Is it possible to identify which Licuala these are?

[miamicuse]

I have a number of Licuala sp. seedlings but no idea specifically what they are.

Is it possible at this stage to tell what these might be?

[Palmarum]

Any list of possibilities?

If they all have split leaves and are common species, maybe L. spinosa or L. lauterbachii? Grow them to a 3-gallon size and they will be a lot more identifiable.

Ryan

[graham spell]

You can look at the leaf shape, but the trouble is that mostare species of indoor palms have pinnate leaves . The place to look to identify indoor palms is the the base where stems emerge from the soil, the size and coloration of trunk or main stems, the areas where leaf sheaths are attached to stem, and the shape, color, and size of the leaflets.

[Darold Petty]

Graham, Welcome to Palmtalk !  

[Merlyn]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:02 PM, miamicuse said:

I have a number of Licuala sp. seedlings but no idea specifically what they are.

Is it possible at this stage to tell what these might be?

Yeah, most of them look similar when they are small.  Clearly you could rule out Peltata v. Sumawongii since they are pinnate.  I have seedlings of Aurantiaca (Paludosa), Fordiana, Peltata v. Peltata, Peltata v. Sumawongii, Ramsayi v. Tuckeri, and Spinosa.  Most of mine are smaller than yours, bought from Floribunda, NatureGirl or PalmatierMeg.  Based on the end of the leaves I'd rule out Peltata (very square tips), but Ramsayi, Spinosa, Fordiana and Aurantiaca are possibilities.

[miamicuse]

So I have close to 60 of these seedlings.  Most of them in repurposed water bottles.

How big do they need to be before I move them to a real pot?   I still have no idea what kind of Licuala these are.

[realarch]

ID might take awhile, you have to narrow the possibilities of where the seed came from. When you see roots coming out of the bottom of those containers, then it’s time to move them to a larger pot. At this stage, they grow relatively fast. They look great. 

Tim

[miamicuse]

14 hours ago, realarch said:

ID might take awhile, you have to narrow the possibilities of where the seed came from.

I don't have any idea of where the seeds came from.  I bought all of the seedlings in a single pot from a local nursery who closed it's business, and the tag says "Luicala Sp." and the people there didn't have any specifics beyond the tag.  I then took it home and emptied the pot and individually planted about 60 of these.  So I have absolutely no idea what these are.

[miamicuse]

Fast forward 21 months since last post.  This is not a fast growing palm.  I planted four into the ground in the summer of 2022, one in filtered light, one in part sun, one in full morning sun, and one in shade.  The full morning sun wilted, the other three did not grow any faster than then ones in pots.

Here are some new pictures, I wonder if they exhibit anything to narrow down what it may be?

It looks solitary,

[Palmarum]

I still don't see anything detail wise that narrows it down to a species, just more possibilities. When you got them, did you get the feeling they were something unusual or that the place dealt with exotic material? If all 60 plants are the same and they were not expensive (as in trying to recoup money from expensive seed or seedlings); chances are they will be more common... or they either didn't know or bothered to price them accordingly.

You are right they are most likely solitary. Thin fiber on the leaf bases and small spines on the petioles might suggest a smaller species. If it remains small with no urgency to grow a stem it could be one of the shorter, stout members, like L. kunstleri. Since you mentioned the tag said "Licuala sp." I wonder if it is a known 'sp.' and the tag wasn't completely written out or it got cut off? One short, stemless 'sp.' that comes to mind is Licuala sp. 'Yal Braal' which was later renamed as Lanonia acaulis. They have been known to mature and flower as a large 3-gallon, or regular 7-gallon sized plant. Then again, just another possibility. 

The more I stare at the photos, a couple things begin to stand out. First. the angle of attachment of the leaf segments. In the first and second photos above, the segments come off the attachment at an outward, forward angle instead of a circular or orbicular arrangement. This could just be a juvenile feature. It kind of gives a blunt-edge to the leaf instead of a rounded one. Another feature that might aid in identification is the inner most, center two, apical segments. I cannot tell for sure, but they look like they are conjoined at the base (first photo). If they are conjoined, then it would be one large center, apical segment that is bifurcated instead of two segments. Again, this could just be a juvenile habit, but if it remains as is, it could be identification material as they grow.

They are healthy and happy palms, so keep growing them the way you have been. I know it is annoying not knowing what they are, but it is part of the mystery of buying 'spuh's'. Name them something fun if you need to, like for a sale or auction, such as Licuala sp. 'Mystery #1'. 

Ryan

[KrisKupsch]

No

[Merlyn]

It's interesting how much they've changed since the first photos!  Initially they were very rounded, but the new leaves look very blunt-tipped.  I thought it couldn't be Peltata v. Peltata, but the newest leaf looks like any of the deeply split types.  I'd guess it isn't Auriculata/Paludosa, just because the stems aren't super-stabby.  But that could just be the photos or the still young-ish age of the plants.

[miamicuse]

18 hours ago, Palmarum said:

I still don't see anything detail wise that narrows it down to a species, just more possibilities. When you got them, did you get the feeling they were something unusual or that the place dealt with exotic material? If all 60 plants are the same and they were not expensive (as in trying to recoup money from expensive seed or seedlings); chances are they will be more common... or they either didn't know or bothered to price them accordingly.

You are right they are most likely solitary. Thin fiber on the leaf bases and small spines on the petioles might suggest a smaller species. If it remains small with no urgency to grow a stem it could be one of the shorter, stout members, like L. kunstleri. Since you mentioned the tag said "Licuala sp." I wonder if it is a known 'sp.' and the tag wasn't completely written out or it got cut off? One short, stemless 'sp.' that comes to mind is Licuala sp. 'Yal Braal' which was later renamed as Lanonia acaulis. They have been known to mature and flower as a large 3-gallon, or regular 7-gallon sized plant. Then again, just another possibility. 

The more I stare at the photos, a couple things begin to stand out. First. the angle of attachment of the leaf segments. In the first and second photos above, the segments come off the attachment at an outward, forward angle instead of a circular or orbicular arrangement. This could just be a juvenile feature. It kind of gives a blunt-edge to the leaf instead of a rounded one. Another feature that might aid in identification is the inner most, center two, apical segments. I cannot tell for sure, but they look like they are conjoined at the base (first photo). If they are conjoined, then it would be one large center, apical segment that is bifurcated instead of two segments. Again, this could just be a juvenile habit, but if it remains as is, it could be identification material as they grow.

They are healthy and happy palms, so keep growing them the way you have been. I know it is annoying not knowing what they are, but it is part of the mystery of buying 'spuh's'. Name them something fun if you need to, like for a sale or auction, such as Licuala sp. 'Mystery #1'. 

Ryan

I will keep a close eye as they grow as far as the leaf shape and arrangement.  It could be like you said being a juvenile feature.

So far what seems to be the case:

As the plant grows the individual leaves seem to form more a blunt edge instead of a pointed edge when it was a very small seedling.

It seems to be solitary.

One specimen got burnt in full sun, well I could have guessed that without trying it.

[miamicuse]

OK another 6 months here are some updated pictures.

One thing I did was I planted two of the biggest ones in amongst my seedlings into the ground, part shade, and they didn't do too well, they just didn't grow in size at all, and look a bit beaten and so the ones in pots overtook them in size.

I don't know if these updated pics show any additional characteristics that may be used for identification...first pic has a spray bottle for scale, it also has a new emergent leaf in case this may be helpful.  Also some leaves have six segments, some seven segments.

[happypalms]

If you got em post em 👍

[Merlyn]

@miamicuse do the stems have any thorns at all?  I'm wondering if they are a Rhapis or Chuniophoenix species?  The new photos are looking a lot like Rhapis Excelsa.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

looks like maybe L ramsayi based on the latest pics

[Frond-friend42]

I see spines in the first set of photos.

[miamicuse]

11 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@miamicuse do the stems have any thorns at all?  I'm wondering if they are a Rhapis or Chuniophoenix species?  The new photos are looking a lot like Rhapis Excelsa.

I doubt these are Rhapis Excelsa because the tips of the leaves are quite blunt, and it's solitary.

and yes there are thorns on the stems.

[miamicuse]

4 hours ago, PalmsInBaltimore said:

looks like maybe L ramsayi based on the latest pics

The Licuala ramsayi I have seen were all larger specimen and they have these segmental leaves that goes all the way around, and these seems to be in half circles or slightly more then that, and the ramsayi I think has many segments these have may be 6, 7 segments.  I don't know if these characteristics change when they get older?

[Merlyn]

@miamicuse yeah the whitish teeth facing towards the base of the frond probably helps to ID them.  Unfortunately I don't know enough about Licuala for that to help me....  But at least that rules out my Rhapis or Chuniophoenix guess.  I do have a couple of medium sized Ramsayi and some seedlings, I can check tomorrow on the thorn and leaf shape.  Here is a bigger one, about 3ish feet tall on the left side:

[Harry’s Palms]

One of the largest Licuala I’ve seen in Southern California was in @DoomsDave garden . The thing is massive , one of the spoked , divided leaf , varieties. I may try another one here at my place after seeing his . The only time I tried was when I first bought my house in ‘97 . It was an epic fail with both Spinosa and Grandis. They came out of the greenhouse at my old house and I had no time to acclimate so both were goners. Maybe Dave will post a photo of his , it is something to behold. Harry

[Merlyn]

@miamicuse I looked at my Licuala at lunch, and I'd say they could be Spinosa or Ramsayi.  Peltata and Aurantiaca/Paludosa look similar but have black thorns.  Here's photos of my larger Ramsayi:

And the stems are a bit out of focus, but it's storming hard at the moment:

My best guess is Spinosa, here are my large seedlings from NatureGirl:

The earlier leaves are somewhat rounded but with the staggered tips.  The newer leaves are more blunt/squared off and they have straw colored thorns facing towards the base of the frond.

[Harry’s Palms]

Beautiful! Harry

[DoomsDave]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:38 AM, Harry’s Palms said:

One of the largest Licuala I’ve seen in Southern California was in @DoomsDave garden . The thing is massive , one of the spoked , divided leaf , varieties. I may try another one here at my place after seeing his . The only time I tried was when I first bought my house in ‘97 . It was an epic fail with both Spinosa and Grandis. They came out of the greenhouse at my old house and I had no time to acclimate so both were goners. Maybe Dave will post a photo of his , it is something to behold. Harry

Here’s my big Licuala ramsayi.

[Harry’s Palms]

There it is in all its glory! Darn nice for SoCal , eh? Harry