Area Of New York City in zone 8a according to Wikipedia?

[MonkeDonkezz]

Hello PalmTalk!

There is going to be a short introduction first.

My name is Yahor though I prefer you call me by my username and I am from Staten Island, a borough of NYC.

I don't feel comfy telling people my age, but I am 12-16 years old.

I first got my interest in palms when visiting Jacksonville Florida last year.

I want to start growing them.

So the reason I am making this post is something that has caught my eye for a while.  According to Wikipedia, on the page about NYC's climate, the climate data graphs and classifications section show that  areas of NYC might be in zone 8a.

LaGuardia has 11 F (-12 C) as the minimum for January.

Belvedere Castle in Central Park  has 9.8 F (-12.3 C) as the minimum.

JFK has 10 F (-12) as the minimum.

Sorry if the pictures look bad

I find the emotes on the forum funny 

 

 

 

[MonkeDonkezz]

Sorry If I posted this in the wrong forum!

[Fusca]

Welcome to Palmtalk!  Probably better suited for the "Weather" forum but no problem.  If I'm not mistaken the cold hardiness zones are calculated from the average yearly minimum temperatures over the last 30 years for a given area and I don't see this data in the charts you displayed.  So you'd have to find the average of the lowest temperature from 1992, 1993, ... 2020, 2021.  Then the actual zone would be based on a range of temperatures set by the USDA.  According to the latest map that I've seen Long Island and parts of NYC are zone 7a.  Possibly some unique microclimates could be 7b but I seriously doubt zone 8.  These zones are just general guidelines for planting anyway and don't guarantee success for growing palms as there's lost of factors involved such as duration of freezes, number of freeze events, precipitation, etc.

[MonkeDonkezz]

Thank you!

[MonkeDonkezz]

I used this map to define zones of the nyc metro and it showed that zone 7b covered most of the city, with the exceptions of parts of Staten Island and The Bronx, though this is using the 2012 USDA map

[LeonardHolmes]

I think you have discovered a jumbo microclimate.  It's probably the urban heat island effect.  Great post!  Welcome.

[Jimhardy]

Another thing to consider is, look at the avg daily mean for JFK for January.

Its barely (32.8) above freezing, in a below avg temp year the avg temp would be

well below freezing and duration of cold presents problems as well as ultimate lows....

still putting some palms in the ground and not needing to cover them to often

 with to heavy of protection would make for a fun hobby there.

[Teegurr]

Laguardia is not 8a according to the graph. It's 8a for January, but the average YEARLY minimum is 9f, which is a warm 7b.

[EJPalm05]

Who cares about how cold it has been in the past 30 years 30 years is too long in my opinion! And I consider my area to be Zone 8a!

[SeanK]

Your best bet is Trachycarpus fortunei. It is cold tolerant to 5 degrees F and temperate in its growth requirements. Unlike a Sabal, it won't need 8 months of tropical heat to grow.

[MonkeDonkezz]

Thank you all for replying  

[Gator]

Welcome to PalmTalk !

If youre going to be a zone pusher like the rest of us... this is the place to be !

Enjoy

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 1/20/2022 at 6:36 AM, EJ NJ said:

Who cares about how cold it has been in the past 30 years 30 years is too long in my opinion! And I consider my area to be Zone 8a!

LMAO ! Frozen dead palms don't care.

[Jimhardy]

It stays above freezing in my refrigerator and although I am not sure what zone that would be

I am thinking of growing some palms in there I just need to find a light that stays on when

the door is closed.....on another note. I went through the same thing when I was that age, went to 

Florida, Alabama etc and came back with an Y. Aloifolia and tried to grow it in StL Mo....that was 40+

years ago.....

I also started growing palms and banana plants-then I went to Arizona and got into cactus...

and then....I discovered plants from Madagascar and Southeast Africa that look like a combo

of cactus and palms....at your age the world(until it ends) is your oyster so I say go for it and enjoy the journey!

 

[MonkeDonkezz]

Yeah, I'm gonna start growing yuccas first then move on to growing palms

[DAVEinMB]

On 1/24/2022 at 2:53 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

LMAO ! Frozen dead palms don't care.

Yea, what's data anyways

[DAVEinMB]

On 1/20/2022 at 9:36 AM, EJ NJ said:

Who cares about how cold it has been in the past 30 years 30 years is too long in my opinion! And I consider my area to be Zone 8a!

I like your optimism but you have to remember that if you take a small enough sample size you can manipulate data however you want. Hell if I picked one isolated week in the middle of the winter to base my planting on I might be Zone 11 or 12. 30 years worth of climate data is a large enough sample set to provide, with reasonable confidence, reliable temperature data to use when selecting plants for your garden. 

Take the last 4 winters in Myrtle Beach for example, two 9b winters sandwiched in between pretty solid 8b winters with ice events. 

Just food for thought...

[Nomad NYC]

I actually live near JFK, so I'm definitely living in a solid 7B zone!

But according to the old 1990 USDA Hardiness Zone Map, thirty two years ago, my area was Zone 7A.

Oh well, I hope I do live long enough to see 8A though.

[Nomad NYC]

On 1/4/2022 at 8:58 PM, MonkeDonkezz said:

I used this map to define zones of the nyc metro and it showed that zone 7b covered most of the city, with the exceptions of parts of Staten Island and The Bronx, though this is using the 2012 USDA map

Yes,  can easily see the NYC Metro region becoming an 8A / 8B zone in a couple of decades.

[CaricaChris]

Hello MonkeDonkezz!

I know this thread is almost 2 years old, but I think you'd find this post I made on another forum interesting!

https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-home/1110897-estimating-changes-in-usda-hardiness-zones-nerd-post

Take a look at the graph that's attached. If that trend continues, Staten Island will approach 8a right around 2040. Of course, this is my own musings and I'm just an amateur scientist, so take with a grain of salt.

That said, as a fellow zone pushing Staten Islander, we are lucky to be in such a unique microclimate. I think trachycarpus palms are very possible if you plant against a south facing structure and offer some protection. Yucca rostrata easily survives as long as it has good drainage. If you look around, you'll find plenty of examples growing locally (Golden Dove Diner on Richmond Ave has a nice one). I have a satsuma tree planted against a south facing concrete wall that made it through its first winter outdoors, flowered and has 3 fruits that I'm hoping will ripen soon! The only protection I gave it was christmas lights, a frost blanket and two 5 gallon buckets filled with water against the trunk for some thermal mass. We went down to 5 degrees last winter and had an extended 3 day below freezing stretch. I suspect the microclimate that I placed it in and extra protection kept it from dying. As it ages, it should gain more hardiness. Just an example of what you can do! Satsumas are generally considered more cold sensitive than Trachycarpus. Good luck and happy to share my knowledge if you have questions!

[Allen]

33 minutes ago, CaricaChris said:

Hello MonkeDonkezz!

I know this thread is almost 2 years old, but I think you'd find this post I made on another forum interesting!

https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-home/1110897-estimating-changes-in-usda-hardiness-zones-nerd-post

Take a look at the graph that's attached. If that trend continues, Staten Island will approach 8a right around 2040. Of course, this is my own musings and I'm just an amateur scientist, so take with a grain of salt.

That said, as a fellow zone pushing Staten Islander, we are lucky to be in such a unique microclimate. I think trachycarpus palms are very possible if you plant against a south facing structure and offer some protection. Yucca rostrata easily survives as long as it has good drainage. If you look around, you'll find plenty of examples growing locally (Golden Dove Diner on Richmond Ave has a nice one). I have a satsuma tree planted against a south facing concrete wall that made it through its first winter outdoors, flowered and has 3 fruits that I'm hoping will ripen soon! The only protection I gave it was christmas lights, a frost blanket and two 5 gallon buckets filled with water against the trunk for some thermal mass. We went down to 5 degrees last winter and had an extended 3 day below freezing stretch. I suspect the microclimate that I placed it in and extra protection kept it from dying. As it ages, it should gain more hardiness. Just an example of what you can do! Satsumas are generally considered more cold sensitive than Trachycarpus. Good luck and happy to share my knowledge if you have questions!

Do you have a spreadsheet you have been putting data into and what are you using for your source temps?

[CaricaChris]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

Do you have a spreadsheet you have been putting data into and what are you using for your source temps?

The source data was found here: https://weatherspark.com/

You can download annual temperature history, but it's not free unfortunately. When I did this, I went through each year's graph manually and took the lowest recorded temperatures. I did have it in a spreadsheet but would have to do some digging for it and it hasn't been updated since 2021. A bit tedious, but really interesting if you want to get a better idea of how your climate may have changed. In figuring my zone using this data from 1976-2006, the same time range as USDA's 2012 report, average minimum was 5.2F at my location, compared to 5.0F from USDA. This made me confident that it's a close enough proxy to how USDA calculates hardiness zones.

[Aceraceae]

The Great Zone 8

For the Great Lakes Region, which is close enough to affect the annual minimum temps down to the Mid Atlantic and NYC during typical cold waves (NW), there may be a step-change if the lakes, inlcluding the smallest and shallowest one, Lake Erie, consistently don't freeze over in the winter, at least not past the very edges and bays. 

In winter 2022, Boston and Southern New England, even Nantucket island, were colder than Buffalo NY and Toronto Cananda. 

During 2022 to 2023 winter, Boston and New England approached record cold temps and wind chills. Boston saw it's first -10 F (24 C) in a long time, and Mt Washington about tied it's record low and set a new mainland US record cold wind chill. Meanwhile Buffalo, hundreds of miles NW of NYC and at higher elevation with proximity to zone 5 hills, went down to near but not really below 0. This is the opposite of normal zone mean minimums, with Boston being zone 7 and Buffalo zone 6.

This zone inversion also had to do with the straight northerly aspect of the wind and cold blob. Also keep in mind the warm lakes in the fall and winter can provide for epic lake-effect snow, and rain events, including in November 2022 when an 80 inch (200 cm or 2 meter) from an isolated heavy band of snow storm that fell south of Buffalo and filled an NFL stadium, almost cancelling a Buffalo Bills game that was moved to Detroit's stadium. Erie PA also saw record lake effect in recent years. 

Freezing over is a bit vague, as technically even in the epically cold NE winters like 2014/15 and the famous midcentury winters there was usually a bit of Lake Michigan and Ontario unfroze, as they are very deep and somewhat to the south, and in a mild winter there will still be some ice at the margins of the northern lakes. Meanwhile, Lake Erie being by far the shallowest, and the southernmost can quickly freeze over entirely but also doesn't freeze at all in a milder winter. It only takes a few degrees coldest month mean temp difference. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Aceraceae

[Aceraceae]

The lakes already show a zone or two oceanic influence looking at Ohio vs Iowa hardiness zones etc. Even middle Tennesee with it's brief sub 0 F hit a colder annual low than Ohio and WNY. On the other side, Nantucket tied it's -3 F all time low in February, but the other incidences of -3 are more impressive as they happened in early winter, both January and December, when the surrounding sea would not be at it's minimum temp. 

For the longer distance effect sush as to the Mid Atlantic, having less than half ice cover is enough to moderate the cold, but for the direct local microclimate, it's much more pertinent that there's no ice even one mile out on the shoreline. This would create a really truncated zone 7 near the lakes south shores and a teleo zone 8 in the upper Mid Atlantic to the southern New England (Connecticut) coast. It only takes once though, and that once can be a wind and ice event, or a regional dip in the polar vortex as seen in the 2014 and 2015 winters in the northeast. 

The saltwater Long Island Sound froze within the last decade in just 2015, so we'll see. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Aceraceae

[teddytn]

I lived in Syracuse, Ny for the first 22 years of my life before moving to Middle TN. Upstate NY gets brutally cold and at least when I was a kid unbelievable amounts of snow. Anywhere next to the ocean is going to be radically different in its moderated temperatures. I’ve visited NYC many times and in the past few years spent some time in Atlantic beach, NC which is a true 8a. Why a true 8a, because there were palmettos, med fan palms, butias, and Trachycarpus planted everywhere out in the open and unprotected every winter. There’s no way you could get away with that for even one winter really any further north along the east coast than Virginia Beach. 

[SeanK]

NY ranges from 7b to 3b; four full zones. That's on-par with CA. Down in the boroughs or on the south shore, I would try Trachycarpus and Rapidophyllum. The former doesn't require a hot summer to grow.

[Aceraceae]

Florida covers four zones as well from 8 to 12a in Key West. Crestview is 8b now but there was a patch of 8a along the northern border in the '75 to 2005 2012 USDA map. 

Trachycarpus has a strong case on Long Island and cooler summer Nantucket where it already only needs a basic wrapping, not a full box and heat. Needle palm more in the city UHI with good siting for all day sun and likely use of leaked ground heat from surrounding buildings like the Bridgeport, Connecticut Sabal. 

[Aceraceae]

Georgia is four zones as well for that matter, 6a to 9a. Any large or mountainous state has a wide range, in the climatically continental US, on the large north american continent, which has a cool flow on its west coast, blocking mountains, and an open continental north to the arctic. 

[RFun]

As for this topic on the weather issue for the NYC area....best to go to weather.gov and look under "Past Weather".  I've found that if you do a search for 100 years of data, you're going to get a better gauge of things than if you're relying on shorter periods of data which can fluctuate quite a bit (i.e., USDA Hardiness Zone Map).  Otherwise, by using shorter time periods, you're going to swing back and forth in a lot of areas of the country.  Also, consider factors like the length of any sub-freezing cold spells, wind direction, sheltered locations, microclimates in your backyard, etc.

Edited October 23, 2023 by RFun

[MarcusH]

I don't pay too much attention to the zones I look up the record lows for the last 100 years and how it changed because there's this one storm that can ruin your 30 years of work . I don't sugar coat.  

[RFun]

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I don't pay too much attention to the zones I look up the record lows for the last 100 years and how it changed because there's this one storm that can ruin your 30 years of work . I don't sugar coat.  

Yes, that's always possible.  There's always the risk of one of those once in 50-100 year cold events that could take out some of your favorite plants.  Or it could be massive flooding, drought or fire lol.  Really anything is possible.

Edited October 23, 2023 by RFun

[teddytn]

If I was trying to make any point it was this. It may be possible that for quite a few years in a row NYC may have lows that qualify it as 8a. But since we’re talking about zones in regards to growing palms, I would equate NYC as closer to an Ohio 6b than anywhere that is an actual palm growing 8a. There’s too many other factors. Length of seasons, lack of heat in summer being 2 that stand out to me. 

[RFun]

43 minutes ago, teddytn said:

If I was trying to make any point it was this. It may be possible that for quite a few years in a row NYC may have lows that qualify it as 8a. But since we’re talking about zones in regards to growing palms, I would equate NYC as closer to an Ohio 6b than anywhere that is an actual palm growing 8a. There’s too many other factors. Length of seasons, lack of heat in summer being 2 that stand out to me. 

NYC gets plenty of heat in the Summer.  My biggest concern would be the length of those sub-freezing cold snaps.  I've never put Trachycarpus palms to a test to find out.  I know that they are quite hardy though.  They do seem like a strong candidate for that area.  I know there are people growing them there.  So far, so good.

Edited October 23, 2023 by RFun

[CaricaChris]

45 minutes ago, teddytn said:

If I was trying to make any point it was this. It may be possible that for quite a few years in a row NYC may have lows that qualify it as 8a. But since we’re talking about zones in regards to growing palms, I would equate NYC as closer to an Ohio 6b than anywhere that is an actual palm growing 8a. There’s too many other factors. Length of seasons, lack of heat in summer being 2 that stand out to me. 

No doubt the selection of palms that could be grown in NYC is very limited and they would certainly need some form of protection at some point if they were to survive long-term. But, I will say, sub-zero temperatures are increasingly rare here, the last being in the mid-90s. Doesn't mean it won't happen again, but the ocean really does moderate temperatures significantly. And, like you said, our climate in other respects resembles other north/mid-latitude regions where growing palms is near impossible. 

Cleveland, OH Growing Season: 217 days with ~3,400 GDD

NYC Growing Season: 243 days with ~3,750 GDD

Virginia Beach, VA Growing Season: 258 day with ~4,800 GDD

I think with ideal microclimate placement (a house or concrete/brick structure can add 5 degrees + of passive heat), trachy palms are possible without much protection once established. Weather is unpredictable and surely they could get killed in extreme events without intervention, but as long as OP is willing to take those interventions in those cases, it's worth giving a try and I'd wager they'd be successful.

[Aceraceae]

3 hours ago, teddytn said:

I would equate NYC as closer to an Ohio 6b than anywhere that is an actual palm growing 8a. There’s too many other factors. Length of seasons, lack of heat in summer

NYC is much warmer than the upstate area you were talking about before, summer and winter, and so much less snow. It's like comparing north Orlando or Gaineseville to Miami and Miami Beach for Long Island. A two zone jump (9b to 11a for Miami, 11b for Miami Beach). 5b/6a to 7b with hot summer for NYC, Long Island is just hot enough in summer to also be humid subtropical vs oceanic (>72 F 22 C in July and August). 

3 hours ago, CaricaChris said:

But, I will say, sub-zero temperatures are increasingly rare here, the last being in the mid-90s. Doesn't mean it won't happen again, but the ocean really does moderate temperatures significantly.

1994 is the 20th century 'Big Freeze' for parts of the NE and Midwest comparable to the 60s and 80s freezes in FL. It was Cleveland's record low of -20 F, vs only reaching -17 F in the windy polar dip of February 2015. The ocean helps Long Island more than NYC, it's almost always west wind and it's only open sea to the SE. NYC is the largest non desert UHI and it's below the fall zone protected by hills to the NW. The UHI is stronger than the oceanic influence or Long Island Sound protection as Long Island is both cooler by summer and is not even a half zone over the city, despite being surrounded by water. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Aceraceae

[RFun]

15 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

NYC is much warmer than the upstate area you were talking about before, summer and winter, and so much less snow. It's like comparing north Orlando or Gaineseville to Miami and Miami Beach for Long Island. A two zone jump (9b to 11a for Miami, 11b for Miami Beach). 5b/6a to 7b with hot summer for NYC, Long Island is just hot enough in summer to also be humid subtropical vs oceanic (>72 F 22 C in July and August). 

1994 is the 20th century 'Big Freeze' for parts of the NE and Midwest comparable to the 60s and 80s freezes in FL. It was Cleveland's record low of -20 F, vs only reaching -17 F in the windy polar dip of February 2015. The ocean helps Long Island more than NYC, it's almost always west wind and it's only open sea to the SE. NYC is the largest non desert UHI and it's below the fall zone protected by hills to the NW. The UHI is stronger than the oceanic influence or Long Island Sound protection as Long Island is both cooler by summer and is not even a half zone over the city, despite being surrounded by water. 

Sounds like some good observations to me.  I know there are some avid palm growers in the NYC area.  I always knew that area was quite mild, considering.  It's just the length of the sub-freezing temps that can be the wild card.  I'd probably recommend Sabal minors and Needle Palms.  Although, while very hardy palms, the Needle Palms aren't necessarily easy to grow.

Edited October 24, 2023 by RFun

[teddytn]

18 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

NYC is much warmer than the upstate area you were talking about before, summer and winter, and so much less snow. It's like comparing north Orlando or Gaineseville to Miami and Miami Beach for Long Island. A two zone jump (9b to 11a for Miami, 11b for Miami Beach). 5b/6a to 7b with hot summer for NYC, Long Island is just hot enough in summer to also be humid subtropical vs oceanic (>72 F 22 C in July and August). 

1994 is the 20th century 'Big Freeze' for parts of the NE and Midwest comparable to the 60s and 80s freezes in FL. It was Cleveland's record low of -20 F, vs only reaching -17 F in the windy polar dip of February 2015. The ocean helps Long Island more than NYC, it's almost always west wind and it's only open sea to the SE. NYC is the largest non desert UHI and it's below the fall zone protected by hills to the NW. The UHI is stronger than the oceanic influence or Long Island Sound protection as Long Island is both cooler by summer and is not even a half zone over the city, despite being surrounded by water. 

For sure upstate is a completely different animal than the City. Wasn’t trying to compare them, other than…maybe restating even for myself that New York State as a whole is not very conducive to growing palms. All this has an art to it as well as science, meaning it’s hard to explain in linear terms. There’s so many factors involved when trying to consider on paper where a palm will or won’t survive in a cold hardy setting. And absolutely everyone should feel free to plant whatever they want, wherever they want when planning to protect. My ramblings are always aimed at what will survive unprotected. Thank you as always!

[MonkeDonkezz]

On 10/19/2023 at 3:39 PM, CaricaChris said:

Hello MonkeDonkezz!

I know this thread is almost 2 years old, but I think you'd find this post I made on another forum interesting!

https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-home/1110897-estimating-changes-in-usda-hardiness-zones-nerd-post

Take a look at the graph that's attached. If that trend continues, Staten Island will approach 8a right around 2040. Of course, this is my own musings and I'm just an amateur scientist, so take with a grain of salt.

That said, as a fellow zone pushing Staten Islander, we are lucky to be in such a unique microclimate. I think trachycarpus palms are very possible if you plant against a south facing structure and offer some protection. Yucca rostrata easily survives as long as it has good drainage. If you look around, you'll find plenty of examples growing locally (Golden Dove Diner on Richmond Ave has a nice one). I have a satsuma tree planted against a south facing concrete wall that made it through its first winter outdoors, flowered and has 3 fruits that I'm hoping will ripen soon! The only protection I gave it was christmas lights, a frost blanket and two 5 gallon buckets filled with water against the trunk for some thermal mass. We went down to 5 degrees last winter and had an extended 3 day below freezing stretch. I suspect the microclimate that I placed it in and extra protection kept it from dying. As it ages, it should gain more hardiness. Just an example of what you can do! Satsumas are generally considered more cold sensitive than Trachycarpus. Good luck and happy to share my knowledge if you have questions!

Hello! Thanks for replying! I knew we were getting close to zone 8! I have seen many plants that are marginal here do well here, and I have compiled a list that proves that we are getting to 8a.

I have seen 40-50 foot tall southern magnolias, many different yuccas, mostly rostrata and recurvifolia, a seven foot tall bush of canna lilies that comes back each year somehow,  a six foot tall monkey puzzle tree, musa basjoo up to seven feet including a short and well protected specimen who had flowered and made bananas once,  a dracanea tree that has come back from the roots for the past 4 years, and a needle palm that survived 5f in its first year in the ground after being transplanted. My own trachy had survived 4 degrees and severe spear pull, with it growing 6 new leaves during the summer! Sadly, they had removed that giant yucca from the diner last September

 

[RFun]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:50 PM, teddytn said:

For sure upstate is a completely different animal than the City. Wasn’t trying to compare them, other than…maybe restating even for myself that New York State as a whole is not very conducive to growing palms. All this has an art to it as well as science, meaning it’s hard to explain in linear terms. There’s so many factors involved when trying to consider on paper where a palm will or won’t survive in a cold hardy setting. And absolutely everyone should feel free to plant whatever they want, wherever they want when planning to protect. My ramblings are always aimed at what will survive unprotected. Thank you as always!

I see where you are coming from.  Many factors involved than just what one thinks the "growing zone" a palm is hardy to.  And plants certainly don't fit into any "box" that one would try to put them in.  Nature has a lot of built-in randomness to it.  And scientific studies are quite limited, at best.  Real world, practical application and observation is really the only way to go with this kind of stuff.

Edited October 26, 2023 by RFun