Is there a difference in these banana plants?

[Jtee]

Ok so the nice and green one was planted in August from a cutting and looks great.

the second pic is a plantain 

the ugly one was planted in October and looks horrible.

 

at first I thought it could be the cold but my others look great. What could be wrong with my bananas in the 3rd pic?

[Xerarch]

Looks like it could be sun scald. What conditions was it in before it was planted? Maybe it was in a nice cozy shady greenhouse or something.  I'm assuming it's been getting plenty of water as that would seems the natural thing to do. The little pup on the bottom doesn't look as bad, maybe it wasn't as acclimated to the low light conditions because it was smaller at the time or maybe not there yet. 

[Jtee]

Just now, Xerarch said:

Looks like it could be sun scald. What conditions was it in before it was planted? Maybe it was in a nice cozy shady greenhouse or something.  I'm assuming it's been getting plenty of water as that would seems the natural thing to do. The little pup on the bottom doesn't look as bad, maybe it wasn't as acclimated to the low light conditions because it was smaller at the time or maybe not there yet. 

I bought it at lowes and yeah it’s been in full sun. I just noticed it start turning the colder we got. I’m in zone 8b

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, Jtee said:

Ok so the nice and green one was planted in August from a cutting and looks great.

the second pic is a plantain 

the ugly one was planted in October and looks horrible.

 

at first I thought it could be the cold but my others look great. What could be wrong with my bananas in the 3rd pic?

Chill / cold damage, imo.. 

[Xerarch]

2 minutes ago, Jtee said:

I bought it at lowes and yeah it’s been in full sun. I just noticed it start turning the colder we got. I’m in zone 8b

Ok if it didn't start turning until it got colder that's a big clue, how cold have you got? bananas fold up pretty fast below freezing, and not every variety is the same, so maybe this one is a little more tender.

[Jtee]

1 minute ago, Xerarch said:

Ok if it didn't start turning until it got colder that's a big clue, how cold have you got? bananas fold up pretty fast below freezing, and not every variety is the same, so maybe this one is a little more tender.

I think the coldest we have gotten is maybe low 40s.

I have passion fruit, avocado and dragon fruit outside in pots and only the dragon fruit is showing some cold damage. The tag on the banana said musa bajoo. 

[Fusca]

I agree with Nathan, looks like cold damage.  In humid areas frost can form in mid-upper 30's F and cause damage to sensitive plants.  I've seen bananas (not sure of specific type) defoliate in Houston around 35°.  I'm sure there are cold-hardiness differences between species.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Fusca

[UK_Palms]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:31 PM, Fusca said:

I agree with Nathan, looks like cold damage.  In humid areas frost can form in mid-upper 30's F and cause damage to sensitive plants.  I've seen bananas (not sure of specific type) defoliate in Houston around 35°.  I'm sure there are cold-hardiness differences between species.

I had frozen water droplets on the leaves of my Ensente Maurelii from a low of 33F, but no damage whatsoever. However a low of 31F a few nights later totally trashed my Musa Basjoo leaves which have now drooped and turned brown. Thankfully the Ensente Maurelii's had been dug up and overwintered before my first proper freeze. As long as the air temperature doesn't reach 32F, banana plants should be fine. Even if it causes 'frost' to form on the plant at say 35F, I don't think it will damage the actual cell structures of the plant as they would not have technically froze. It is just the water droplets freezing at a sightly higher temperature due to quicker heat loss, which then gives the appearance of 'frost' on plants or the lawn, even though it may only be 35F. Bananas should be okay right down to 32F, which is when the cells will freeze. I am just going by my own experience though with bananas here. It may be different for other people, or I may just be naive.

[JLM]

On 11/17/2021 at 12:13 PM, Jtee said:

I think the coldest we have gotten is maybe low 40s.

I have passion fruit, avocado and dragon fruit outside in pots and only the dragon fruit is showing some cold damage. The tag on the banana said musa bajoo. 

I wanna say colder than that. Its already been 37F down here with frost. Some spots nearby even had a really light freeze. You have probably had at least low 30's so far. Bananas around here look fine, but that could change Monday night with 33F in the forecast.

[Jtee]

1 hour ago, JLM said:

I wanna say colder than that. Its already been 37F down here with frost. Some spots nearby even had a really light freeze. You have probably had at least low 30's so far. Bananas around here look fine, but that could change Monday night with 33F in the forecast.

I think you are right, I think the coldest that I know of has been 37 or 38 but I don’t recall seeing anything lower than that forcasted. I’m considering digging those bananas up and getting something else. I dislike the sight of them right now. 

[Looking Glass]

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I had frozen water droplets on the leaves of my Ensente Maurelii from a low of 33F, but no damage whatsoever. However a low of 31F a few nights later totally trashed my Musa Basjoo leaves which have now drooped and turned brown. Thankfully the Ensente Maurelii's had been dug up and overwintered before my first proper freeze. As long as the air temperature doesn't reach 32F, banana plants should be fine. Even if it causes 'frost' to form on the plant at say 35F, I don't think it will damage the actual cell structures of the plant as they would not have technically froze. It is just the water droplets freezing at a sightly higher temperature due to quicker heat loss, which then gives the appearance of 'frost' on plants or the lawn, even though it may only be 35F. Bananas should be okay right down to 32F, which is when the cells will freeze. I am just going by my own experience though with bananas here. It may be different for other people, or I may just be naive.

I’ve always been puzzled by this observation, as water can’t actually freeze above the freezing temperature of water.   

What really happens is that the location of your thermometer is actually a few degrees warmer than the location of the “frost” giving the illusion of frost at temps above 32F/0C.  

The small elevation of the thermometer above the surface of frost, especially on a windless clear night, puts it in a slightly warmer area, creating the appearance that water is freezing at higher temperatures, when it is not.  

[JLM]

2 minutes ago, Jtee said:

I think you are right, I think the coldest that I know of has been 37 or 38 but I don’t recall seeing anything lower than that forcasted. I’m considering digging those bananas up and getting something else. I dislike the sight of them right now. 

I wouldnt dig them up, just let them die. If they are indeed basjoo then they will come back up from the ground in Spring. It could still do that with other varieties too im sure, but i havent really done much research into the category of bananas.

[UK_Palms]

8 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

I’ve always been puzzled by this observation, as water can’t actually freeze above the freezing temperature of water.   

What really happens is that the location of your thermometer is actually a few degrees warmer than the location of the “frost” giving the illusion of frost at temps above 32F/0C.  

The small elevation of the thermometer above the surface of frost, especially on a windless clear night, puts it in a slightly warmer area, creating the appearance that water is freezing at higher temperatures, when it is not.  

The frozen water droplets on the leaves of my Ensente Maurelii were situated about 5 foot above ground level. My thermometer is also situated around 4-5 feet above ground level too, so I suspect the temperatures were correct. If anything, the thermometer was actually running slightly warmer due to it being situated closer to the house than the Ensente's. However for the sake of argument, we will assume that they are roughly the same temperature. 

Now if I'm not mistaken, frost at temperatures above freezing (0C / 32F) is due to the moisture droplets radiating more heat than the surrounding surface area, allowing them to cool faster and drop below the surface temperature. So while the leaf may be 35F, the water droplets are 32F and capable of freezing. I'm sure there is more complex science behind it, but that is the only way I can explain the frozen water droplets on my Abyssinian banana leafs, despite there being no actual frost damage to the plant.

Basically the water droplets have a lower heat capacity than the surrounding plant foliage, allowing them to cool quicker and freeze at higher temps. Hence why the dew on your lawn will freeze at a temperature of 36-38F, because it cools quicker than the foliage that the moisture is sitting on. At least I think that is the case...

 

[Looking Glass]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

The frozen water droplets on the leaves of my Ensente Maurelii were situated about 5 foot above ground level. My thermometer is also situated around 4-5 feet above ground level too, so I suspect the temperatures were correct. If anything, the thermometer was actually running slightly warmer due to it being situated closer to the house than the Ensente's. However for the sake of argument, we will assume that they are roughly the same temperature. 

Now if I'm not mistaken, frost at temperatures above freezing (0C / 32F) is due to the moisture droplets radiating more heat than the surrounding surface area, allowing them to cool faster and drop below the surface temperature. So while the leaf may be 35F, the water droplets are 32F and capable of freezing. I'm sure there is more complex science behind it, but that is the only way I can explain the frozen water droplets on my Abyssinian banana leafs, despite there being no actual frost damage to the plant.

Basically the water droplets have a lower heat capacity than the surrounding plant foliage, allowing them to cool quicker and freeze at higher temps. Hence why the dew on your lawn will freeze at a temperature of 36-38F, because it cools quicker than the foliage that the moisture is sitting on. At least I think that is the case...

 

They explain in the video, that the frost forms on objects that are actually 32 degrees. 

The water sitting on the plant is at 32degrees if frozen, and there isn’t much distance to go til you reach the first plant cells beneath that.  

Dissolved salts in liquids and certain sugars and proteins in plants and animals lower the freezing point of water, and inhibit the growth of ice crystals, and certain plants can adjust the flexibility of their cell membranes in a temperature dependent fashion.  This is very species dependent.  Perhaps that has more do do with the actual physical damage.  

Edited November 20, 2021 by Looking Glass

[Dartolution]

Yeah that looks like cold damage. Whatever variety you picked up must be pretty sensitive to frost. 

Im up in 8a Alabama, and while we had 1 night at 33F so far it really didn't do any major damage to the bananas I have, just the tips. 

I suspect that maybe the 3rd banana is in a much more exposed area? The others look like they are close to a structure and may be receiving radiant heat. 

[Dartolution]

On 11/17/2021 at 12:13 PM, Jtee said:

I think the coldest we have gotten is maybe low 40s.

I have passion fruit, avocado and dragon fruit outside in pots and only the dragon fruit is showing some cold damage. The tag on the banana said musa bajoo. 

Just noticed this.

I do not believe that to be a basjoo. 

Young basjoo's do not look like that.