 minutes ago, Scott W said:

My first experiment is a Bismarck seedling, and also have some three strap leaf seedlings of Livistona benthamii that I intend to put in the same area.  Of course Acoelorrhaphe wrightii is planted in this area, also added a Sabal Domingensis and Livistona Saribus though they don't tend to get flooded but stay wet...and are doing great.

I'm thinking of putting in a couple Phoenix and testing a Beccareophoenix alfredii in the area as well.  Thoughts???

I'm guessing the biggest issue is whether the water is fresh, brackish, or salty?  In regards to Alfredii, the one growing the fastest at my place is directly downhill from a gutter downspout.  It's about 30% faster than the other 4, and the slowest is in the front yard in a kind-of-high-and-dry area.  I'd guess they would do well near water, but no idea if they'd survive if frequently inundated.

If it's warm enough there, you could consider Licuala Peltata v. Sumawongii.  They seem fine here in full sun, and would probably love the water if it's fresh.

Eric @ Leu Gardens said that Livistona Saribus loved being in swampy wet rich soil.  I think that's also true of Saribus Rotundifolia, which is apparently a swamp dweller like Licuala.

[Scott W]

Thanks for the input @Merlyn

Precisely why I put my Saribus in this area and was thinking Beccareophoenix alfredii would do well here.  Also, tides as high as the first pic are not that frequent, and tides as high as the second while not everyday happen regularly.

As for water type, it's officially brackish being it connects to the St John's River and ultimately the Atlantic Ocean, but the ocean is miles away....

All of this is experimental in hopes I can utilize this are for part of my palm jungle.    

[kinzyjr]

Might be overshooting this as far as hardiness on a few of these, but Dypsis lutescens, Caryota mitis, Allagoptera arenaria (guaranteed not to have issues with brackish water), Arenga engleri

[Scott W]

7 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Allagoptera arenaria (guaranteed not to have issues with brackish water), Arenga engleri

Had an allogoptera seedling but I think it succumbed to neglect...will have to consider the Arenga, thanks!

 

[96720]

Cat palm I have mine growing in my pond 

[Scott W]

Yeah, I saw what I recall was a cat palm at Leu Gardens growing in water.   However, this area can be full sun so I was leary of putting one there.  There's a spot between two oaks that might be a good spot.   

[Scott W]

Picture of how this area looks now, 5 hours after the first picture above.

Livistona Saribus, while not in the full flood zone, very happy near it.

[Mandrew968]

I don't think the Sabal will like the wet feet. That is if it is a real domingensis. Lots of palms will love this are-royals and Carpoxylon-Copernicia gigas...

[Scott W]

13 minutes ago, Mandrew968 said:

I don't think the Sabal will like the wet feet. That is if it is a real domingensis. Lots of palms will love this are-royals and Carpoxylon-Copernicia gigas...

The seed was given to me 6+ years ago and labelled as Domingensis, so that's what I'm going with.  Where it's at I've noted can stay wet but not saturated, and so far so good as it's been in that spot for two years now, but do know that in habitat they generally are in dryer areas.  Time will tell I guess.

I'm in Jax and have a a couple royals in the ground in some sheltered areas....maybe I move one down to this area to see how it performs.

[Mandrew968]

Owhh-Jax. I gotcha-so cold is a factor. Well go Livistona as often as you can. Nannorhops would be good for you.

[Scott W]

3 minutes ago, Mandrew968 said:

Owhh-Jax. I gotcha-so cold is a factor. Well go Livistona as often as you can. Nannorhops would be good for you.

Thanks!  just looked at the Nannorhops, interesting looking palm.  Might be worth a try if I can find one...

[kinzyjr]

47 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Thanks!  just looked at the Nannorhops, interesting looking palm.  Might be worth a try if I can find one...

Got 100 seeds coming in.  If you want a few, I'll bring them to the meeting in Hastings.

[Scott W]

19 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Got 100 seeds coming in.  If you want a few, I'll bring them to the meeting in Hastings.

Absolutely, thanks! 

[ruskinPalms]

Allagoptera arenaria seems like a perfect choice for you. I did a palmpedia deep dive on these and they seem ideal. They can take the salt and cold you may have there. And.. they look great!! These should be at the box stores here in FL haha

[Scott W]

Well crap, something or someone yanked up the Bismarck!  

Guess I'll wait until spring to plant out another one in this area.

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

Well crap, something or someone yanked up the Bismarck!  

Guess I'll wait until spring to plant out another one in this area.

In an area like that, I'd go with a larger one.  Something starting to trunk anyways.  Plus it wards off evil spirits... like squirrels

[Looking Glass]

Do Bismarcks like it wet like that or do they rot out?   I’ve got two giant ones in the neighbors yards on either side of me.  Both are planted in sandy soil.  One was never watered or irrigated even during our dry season.   It is huge.   The other gets lawn irrigation on the edge, and it is much bigger.   

[The7thLegend]

Might want to consider trying a Majesty Palm in that area.  I would think they could handle the brackish water since the'yre native to Madagascar.

[Scott W]

@kinzyjr yeah, I'm contemplating that as well.  Maybe I'll let the other seedlings mature in pot for a few years then plant them out.

@Looking Glass I've read they do perform better with more water, so again, this was an experiment.  It was doing fine until something ripped it up.

@The7thLegend I think others have said said that as well.  I'll consider it in the spring.

[Steve the palmreader]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:46 PM, Scott W said:

Picture of how this area looks now, 5 hours after the first picture above.

Livistona Saribus, while not in the full flood zone, very happy near it.

Try a royal,  

[hbernstein]

How about the quintessential native swamp palm: Sabal minor?

[Merlyn]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:44 PM, ruskinPalms said:

Allagoptera arenaria seems like a perfect choice for you. I did a palmpedia deep dive on these and they seem ideal. They can take the salt and cold you may have there. And.. they look great!! These should be at the box stores here in FL haha

That's a great idea!  I have 8 Arenaria in the ground and another 3 seedlings in pots.  They are a really neat smaller shrub-ish palm that is great with full sun, salt and cold.  My notes on cold damage are ok @ 23F in Lakeland and Orlando, several survived 1989 lows to 19-20F with severe burn, and some survived defoliation at 20F and regrew in weeks.  I wish local stores sold them too!

[sonoranfans]

16 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

Do Bismarcks like it wet like that or do they rot out?   I’ve got two giant ones in the neighbors yards on either side of me.  Both are planted in sandy soil.  One was never watered or irrigated even during our dry season.   It is huge.   The other gets lawn irrigation on the edge, and it is much bigger.   

Probably true that the site matters as much as the water.  Every plant has a dry cycle and fertilizer is only available in the wet.  But continual wetness causes obstruction in take up as well.  Oxygen keeps the chemistry of the soil balanced if it is periodically introduced.  I had two bizzies one on the drainage easement on the border with a neighbor and one bordering the street.  My neighbors irrigation waters the edge of my yard the day before my irrigations runs so either I starve my other palms or overwater the one border.  I chose the latter, and we had a really wet august in 2019, 22 days of rain that year.  Of course my irrigation was shut off.  The bizzie on the border had a notably thinner trunk but it was nearly as large as the one out front at about 23'-25' overall.  It just had a trunk about 2/3rd the thickness and was yet watered more.  To end the tory weevils attacked the one on the border and killed it in short order that september 2019.  That year both bizzies looked stressed with all the rain, but they picked the one  sitting in a low spot with the extra irrigation of the neighbors system.  I understand that plants under stress emit terpenes that in turn often attract weevils.  But they only dined on on of the palms.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

On 11/6/2021 at 3:30 PM, Scott W said:

Well I've read numerous threads here on Palm Talk regarding plans that like wet feet and I have a decent portion of my yard that fits the bill.

My first experiment is a Bismarck seedling, and also have some three strap leaf seedlings of Livistona benthamii that I intend to put in the same area.  Of course Acoelorrhaphe wrightii is planted in this area, also added a Sabal Domingensis and Livistona Saribus though they don't tend to get flooded but stay wet...and are doing great.

I'm thinking of putting in a couple Phoenix and testing a Beccareophoenix alfredii in the area as well.  Thoughts???

Picture of an extremely high tide...happens every couple months or with big storms.  You can see the straps of the Bismarck in there.

Picture of a big high tide.....or about two hours after the previous picture as the tide recedes.

In the above pics, where the old dock pilings are is where the rivers edge officially is....

I think your occasionally water logged site is probably ok for a lot of palms as well as other plants. If you are like me you learned to grow palms well and then thought it was easy and so got a little slack on the basics.  Maybe I am wrong but for me it is true. I have a suggestion.  Use a natural mulch ( not plastic or other solid fabric) like bark, straw, etc. around the existing ones,  to smother the grass, which is robbing a ton of air and nutrients from the palms. The mulch will provide a place for micro life to thrive, as they too need air and will benefit the plant.  When you plant new palms, put down a little mound of soil to plant in and mulch that. Even a small mound of one bag of soil (or bucket of native soil) and one bag of mulch will help. Your existing palms will raise themselves up into the raised ground of the broken down mulch, over time. I did this on some palms that had been growing in a lawn like yours and they took off in growth. One other benefit from the mulch is the plants are easier to mow around. 

[Scott W]

@Jeff zone 8 N.C. excellent suggestions about the mulching, and I did not realize palms would grow up into the mound.  That'll be interesting to watch and see.  Thanks.