Can I grow Royals?

[Victor G.]

I was wondering if I could grow some of the most "susceptible" palms, like the royal palm for example. The location's in Greece, near Athens.

Usually we have a temperate climate (January averages are 9-15 in Celsius, or 48-59 in Fahrenheit). This January the temperatures were considerably lower, because we got hit by an unusually cold wave.

I have attached a temperature chart for this month. Thanks in advance!

[D Palm]

Probably, it will need a ton of water. They grow in swamps of South Florida. Some native specimens grow sitting in water half the year.

[gilles06]

Hi Victor, I think you could try. Greek people from the forum, will confirm...

[Victor G.]

Awesome thank you both for the answers! I'm given to understand it's a pretty hard palm to grow (in terms of coldness). But I think I'll give it a try.
Thanks again!

[DoomsDave]

If you plant royals, give them LOTS AND LOTS OF SPACE, vertical in particular. DON'T plant too near things that might be damaged by the falling leaves when they get large.

[Janni]

 look here. That palm is in Voula, right here: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8371014,23.7702939,3a,75y,14.51h,84.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2AE81-T2fClw_r4LjzcB5Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D2AE81-T2fClw_r4LjzcB5Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D75.17647%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

If you plant royals, give them LOTS AND LOTS OF SPACE, vertical in particular. DON'T plant too near things that might be damaged by the falling leaves when they get large.

Thanks for the advice! Will do

24 minutes ago, Janni said:

 look here. That palm is in Voula, right here: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8371014,23.7702939,3a,75y,14.51h,84.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2AE81-T2fClw_r4LjzcB5Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D2AE81-T2fClw_r4LjzcB5Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D75.17647%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 

Thanks! I've read this entire section through and I believe my area has very similar climate to the Athens riviera. I also saw the Royals on Google Maps.

I just don't know whether they actually thrive in Athens, or if these specific are protected my some sort of microclimate.

You don't see them often because greeks only tend to plant Canary & Washingtonia palms (they literally make up the 99% of palms in Greece)

[DoomsDave]

15 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Thanks for the advice! Will do

Thanks! I've read this entire section through and I believe my area has very similar climate to the Athens riviera. I also saw the Royals on Google Maps.

I just don't know whether they actually thrive in Athens, or if these specific are protected my some sort of microclimate.

You don't see them often because greeks only tend to plant Canary & Washingtonia palms (they literally make up the 99% of palms in Greece)

You're welcome, note the thread I posted yesterday about a Royal that I loved but had to take down.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/72082-butch-is-butchered/

[southathens]

Victor if your data are accurate then you have among the mildest climates in Attica. The entire area around Shinias is very complicated climatologically speaking so I would not be surprised if you could get better results than the Athens Riviera. My only concern is that your station might be overestimating some T's. A good idea would be to try and install a fan aspirated station (ideally a Davis one) if you can afford it. Alternatively you can ask the National Observatory of Athens to see if they are planning to instal a Davis station in your area. 

[D Palm]

A micro climate will only benefit Royals for a few years as they get massive fast. I live in Florida so my knowledge of growing in a dry or dryer climate is very limited. 

[Victor G.]

12 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

You're welcome, note the thread I posted yesterday about a Royal that I loved but had to take down.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/72082-butch-is-butchered/

Oh that's something you do not want to see! (although I believe you had a good reason)

 

1 hour ago, D Palm said:

A micro climate will only benefit Royals for a few years as they get massive fast. I live in Florida so my knowledge of growing in a dry or dryer climate is very limited. 

Yeah, I've heard they grow in Phoenix too, as long as you give them plenty of water

[Victor G.]

7 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Victor if your data are accurate then you have among the mildest climates in Attica. The entire area around Shinias is very complicated climatologically speaking so I would not be surprised if you could get better results than the Athens Riviera. My only concern is that your station might be overestimating some T's. A good idea would be to try and install a fan aspirated station (ideally a Davis one) if you can afford it. Alternatively you can ask the National Observatory of Athens to see if they are planning to instal a Davis station in your area. 

Hey Manos, I have this one installed: https://www.bresser.de/en/Weather-Time/Weather-Center/BRESSER-Professional-WIFI-colour-Weather-Center-5-in-1-V.html

I read a lot of reviews before before buying it (also in Skroutz) and the owners said it's pretty accurate, except in the summer when it's completely wind-free, where it can overestimate the temperature by 1-1,5C.
I've been comparing my temperatures to these three (professional) stations:

Nea Styra: https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/styra/
Nea Makri: https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/neamakri/
Rafina: https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/rafina/

The high tempratures are pretty close every day (consider that Dikastika forms a gulf, so it might trap some hot air) and the night tempratures are usually higher in Dikastika (has to do with the topography of the place, I guess?).
Last year I had a very cheap outside thermometer, but it too, registered higher lows than the other stations in the area. I've also experienced this first hand when I'm there; you can feel the air beeing very slighly warmer when you get out of the car.

You can not trust my wind readings however, I put the device in such a way that it's protected, because we sometimes get crazy wind gusts, and I was afraid it's gonna rip it to pieces.
Didn't put it near walls though, cause that would affect the temperature readings by much.

I do want to buy a Davis station, but they cost around 500-700 euros, so that's a project for the future!
Anyway I was always curious about my lows more than my highs, and the lows you can completely trust.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Victor G.

[southathens]

Thanks for letting me know Victor. Still though I have to stress that your area is pretty complex climatologically speaking. Readings from Nea Makri or Rafina would not be representative. The Shinias HNMS station shows a very unique behavior in terms of summer means due to winds. You might be right about your minimums but the maximums especially in the summer are very complicated in your area. Shinias HNMS station for example has huge Tmax variations in a matter of a few minutes once the winds change especially in the summer.

[Victor G.]

2 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Thanks for letting me know Victor. Still though I have to stress that your area is pretty complex climatologically speaking. Readings from Nea Makri or Rafina would not be representative. The Shinias HNMS station shows a very unique behavior in terms of summer means due to winds. You might be right about your minimums but the maximums especially in the summer are very complicated in your area. Shinias HNMS station for example has huge Tmax variations in a matter of a few minutes once the winds change especially in the summer.

It's true. There's also something interesting happening with rain.

I stayed at Dikastika throughout the summer (about 5 months specifically) in the year 2020 and 2021. Countless times we were going to Nea Makri / Marathonas for supermarket and it was raining, then went back to Dikastika and nothing, not even a drop. Sometimes (rarely though) the sun was shining at Dikastika, while a bit further south rain was pouring!

I've been trying to understand what's going on, and I believe there's a constant air draft coming from Penteli mountain that passes exactly above Nea Makri, bringing clouds and rain.
I think that's the reason Rafina and Dikastika (above and below Nea Makri respectively) manage to stay much drier.

Like I've said before, I'm no expert in this, I just stayed for a long time and was watching the clouds and winds move.

But we're often going to Athens and returning to Dikastika and Nea Makri always has a more cloudy sky.

That being said, Nea Makri gets relatively hot in the summer (it's always 36-37C degrees) while in Dikastika it almost never exceeds 32C.

Anyway, sorry if I bored you, just wanted to share my observations

[Than]

Voula is urban though so concrete will trap and release heat while Dikastika is rural. Also, even though it's in a gulf, it is exposed to the elements, being built on the coastal hills. South Euboean gulf is known for being very windy anyway, which is the reason bananas look so cr*p in Nea Makri with their leaves totally shreded.  I went for a stroll on the beach today and so many palms looked sad, especially some Royals (?) in Marathon. I guess they will recover.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by ego

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, ego said:

Voula is urban though so concrete will trap and release heat while Dikastika is rural. Also, even though it's in a gulf, it is exposed to the elements, being built on the coastal hills. South Euboean gulf is known for being very windy anyway, which is the reason bananas look so cr*p in Nea Makri with their leaves totally shreded.  I went for a stroll on the beach today and so many palms looked sad, especially some Royals (?) in Marathon. I guess they will recover.

 

 

No Royals. Imo this poor look has nothing to do with the wind. It is immo a matter of soil and water quality and ph. Here is a Royal growing in pot in a Glyphada garden.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, ego said:

Voula is urban though so concrete will trap and release heat while Dikastika is rural. Also, even though it's in a gulf, it is exposed to the elements, being built on the coastal hills. South Euboean gulf is known for being very windy anyway, which is the reason bananas look so cr*p in Nea Makri with their leaves totally shreded.  I went for a stroll on the beach today and so many palms looked sad, especially some Royals (?) in Marathon. I guess they will recover.

 

 

But this is tall, meaning it survived there for many years. Probably the snow that fell last week sat on top for a long time and slowly damaged it. Hopefully it will recover.

 

It true, Dikastika is extremely windy. My neighbour has bananas outside all year long and yeah, they do look like crap but they survive excellently. They just don't produce fruit, but that's because they have them in partial shade, in small pots and not taken care of.
I've seen small bananas coming out of plants in Nea Makri and Paralia Marathona but I don't know if they ever became big ripe bananas.

[Than]

21 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

No Royals. Imo this poor look has nothing to do with the wind. It is immo a matter of soil and water quality and ph. Here is a Royal growing in pot in a Glyphada garden.

I didn't say they're like that because of the wind. It's because of the snow. I mentioned the wind as a factor that plays a role in how cold it will get around the palms.

[Phoenikakias]

31 minutes ago, ego said:

I didn't say they're like that because of the wind. It's because of the snow. I mentioned the wind as a factor that plays a role in how cold it will get around the palms.

It is not the snow either! There are in Halandri very nice specimens although it snows there frequently. It has snowed also in my garden, which is a rather cold spot on the southern coast, but the plant did not obtain that poor look. I struggle  of course all year round to keep the plant happy in my alkaline, clay soil. Such adverse conditions make additionally the plant vulnerable to various fungal diseases. Last year I noticed some improvement through the application of chelated iron (suitable for alkaline soil) and pytheum-focused fungicide.

[Victor G.]

@Phoenikakias@ego Just so we're clear, these are all royals where talking about, right?

Because I thought that even slight freezes can kill them, but Chalandri for example may drop down to -1C every other winter.

So, judging by the big trunks, they are doing pretty good in Attica (if these are actually royals)

[tjwalters]

4 hours ago, Victor G. said:

@Phoenikakias@ego Just so we're clear, these are all royals where talking about, right?

Because I thought that even slight freezes can kill them, but Chalandri for example may drop down to -1C every other winter.xcept

So, judging by the big trunks, they are doing pretty good in Attica (if these are actually royals)

These look like queens to me (except for the young potted specimen).

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Victor G. said:

@Phoenikakias@ego Just so we're clear, these are all royals where talking about, right?

Because I thought that even slight freezes can kill them, but Chalandri for example may drop down to -1C every other winter.

So, judging by the big trunks, they are doing pretty good in Attica (if these are actually royals)

No, sorry if I have not made my point clear enough.  All those tall specimens are NOT Royals, but Syagrus romanzoffiana (aka Arecastrum). The talk was about whether recent snow can be held responsible for the poor look of such specimens in New Makri and I expressed my negative opinion. A queen palm would only lough at a -1 C, a real snow damage, cause to a queen by snow at such T, would look like this: (notice how green it is nevertheless). 

[Phoenikakias]

10 hours ago, Victor G. said:

@Phoenikakias@ego Just so we're clear, these are all royals where talking about, right?

Because I thought that even slight freezes can kill them, but Chalandri for example may drop down to -1C every other winter.

So, judging by the big trunks, they are doing pretty good in Attica (if these are actually royals)

If you aim to try a Royal, then I recommend you stay away from a seedling or very young juvenile ( unless there is available a greenhouse or a south facing cold frame for nursing) and buy instead a specimen of outplantable size, which will be planted right in the final spot of your garden during coming May.   http://www.fytoriakoukoutsakis.gr/el/products/foinikoeidi/cuba-palm.html

I understand that your property is on a slope, so it is essential that you level up chosen spot, so that future plant receives and retains enough moisture during summer. A wind protected, sunny one, if possible, would be ideal.

 

[Victor G.]

25 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

If you aim to try a Royal, then I recommend you stay away from a seedling or very young juvenile ( unless there is available a greenhouse or a south facing cold frame for nursing) and buy instead a specimen of outplantable size, which will be planted right in the final spot of your garden during coming May.   http://www.fytoriakoukoutsakis.gr/el/products/foinikoeidi/cuba-palm.html

I understand that your property is on a slope, so it is essential that you level up chosen spot, so that future plant receives and retains enough moisture during summer. A wind protected, sunny one, if possible, would be ideal.

 

It would be ideal to buy an already established one, but they charge extreme prices for such palm, so I guess I'll have to start by seed (no money!)

As for the watering, I would water all summer long, because the area is extremely dry

Thanks for the advice!

[Phoenikakias]

6 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

It would be ideal to buy an already established one, but they charge extreme prices for such palm, so I guess I'll have to start by seed (no money!)

As for the watering, I would water all summer long, because the area is extremely dry

Thanks for the advice!

What amount for a price is regarded extreme? How about 200€ for a tall plant just prior to trunk formation? I strongly suggest that at least you ask the nursery for an offer. Raising a Royal from seed to an outplantable size is really a challenge in our climate.  Seedlings are rather sensitive to cold, they develop fast to tall juveniles and then they develop a disproportianally large root mass compared to girth of stem's base. Root mass and stem's girth matter for a successful outplanting, but by that time, plant will be quite tall and very difficult to be accommodated anywhere but a very tall cold frame (over 2.5 m tall).

[Phoenikakias]

Last year available at a price of 120€ each 

And mine, grown from seed two years ago in my over 2.5 m tall cold frame, now outplanted. Still smaller in stem's girth, than those offered for sale!

Edited February 5, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Last year available at a price of 120€ each 

And mine, grown from seed two years ago in my over 2.5 m tall cold frame, now outplanted. Still smaller in stem's girth, than those offered for sale!

Oh wow, at local (therefore smaller) plant nurseries I always find palm at 200 euros for something much smaller than yours.

Where did you find these prices? Any store recommendation would be very much appreciated!
(If you don't want to advertise, you can send me a private message)

[Phoenikakias]

23 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Oh wow, at local (therefore smaller) plant nurseries I always find palm at 200 euros for something much smaller than yours.

Where did you find these prices? Any store recommendation would be very much appreciated!
(If you don't want to advertise, you can send me a private message)

Sorry can not tell, because it does only wholesale. Better contact the nursery in Crete, you have nothing to lose.

[DeletedAccount14e83d09a24f]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:59 PM, ego said:

Voula is urban though so concrete will trap and release heat while Dikastika is rural. Also, even though it's in a gulf, it is exposed to the elements, being built on the coastal hills. South Euboean gulf is known for being very windy anyway, which is the reason bananas look so cr*p in Nea Makri with their leaves totally shreded.  I went for a stroll on the beach today and so many palms looked sad, especially some Royals (?) in Marathon. I guess they will recover.

 

 

Hello Ego, that one is 100% a Syagrus Romanzoffiana. One with an improper care, that's why it looks like that. 
Roystoneas have thicker trunks, especially at the bottom, and they have much more lines on the trunk as well as the top of their trunk is green.

 

On 2/5/2022 at 8:20 AM, Phoenikakias said:

No, sorry if I have not made my point clear enough.  All those tall specimens are NOT Royals, but Syagrus romanzoffiana (aka Arecastrum). The talk was about whether recent snow can be held responsible for the poor look of such specimens in New Makri and I expressed my negative opinion. A queen palm would only lough at a -1 C, a real snow damage, cause to a queen by snow at such T, would look like this: (notice how green it is nevertheless). 

Wow, that was caused by the snow, by the cold temps, or by a combination of both? What do you think? 
Will those branches "rise up" again or they will remain like that until new ones will grow up? I have never seen a Syagrus like that!

[Than]

7 hours ago, Alicante said:

Hello Ego, that one is 100% a Syagrus Romanzoffiana. One with an improper care, that's why it looks like that. 
Roystoneas have thicker trunks, especially at the bottom, and they have much more lines on the trunk as well as the top of their trunk is green.

 

Wow, that was caused by the snow, by the cold temps, or by a combination of both? What do you think? 
Will those branches "rise up" again or they will remain like that until new ones will grow up? I have never seen a Syagrus like that!

Yes it is a Syagrus, you're right. I wonder what has caused it to be like this. 

[Than]

This is the house in Dikastika I thought was yours. There's one more house in Dikastika with a similar garden full of palms. A red/pink house.

 

 

[Victor G.]

31 minutes ago, ego said:

This is the house in Dikastika I thought was yours. There's one more house in Dikastika with a similar garden full of palms. A red/pink house.

 

 

Ah no, that's not mine (unfortunately!)

That's a bit upper on the hill.

Ours is by the sea, in front of the "mini beach" as it says on Google maps.

I finally found a photo of it! (From above)

[Than]

Aha. Soil is full of big marble stones there. Gardening must be difficult.

[Victor G.]

3 minutes ago, ego said:

Aha. Soil is full of big marble stones there. Gardening must be difficult.

It is...

Everything I've planted grows extremely slowly (even with fertilizer).

Also the soil is very dry there. No matter how much you water, it disappears in seconds (except in winter of course).

It seems to me that it rains a lot less there than Nea Makri. I've installed a weather station this year and will measure that rainfall to see

[Than]

Soil in our area is cr*p. You need extensive soil modification to stand a chance. A friend has a plot here and he cannot even dig it. He tried some easy local trees like sour oranges and they don't grow at all. Basically Attica is a huge rock. 

[Victor G.]

5 minutes ago, ego said:

Soil in our area is cr*p. You need extensive soil modification to stand a chance. A friend has a plot here and he cannot even dig it. He tried some easy local trees like sour oranges and they don't grow at all. Basically Attica is a huge rock. 

I've almost broken my back digging (with tools of course) in Dikastika. 

I have been told it's like desert soil - infertile and full of rocks

[TropicalGardenSpain]

I am growing royals in Alicante, Spain with a similar climate and after a couple of years in the ground they are starting to look great even after winter. The key is plenty of water and fertilizer. They are growing very fast too. 

[GottmitAlex]

On 2/1/2022 at 9:38 AM, DoomsDave said:

If you plant royals, give them LOTS AND LOTS OF SPACE, vertical in particular. DON'T plant too near things that might be damaged by the falling leaves when they get large.

So Royals don't give out any warning signs ahead of time?

Just bombs away!?

[James B]

2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

So Royals don't give out any warning signs ahead of time?

Just bombs away!?

My biggest is only about 17-18 ft tall at the moment. I don’t have issues yet but it’s going to be a monster within the next 4-5 years. The only advantage I have is I am in a drier climate where the leaves may dry more similar to what happens in AZ based on what members have said. But if they don’t I am planning away.

[DoomsDave]

3 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

So Royals don't give out any warning signs ahead of time?

Just bombs away!?

 

1 hour ago, James B said:

My biggest is only about 17-18 ft tall at the moment. I don’t have issues yet but it’s going to be a monster within the next 4-5 years. The only advantage I have is I am in a drier climate where the leaves may dry more similar to what happens in AZ based on what members have said. But if they don’t I am planning away.

Royals (especially Cubans) get so tall you just don’t remember to look up and the leaves on my late Butch weighed about 65-70 pounds when they fell. 

Butch was pushing 50 feet in 18 years. So awesome! So beautiful! And such a pain.