Seeds Directly In ground

[ZPalms]

Has anyone ever planted seeds directly into the ground? Is their a success rate for this? does it take too long? Does it make the palm more vulnerable being so small? I'm asking specifically for washingtonia but maybe also seeds like Butia, sabals?

Edited November 22, 2021 by ZPalms

[Scott W]

To be honest it's how nature does it.  Certainly lots of variables that would affect germination, and I would expect a lower rate for sure as the environment is not controlled like one would do in a greenhouse environment.

[ZPalms]

33 minutes ago, Scott W said:

To be honest it's how nature does it.  Certainly lots of variables that would affect germination, and I would expect a lower rate for sure as the environment is not controlled like one would do in a greenhouse environment.

What if you germinated seeds and then moved them in the ground immediately, Picking the seed up and the soil or whatever that was used and place it in all in a small hole undisturbing the seedling?

would the appropriate timing to do such a thing be mid spring when it's still cool out but not extremely hot?

Edited November 22, 2021 by ZPalms

[Johnny Palmseed]

While possible, I’m not sure you will have a lot of success. Depending on where in NC you live, you might not be able to reproduce the conditions required for germination. Part of the reason why you stop seeing palm trees as you travel north is that it is too cold not only for growth but also germination. You can plant a palm that has been grown to a self sustaining level and it could continue to grow outside of its normal range. But seeds/seedlings are a different story. They can be very fragile and difficult to get to this size without protection. Even germinating seeds here in Florida, I am using a heat mat through the winter months. I would probably have a much lower success rate without it. You can certainly try to throw some seeds in the ground but I wouldn’t recommend trying this method with anything other than free seeds.

[ZPalms]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

While possible, I’m not sure you will have a lot of success. Depending on where in NC you live, you might not be able to reproduce the conditions required for germination. Part of the reason why you stop seeing palm trees as you travel north is that it is too cold not only for growth but also germination. You can plant a palm that has been grown to a self sustaining level and it could continue to grow outside of its normal range. But seeds/seedlings are a different story. They can be very fragile and difficult to get to this size without protection. Even germinating seeds here in Florida, I am using a heat mat through the winter months. I would probably have a much lower success rate without it. You can certainly try to throw some seeds in the ground but I wouldn’t recommend trying this method with anything other than free seeds.

I posted a reply to Scott before the forum updated with your reply but you can answer too if you want 

[Scott W]

1 hour ago, ZPalms said:

What if you germinated seeds and then moved them in the ground immediately, Picking the seed up and the soil or whatever that was used and place it in all in a small hole undisturbing the seedling?

would the appropriate timing to do such a thing be mid spring when it's still cool out but not extremely hot?

I would think this would give you a better chance at survival.  I've heard Washingtonia grow like weeds so I don't think you'd loose anything trying.  Butia in the other hand are a bit more difficult and temperamental.  Here's an interesting article I just read regarding endocarp removal versus not with Butia...you can click donwload pdf and read it without being grayed over.

https://journals.ashs.org/horttech/view/journals/horttech/8/4/article-p586.xml

 

[Silas_Sancona]

58 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I've heard Washingtonia grow like weeds so I don't think you'd loose anything trying.

 

Weeds for sure...  Birds drop 100's of seed from where they roost in the back every year. 99.9% of them sprout within a year ( typically within 6 months -or less- ) No matter the time of year, always have a few popping up all the time.  Have had older seed that ended up buried in pots / parts of the yard for over a year sprout when uncovered / brought closer to the surface ( of the soil ) and soaked a couple times, ..whether by the hose, or rainfall, esp. in Summer..  At least in my yard, nothing touches them once sprouted either, inc. Thrashers that tear up almost everything else. Next to Palmetto seed, Washingtonia are pretty much foolproof.

I'd say toss a handful of seed in an area / areas you want them to grow.. mark the area, barely cover.. maybe a 1/2 inch of mulch, leaves ..or whatever ...and let nature do it's work. Plant and forget..   Would bet more than just a few will pop in the spring, ...definitely before summer there ( where it actually rains, haha )  Sunny area might get them to pop faster, but isn't an absolute requirement.. Area beneath the tree the birds roost in here / ..that side of the yard really.. sits in part to full bright shade 85-95% of the day ( depending on the time of year ) ..Doesn't set back any seed that pops at all. 

These things are so tough / easy that i had a ton of washy seed pop this past summer in a spider web encased wood pile that sits in the space between a shed and north facing block wall that gets no direct sun at all and gets no water, aside from whatever rain falls. Looked like grass when i noticed it.

[ruskinPalms]

I guess it just depends on what type of palm you are trying to grow directly in the ground combined with your climate, soil type, moisture level, time of year, local critters that may like the seeds or seedlings and I’m sure a whole lot more factors. For example, Dypsis lutescens grow just fine here by throwing them on the ground even with the fruit still on the seed as long there is enough moisture available. So far, none of the local wildlife likes the sprouted seedlings. The squirrels do like the eat the fruit off the seeds though. 
 

 

[Brucer]

I had hundreds of Kentia seeds drop from a tall palm in my backyard, and literally got hundreds of seedlings growing. I ended up potting them and selling them in 8 inch pots.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Brucer

[Fallen Munk]

Germination rates will be lower.  Squirrels and rats would eat all of them if I tried this.

[necturus]

I've sprouted Chamaedorea, Arenga, and Phoenix species this way. If the seeds are fresh and your soil is good, it'll work. It's best to use a shady spot that doesn't completely dry out. 

What blows my mind is, I had Chamaedorea microspadix and radicalis, Arenga engleri, and Phoenix acaulis seeds in the ground during the terrible Texas winter freeze which subsequently sprouted this spring and summer!

[Fusca]

13 minutes ago, necturus said:

What blows my mind is, I had Chamaedorea microspadix and radicalis, Arenga engleri, and Phoenix acaulis seeds in the ground during the terrible Texas winter freeze which subsequently sprouted this spring and summer!

Funny you mention this.  I noticed a lot more volunteer seedlings post-freeze as well.  Mostly Pride of Barbados and castor beans.  Maybe it has to do with the loss of foliage allowing sun to reach spots it normally doesn't?

[ZPalms]

20 hours ago, Scott W said:

I would think this would give you a better chance at survival.  I've heard Washingtonia grow like weeds so I don't think you'd loose anything trying.  Butia in the other hand are a bit more difficult and temperamental.  Here's an interesting article I just read regarding endocarp removal versus not with Butia...you can click donwload pdf and read it without being grayed over.

https://journals.ashs.org/horttech/view/journals/horttech/8/4/article-p586.xml

 

Thanks for the article, I finally had time to read through it and I'm a bit confused what endocarp is but does that mean the actual seed is inside the shell?

[Steve the palmreader]

It is the best way to plant a Bismarks

[necturus]

12 hours ago, Fusca said:

Funny you mention this.  I noticed a lot more volunteer seedlings post-freeze as well.  Mostly Pride of Barbados and castor beans.  Maybe it has to do with the loss of foliage allowing sun to reach spots it normally doesn't?

My palm seedlings came up in a shady spot without any competition. I did have a tremendous number of Jatropha gossypifolia seedlings which rapidly grew and took over my yard, but this may have had more to do with the maturity of the two plants in my yard pre-freeze. Both of them died and didn't come back.

[Scott W]

4 hours ago, ZPalms said:

Thanks for the article, I finally had time to read through it and I'm a bit confused what endocarp is but does that mean the actual seed is inside the shell?

Yes, the endocarp is the actual hard out shell of the seed.

Image grabbed from Google....

 

[D Palm]

I have many of a Pindo and Sago Palm sprouts out of the ground in my yard. Pot them up and sale. Some grow easily, others not. Some things grow too easily…thus becoming invasive. Look up the Cold-hardy Mimosa tree, I see it competing (and winning) against native trees from FL to NC & TN. 

[GottmitAlex]

I finger planted (just the tip of the index finger) 6 D. plumosa seeds @DoomsDave gifted me. 5 sprouted.  4 were killed by feral cats who loved, yes, past tense, to play with what they thought was tall blades of grass.

I have one survivor.  It's doing well.

[ZPalms]

13 hours ago, Scott W said:

Yes, the endocarp is the actual hard out shell of the seed.

Image grabbed from Google....

 

How do you even remove the endocarp without damaging the seed? I'd be too scared to even try it cause you'd only get one chance?

 

1 hour ago, D Palm said:

I have many of a Pindo and Sago Palm sprouts out of the ground in my yard. Pot them up and sale. Some grow easily, others not. Some things grow too easily…thus becoming invasive. Look up the Cold-hardy Mimosa tree, I see it competing (and winning) against native trees from FL to NC & TN. 

We have so many Mimosa trees sprouting around our yard, They grow anywhere and everywhere, They have found their way into my potted plants and they seem to really enjoy sitting under the roof edge where the water floods and beats the ground in the summer cause my house has no gutters, Theirs an actual forest of just mimosa trees not that far from me.

[ZPalms]

In the spring when all frost has past and it's no longer uncomfortably cold I'm gonna do a test run of putting a butia and washingtonia in the ground as a test run, I'll germinate it to speed the process up and then bury the newly sprouted seedling I'll keep the area moist and see how it does.

One of things about palm growing I dislike is growing in pots, I'm the worst at managing good soil quality and water timing.

Thanks for the input everyone!! 

Edited November 24, 2021 by ZPalms

[Scott W]

6 hours ago, ZPalms said:

How do you even remove the endocarp without damaging the seed? I'd be too scared to even try it cause you'd only get one chance

Removing the endocarp is not necessary, however, some of these articles imply that one gets better germination with proper sterilization and conditions.  It would certainly be time consuming trying to crack thousands, but if one was experimenting with a handful certainly doable.

As for how to do it, you put the seed in a vice and gently squeeze until it pops and cracks, then you carefully pry it off the kernal.

[ZPalms]

3 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Removing the endocarp is not necessary, however, some of these articles imply that one gets better germination with proper sterilization and conditions.  It would certainly be time consuming trying to crack thousands, but if one was experimenting with a handful certainly doable.

As for how to do it, you put the seed in a vice and gently squeeze until it pops and cracks, then you carefully pry it off the kernal.

I'd probably crack the seed in 2 trying to do it  I have some cherry seeds I've been trying to crack open out of the endocarp but they are super hard!!

[DoomsDave]

9 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

I finger planted (just the tip of the index finger) 6 D. plumosa seeds @DoomsDave gifted me. 5 sprouted.  4 were killed by feral cats who loved, yes, past tense, to play with what they thought was tall blades of grass.

I have one survivor.  It's doing well.

That strip there looks like a great spot for Dypsis plumosa. They're a very underrated palm. They appear to only grow about 15 feet tall, maximum, usually a lot less.

[ZPalms]

I've been thinking about this again, because I don't like having to maintain and water seedlings in pots, cups, and such. So, I'm going to try sprouting a couple of different palm seeds indoors. Once the temperature gets warm enough, I'll plant some directly in the ground and see how they do, of course, in areas that have been prepped and amended.

I feel like I could save tons of space and time if they just get in the ground because regardless I'll be covering most of my sensitive palms in winter anyway.

Edited March 3 by ZPalms

[kristof p]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:40 PM, ZPalms said:

Has anyone ever planted seeds directly into the ground? Is their a success rate for this? does it take too long? Does it make the palm more vulnerable being so small? I'm asking specifically for washingtonia but maybe also seeds like Butia, sabals?

I have had good succes with planting seeds in the garden with Jubaea, S. minor, Chamaerops cerifera, T. oreophilus, T. ukhrulensis and ofcourse T. fortunei and wagnerianus who are just like weeds around here.

[redbeard917]

I've had success doing large beds of coonties (Zamia) this way. As others have mentioned, probably plant several seeds and select the most robust.

[Harry’s Palms]

I have had a few sprout from fallen fruit before . I periodically plant Chamaedorea fruit directly in the ground and they seem to grow quickly. Phoenix R. , C. Radicalis , C Microspadix , Washingtonias voluntarily sprout , Syagrus R. , and last year a Wodyetia seed that I stuck in the ground. 

[CarolinaGeechee]

Southeastern NC here, ive notived germinating directly in ground vs papertowel/bag method i have to say planting directly in the ground has been quicker. (washingtonia’s and queens btw)

[jwitt]

Speaking from a z7b,  I would plant filifera and hybrids by directly seeding. 

I do this. Have done it repeatedly with success.  You end up with a larger palm(10years), fully established roots, and you completely miss the transplant 2-3 year establishment. 

I talk to this in a heading called miracles never cease.

1year old seedlings direct sowed 6/2023. Saw 11f last winter 

[ZPalms]

I was thinking about this again and just want to be sure: It's okay to plant washies, sabals, and phoenix palms directly in sandy/sandy loam soil without amendments, and they'll do fine, right?

[jwitt]

12 hours ago, ZPalms said:

I was thinking about this again and just want to be sure: It's okay to plant washies, sabals, and phoenix palms directly in sandy/sandy loam soil without amendments, and they'll do fine, right?

I seed filifera and hybrids in sand with no amendments.  I do not do the other palms.

[floridaPalmMan]

I dropped this bag of sabal seeds about two years ago and apparently they all germinated.

So in the name of experimentation I've been fertilizing them to see if I can keep them all alive to create a sabal treebush.

[ZPalms]

2 hours ago, floridaPalmMan said:

I dropped this bag of sabal seeds about two years ago and apparently they all germinated.

So in the name of experimentation I've been fertilizing them to see if I can keep them all alive to create a sabal treebush.

I wonder why when I randomly throw palm seeds out randomly they never sprout, Is there a way to improve the likely hood of germinating?

is this area usually wetter?

[floridaPalmMan]

On 8/18/2024 at 8:40 PM, ZPalms said:

I wonder why when I randomly throw palm seeds out randomly they never sprout, Is there a way to improve the likely hood of germinating?

is this area usually wetter?

Sorry for the late response but yes there's a few things different about the spots these seeds germinated at vs other spots I've thrown seeds with no results.

First off, its swamp ass Florida so that's probably better conditions from the get go.

2nd these areas are southern facing.

3rd they're under canopy. 

There are several groups of seeds that self germinated in that small area under the bamboo canopy.

Here are as random sabals from a handful I tossed out

Here's some sabals and phoenix roebellini that sprung up from seeds I dropped

 

And here's a cham. Radicalis (I think?) that came out of nowhere.

All of these are within 20-30 feet of each other on the southern side of the property under very shallow canopy (maybe 15 feet).

And the bamboo canopy is thick so I'm sure it blocks a lot of sun and keeps the ground wetter,  which as you thought, probably contributes to increased germination.

[Johnny Palmseed]

On 8/18/2024 at 6:10 PM, floridaPalmMan said:

I dropped this bag of sabal seeds about two years ago and apparently they all germinated.

So in the name of experimentation I've been fertilizing them to see if I can keep them all alive to create a sabal treebush.

They will live for a while but eventually just the strongest few will survive. Then it will just be 1 or 2. The roots will compete and the smallest ones will die off. You will not be able to stop this.

[flplantguy]

I get large numbers of sabal seedlings under one of my individuals especially, that area had some dirt movement that buried the seeds. If this doesnt happen they sit there and wait or get eaten. Most just stay small and die after a while from competition.  You would have to plant the seeds as they would need in their natural environment to get them to germinate in any decent numbers too.

[sonoranfans]

I get hundreds of volunteers that seem to explode when it gets hot and wet int he summer season.  Sabals, Bismarckia archontophoenix, C leptocheilos. Livistonas, Dypsis pembana have produced many volunteers.  Here are archontophoenix myolensis and bismarckia. 

[floridaPalmMan]

On 8/18/2024 at 8:40 PM, ZPalms said:

I wonder why when I randomly throw palm seeds out randomly they never sprout, Is there a way to improve the likely hood of germinating?

is this area usually wetter?

Oh yeah and the other common denominator, (from my yard anyway) they weren't cleaned.

I just clipped a seed branch off of a tree in my area and tossed those seeds out. The roebellini seeds were from a Wawa parking lot in Orlando. But both groupings are from fresh, uncleaned seeds.

[Johnny Palmseed]

4 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I get hundreds of volunteers that seem to explode when it gets hot and wet int he summer season.  Sabals, Bismarckia archontophoenix, C leptocheilos. Livistonas, Dypsis pembana have produced many volunteers.  Here are archontophoenix myolensis and bismarckia. 

I’ll bet there are many viewers who are salivating at this sight!

[floridaPalmMan]

Check this out

So I let the leaves build up a little too much on this leanto and a bird or squirrel must have grabbed some of those sabal seeds I threw on the ground, eaten them and now a bunch are growing on the metal roof lol.

As soon as I saw this I had to post it in this thread 

Maybe animal digestion is another key factor that helps seeds germinate better in the wild. Maybe the stomach acid really does break down the exterior of the seed to allow easier germination.

Be right back, Im ganna go eat some butia seeds to see if it can speed up their germination.