Rehome or Remove My Canary Date Palm Texas?

[Collectorpalms]

So long story short, my CIDP planted 22 years ago, and a 4*F and 5+ days continuously below freezing Campion is set to be removed by the city so they can make the sidewalk wider. 

There are only a handful or 2 of CIDP a hour or 2 radius and we do not have CIDP diseases here. 
 

Originally they were going to cut it down last month, but the project has been put on hold for 8-12 months.

In Texas, land of super $$$$ “haves” and have nots, Ya think anyone/Business would want a CIDP with 15FT of clear trunk and 25FT tall for next to nothing?
 

Pictures are After 2018’s 14/15F so it’s grown a few feet of clear trunk. A chain saw could clean it up nice. 

No utilities overhead or underneath, and next to street. 
 

I am sure most people could care less, but this was my BABY!

[Collectorpalms]

By they way, the City of College Station, Planning Department is also removing every street tree on our avenue and anything within 15/20FT of the new sidewalk. 
So you can see my whole front yard is going to be massacred for the second time, the first the freeze. That huge Live Oak I planted is going too, just because they want a “green way” with a new waterline instead of a tree avenue. 

[ZPalms]

I would fight for my life to keep that tree exactly where it is, They would have to supply a whole move of the tree to think I would just give it up over a sidewalk

[UK_Palms]

46 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

By they way, the City of College Station, Planning Department is also removing every street tree on our avenue and anything within 15/20FT of the new sidewalk. 
So you can see my whole front yard is going to be massacred for the second time, the first the freeze. That huge Live Oak I planted is going too, just because they want a “green way” with a new waterline instead of a tree avenue. 

I am guessing you own your house and pay a mortgage, in which case the city has no right in trying to fell trees on your privately owned land. Unless the tree's overhang on the sidewalk, or a neighbours property, or they encroach a telephone line, or get deemed a danger/risk to other people's property, only then can the city/council have a valid reason to cut stuff down on private property. They certainly can't trespass on your property to cut stuff down, unless you give them permission to, which you obviously shouldn't. 

Regardless of whether they want to make a sidewalk bigger, or do any kind of maintenance on the street, they do not have the legal bounds to just cut down trees on private residences. Doing so without permission from you would surely constitute criminal damage? At least that is the case over here, so I would expect it to be similar in the 'land of the free', of all places. Especially an entire street of trees and anything within 20ft of the sidewalk, which is just ridiculous and beyond excessive. Do you homeowners have zero say in the matter? Can a group of you not campaign?

If some guys from Guildford borough council turned up at my house and tried to cut my palms/trees, I would straight up pepper spray the heck out of them all. And I mean I would empty the entire canister into their faces. Any worker stepping foot on my property, or refusing to leave, is getting choked the F out and having a citizens arrest performed on them, since they would be committing trespass and criminal damage offences. You don't mess with a man's palms, especially on private property. Maybe your situation is different there, but I would stand my ground. Fight tooth and nail... or you can give up and let them cut it all down. 

[Collectorpalms]

@UK__Palms I am sure every city is a little different, and they don’t go buy the books if it’s deemed good for commercial growth in Texas.

There are Public Utilities Easements. Evidently I assumed it was 15ft from street. They actually have it 15FT past the edge of the original waterline that was on the edge of the sidewalk that was 3FT wide with a 3FT grass buffer between street. 
Now it’s going to be just a land of concrete. They already had a bike lane, but they are adding that to the sidewalk so it’s 8-10FT wide. 

The New Waterline goes directly under the CIDP.

It does not go through the Live Oak.

However, in this city if the root zone of a tree is cut, they consider the tree a loss. Live Oak trees which I have could care less. But we use to have Post Oaks (Post oak Savanah), that are nearly all GONE because they are very fickle to development.

With Postage Stamp lots, everything is in an easement and every tree canopy going to be in way once it gets a few years on it. 

It comes down to your Zoning Commission and City board. If This was City of Austin, I have seen them go way way out of their way to save every tree in new developments. Here, it’s just cheaper to bulldoze every hill and native tree and call it a day. 
 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

Look at the dimensions of the street width and the “shared sidewalk use path.” When traffic gets bad, people can just drive on the sidewalk and make it a 4 lane freeway. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[UK_Palms]

@Collectorpalms Why the hell is the waterline even going along the length of everyone's front yards like that anyway? I have never heard of a city council digging up an entire street of people's front yards just to install a waterline like that. Usually they go under the roads, or under the sidewalk, or at least that is the case over here. The water pipes then branch-off vertically to the residences, from the road. It all seems pretty bizarre and a bit intrusive, having to dig up all your yards like that and felling everybody's trees. 

I would say just dig the CIDP out yourself and reposition it in the back yard, but you would need an excavator, pulleys, crane, helpers etc. I mean you're not getting that thing out without 2-3 people helping you and it will probably cost $2000 to hire an excavator and a small crane for 24 hours, as well as a professional machine operator and potentially a third person to assist. Any chance of billing the city to move it for you? Like you guys coming to some kind of arrangement to suit both parties? Surely that is an option?

Either they pay to have the CIDP moved for you, or you straight up refuse them access to your property and any attempt to fell the CIDP will be met with resistance, since it is on private property. Unless you are just renting your house (which I doubt you are since you have been there 20+ years) then surely they have to accommodate the homeowners to some degree, since they would be destroying property. Have they offered to move/relocate anybody's trees for them? Your only other option would be offering someone the CIDP free of charge, but then they will still have to dig it out and shift it themselves, at their own expense. I'm not convinced you'll find someone willing to do that.

[N8ALLRIGHT]

Is there any space on your lot for relocation? I know it is a pretty big task involving sweat and $$$. How well do CIDP transplant? I don't know. On the cheap you could prop up the existing palm like they do newly transplanted palms and rent a small walk behind back hoe. Prep the palm and new hole and then schedule a sign truck when your ducks are in a row. Easier said than done I know but it's definitely doable. Good luck however you go

[Xerarch]

If the city has an easement, they have an easement, not much to do about it.  But a real shame to lose that palm that has been through everything mother nature could throw at it in a marginal climate, only to lose it to the city.

[Collectorpalms]

22 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

If the city has an easement, they have an easement, not much to do about it.  But a real shame to lose that palm that has been through everything mother nature could throw at it in a marginal climate, only to lose it to the city.

Yes. When house was built the street was a one lane side street with parking. Now it will essentially be the equivalent of a 4 lane of course concrete.  I counted 15FT before planting that Canary. I didn’t have a detailed map, just was told 15FT easement from street. So I was ignorant and obviously misinformed. 
But as commented, the water line does run under the current sidewalk but now they are moving it way into center of yard. If they didn’t do that the CIDP wouldn’t be in way.  My only thought was, it was to save them money for repairs as it’s cheaper to dig dirt up than concrete in the future. 
but they can’t even spend a few extra dollars to make an ever so curved waterline. But I guess they would have a physics explanation for that. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[UK_Palms]

32 minutes ago, N8ALLRIGHT said:

How well do CIDP transplant? I don't know. On the cheap you could prop up the existing palm like they do newly transplanted palms and rent a small walk behind back hoe. Prep the palm and new hole and then schedule a sign truck when your ducks are in a row. Easier said than done I know but it's definitely doable. Good luck however you go

Bigger CIDP's do not transplant very well from what I have seen. Smaller CIDP's transplant pretty well, however most big ones end up suffering major transplant shock and going into decline, unless the transplant is done impeccably. I can only assume that is due to the roots being disturbed, in which case it is absolutely vital to get as big a rootball as possible with bigger specimens. I think they need a ton of water at that size and the severed roots will not be able to provide it with sufficient water, especially as spring and summer looms.

So an excavator and crane with pulleys will be vital in moving a CIDP of this size, since you will need a massive rootball too. The rootball alone will probably weigh 1-2 tons if done properly. If you sever most of the roots and don't get a big enough rootball, or dirtball, the palm will be severely stressed going into the Texas summer and probably go into decline. I have seen quite a few big specimens in London and southern England that have been dug up and transplanted large, which failed to settle in and they end up looking like crap for years. Ideally you won't transplant a big specimen, period, but in Ryan's case he doesn't have a choice. Either that or it gets chopped down. 

[Collectorpalms]

44 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Bigger CIDP's do not transplant very well from what I have seen. Smaller CIDP's transplant pretty well, however most big ones end up suffering major transplant shock and going into decline, unless the transplant is done impeccably. I can only assume that is due to the roots being disturbed, in which case it is absolutely vital to get as big a rootball as possible with bigger specimens. I think they need a ton of water at that size and the severed roots will not be able to provide it with sufficient water, especially as spring and summer looms.

So an excavator and crane with pulleys will be vital in moving a CIDP of this size, since you will need a massive rootball too. The rootball alone will probably weigh 1-2 tons if done properly. If you sever most of the roots and don't get a big enough rootball, or dirtball, the palm will be severely stressed going into the Texas summer and probably go into decline. I have seen quite a few big specimens in London and southern England that have been dug up and transplanted large, which failed to settle in and they end up looking like crap for years. Ideally you won't transplant a big specimen, period, but in Ryan's case he doesn't have a choice. Either that or it gets chopped down. 

Since this area doesn’t save trees and never ever moved a CIDP of this size, and yes a 1-2 ton root ball is low end with clay soil, it’s a massive undertaking without experts. I have seen the YouTube videos so I know what can go wrong with big palms. Popped heads off etc.. 
I put the the survival rate at less than 50 percent with all advise taken, unless I can find a real expert. 50/50 is just such a horrible position to be in with $$$ to do it. I was expecting maybe 10K. If 2k heck yea.

I am not sure getting a new one from Houston or California and introducing diseases to the city is going to happen. I have another in back yard ( north side so it had some moderate trunk erosion from the freeze) And there is another about a mile away at the Hilton Hotel in very nice Microclimate. Some smaller ones dotted around but none very old. 
i think there are 6 total with 10FT or more trunk I know of in our County of 250K people. 
 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[UK_Palms]

4 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Since this area doesn’t save trees and never ever moved a CIDP of this size, and yes a 1-2 ton root ball is low end with clay soil, it’s a massive undertaking without experts. I have seen the YouTube videos so I know what can go wrong with big palms. Popped heads off etc.. 
I put the the survival rate at less than 50 percent with all advise taken, unless I can find a real expert. 50/50 is just such a horrible position to be in with $$$ to do it. I was expecting maybe 10K. If 2k heck yea.

I am not sure getting a new one from Houston or California and introducing diseases to the city is going to happen. I have another in back yard ( north side so it had some moderate trunk erosion from the freeze) And there is another about a mile away at the Hilton Hotel in very nice Microclimate. Some smaller ones dotted around but none very old. 
i think there are 6 total with 10FT or more trunk I know of in our County of 250K people. 

 

Yeah it's a real ball ache for anyone to remove a medium-big CIDP, even those buying it. Never $10k to dig out and reposition though, surely. More like $2-3k. You will need an excavator for two days really, since you will spend most of the first day just digging a 6 x 6 hole, prepping it to the right dimensions, adding compost and sand substrate to base, loading up excavated soil etc. The soil that is dug out of the new spot will then have to be loaded somewhere carefully, so you can obviously dispose of it when you backfill the hole out front when the CIDP comes out. That is a factor that is often overlooked when people are planning or budgeting a big palm move. 

You'll probably be able to start digging the CIDP out that same day, but that will take hours in itself, so you won't be able to dig it out properly all the way, or lift it up with the crane until the following day due to daylight limitations. You definitely don't want to be lifting, moving or positioning anything after sunset. The excavator will be needed on the second day to help the crane lift the CIDP and to help position it in the new back yard spot. You will also need the excavator to backfill the new hole out front later that day. After all that work moving the CIDP, you don't want to be filling the hole out front by hand. So 2 days hire for the excavator and a day for the crane with a professional operating it.

If you're feeling confident, you can hire the excavator and do the digging on the first day yourself as well as the backfilling of the hole out front and you will obviously have to pay a professional crane operator to do the lifting and repositioning for you. I seriously doubt can legally hire out and operate a crane without training or a license, not that I would even trust myself to use a crane to move a CIDP. Depending how much cash you have you may want to get a professional excavator operator too, if you want to get it done quicker and if you don't want to tear your yard up either. I reckon on the cheap end you can do it for $2k, but if you want the best job done and to maximise survival chances it will probably cost you $3-4k. Never $10k.  

[Kentuckypalms]

Such a shame, There really are so few palms here at all that aren't sabals.

[Tyrone]

Large CIDP's transplant well, but you need a semi trailer truck, a crane, digging equipment etc etc and people who know what they're doing to transport it all without the crown breaking off. Each metre of trunk is about a tonne (1000kg), plus the soil base, plus the crown on top. Many tonnes of weight. Expensive work. 

I hate it when these things happen though. As far as the pipeline is concerned, over here they just drill it underground. They don't normally excavate a trench. But possibly they want the area clear of roots to do that. 

Sorry for your loss. 

[UK_Palms]

9 hours ago, Tyrone said:

Large CIDP's transplant well, but you need a semi trailer truck, a crane, digging equipment etc etc and people who know what they're doing to transport it all without the crown breaking off. Each metre of trunk is about a tonne (1000kg), plus the soil base, plus the crown on top. Many tonnes of weight. Expensive work. 

I hate it when these things happen though. As far as the pipeline is concerned, over here they just drill it underground. They don't normally excavate a trench. But possibly they want the area clear of roots to do that. 

Sorry for your loss. 

Large CIDP’s transplant well when you have professional palm moving services like you get in California, Australia and Southern Europe. I know they move palms all the time in these places, so there is an actual profession in digging up palms and transporting them safely and effectively with all the proper equipment and procedures, which almost guarantees their survival and keeps the crown intact most of the time. I have seen the videos of professionals moving huge specimens in Melbourne and Auckland. 

It’s slightly different when you have to actually use the extractor yourself and hire Bob the local crane guy to help lift it up and reposition it. Roots will likely get damaged and the palm stressed more than it should be, since you aren’t experienced in that sort of thing. I have seen it all before with bigger transplants over here. The whole operation will obviously take longer as well, compared to having a skilled, professional palm moving service doing it. Unfortunately these professional services aren’t really an option in non-palmy places where a lot of us live. The only positive I suppose is that it will be cheaper doing most of it yourself. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by UK_Palms

[Tyrone]

9 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Large CIDP’s transplant well when you have professional palm moving services like you get in California, Australia and Southern Europe. I know they move palms all the time in these places, so there is an actual profession in digging up palms and transporting them safely and effectively with all the proper equipment and procedures, which almost guarantees their survival and keeps the crown intact most of the time. I have seen the videos of professionals moving huge specimens in Melbourne and Auckland. 

It’s slightly different when you have to actually use the extractor yourself and hire Bob the local crane guy to help lift it up and reposition it. Roots will likely get damaged and the palm stressed more than it should be, since you aren’t experienced in that sort of thing. I have seen it all before with bigger transplants over here. The whole operation will obviously take longer as well, compared to having a skilled, professional palm moving service doing it. Unfortunately these professional services aren’t really an option in non-palmy places where a lot of us live. The only positive I suppose is that it will be cheaper doing most of it yourself. 

Exactly. Over here though, there are heaps of palm destroyer services. Only big palm nurseries know how to move big cidps. Others just cut em up.

[Allen]

Can a tree spade be used?  Probably not big enough?? I see them around here from time to time moving big stuff?  I'm ignorant on moving a big palm though.  I think it needs a crane.

http://www.treesoftexas.com/index.htm

Some ideas

https://www.facebook.com/TreeSpade/

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Allen

[DoomsDave]

@Collectorpalms try and find a home for your gorgeous specimen. There’s still a chance.

[Las Palmas Norte]

A wider sidewalk? Pedestrians have gotta lose some weight.

[Collectorpalms]

9 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

A wider sidewalk? Pedestrians have gotta lose some weight.

I’ll point that out in my meeting with the project manager. 

[UK_Palms]

10 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I’ll point that out in my meeting with the project manager. 

The ‘project’ manager? They’re only putting in a bloody waterline! Seems like they are making more fuss then needed, probably to use up their remaining budget or something. The whole thing sounds ridiculous. 

[Collectorpalms]

31 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

The ‘project’ manager? They’re only putting in a bloody waterline! Seems like they are making more fuss then needed, probably to use up their remaining budget or something. The whole thing sounds ridiculous. 

I counted 279 mature trees that are marked for removal, some of them are native trees that are older than the town. 
That 279 trees are only large trees. That is not medium trees under a certain caliber, shrubs, etc… 

the whole avenue is only 1 mile long. 

I took a look at current project, it’s just a side street but you can lane a jumbo jet on it. 
 

What they did do was lie to me. When they rezoned the lot next door they were required so many street trees and shrubs to hide the development, all those are going too. I have all the written proof on this…

only can relocate palm to two locations. Neither are easy. One require the largest live oak to be removed. ( huge roots). Move it to back center of yard just beyond the Easement is a safe zone.  The other would go to a safe zone between where two washingtonia are, they are dead but both are going to have massive root systems. I may have them removed shortly depending on cost. 
Tree cutters typically pass on palms, don’t like to cut palms, they pass. It messes up their chainsaws. As for the city and the canary and big live oak,  I am Sure they would just use a bulldozer. I saw them do it to mature trees. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[floridaPalmMan]

58 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I counted 279 mature trees that are marked for removal, some of them are native trees that are older than the town. 

the whole avenue is only 1 mile long. 

That just made me feel like Yoda when all the Jedi were killed. Hurts my heart

[Collectorpalms]

Checked with a professional tree service in Austin, about 90 miles away. I checked on a recent Canary that had been moved to a nursery. It was in the process of death. Root ball was too small, and right now soil temperature is too low anyhow. But still not good.

[D Palm]

Have you spoke with the zoning board? That’s where I would start. They should have meetings open to the public and post them in the local paper. I attend mine as needed.