Hardiness zone changes 1990-2015

[MarkbVet]

3 hours ago, Xerarch said:

 

In the grand scheme of things I say yes to both counts above here.  The duration of the Feb '21 Texas freeze was incredible, it's why even down here in Corpus the damage was much more severe than I would have expected by just looking at the ultimate low.  But just because a CIDP in TX can survive 4 degrees doesn't mean it will survive anywhere in zone 7, let alone 7a.  On a larger scale, the TX freeze was brief because it was a single event (albeit a week-long single event), whereas in zone 7 you might also have an ultimate low of 4 degrees, but throughout the season you also probably had two freezes of 8 degrees, and handful at 10 or 12, and a multitude of freezes in the teens stretched over a lengthy winter, and a CIDP just won't take that, very few palms will without protection.  That's why palm diversity really starts opening up at 9a, even if a zone 9 can experience zone 7 or 8 temps from time to time.

I'm in zone 8, a very stable zone 8, where it is uncommon to get even to 10F and most years not that low (and if so, only briefly).  We'll have a week or two in the teens or 20's now and then, and most of the winter in 30s and 40's F.    I'm thinkin' about trying a CIDP esp. when I move south where there's a lot less winter wet, and hotter summers, mediterranean climate.   They're beautiful trees, and Medford Oregon has less risk of extreme weather than Dallas Texas.  Based on what I'm seeing/hearing here, I'm more hopeful for CIDP than I was before.   It's gotta have a better chance than my other 'favorite' palm, Bismarckia. 

[MarkbVet]

5 hours ago, Little Tex said:

well CDIP have longer tolerance

Can you give me any experience you've had with how cold they can survive, once established?   What sort of conditions they get exposed to in your area etc?  Love to hear success stories!  

[Xenon]

1 minute ago, MarkbVet said:

I'm in zone 8, a very stable zone 8, where it is uncommon to get even to 10F and most years not that low (and if so, only briefly).  We'll have a week or two in the teens or 20's now and then, and most of the winter in 30s and 40's F.    I'm thinkin' about trying a CIDP esp. when I move south where there's a lot less winter wet, and hotter summers, mediterranean climate.   They're beautiful trees, and Medford Oregon has less risk of extreme weather than Dallas Texas.  Based on what I'm seeing/hearing here, I'm more hopeful for CIDP than I was before.   It's gotta have a better chance than my other 'favorite' palm, Bismarckia. 

CIDP gets foliage burn in low 20s and can completely defoliate 17-18F even though bud hardiness is in the single digits. There's a reason why you rarely see them beyond a warm 8b. 

[MarkbVet]

2 minutes ago, Xenon said:

CIDP gets foliage burn in low 20s and can completely defoliate 17-18F even though bud hardiness is in the single digits. There's a reason why you rarely see them beyond a warm 8b. 

Ah.... still surprised, then, that the CIDP in that devastated Texas yard survived 4F and had a full crown of intact leaves (unless enough time had passed to regrow them all?) Seems...unusually hardy

[Xenon]

Just now, MarkbVet said:

Ah.... still surprised, then, that the CIDP in that devastated Texas yard survived 4F and had a full crown of intact leaves (unless enough time had passed to regrow them all?) Seems...unusually hardy

All new leaves regenerated within the past year. No idea how super long southern US growing season would translate to your much cooler conditions (though it would seem CIDP doesn't need much heat)

[MarkbVet]

35 minutes ago, Xenon said:

All new leaves regenerated within the past year. No idea how super long southern US growing season would translate to your much cooler conditions (though it would seem CIDP doesn't need much heat)

Well, in Medford area it's often >80F (at least some days) from May to Sept....and in 90'sF to over 100F in July-Aug, sometimes in june and sept also.   Hottest part of the state.  A big diff with southeast U.S. is much lower humidity, so night time temp drops are more dramatic (and more comfortable lol).  It can be 100F in day time, and mid 60's at night.  So that less-hot night air could slow some palms, especially Sabals.  Not sure about CIDP though.   But I'd readily accept having leaves burned off once every few years (or less often) if they grow back within the year... it would be like having a deciduous tree (in the worst winters).  If the plant can survive, and grow, I'm all in.  

Edited February 23, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Little Tex]

Well there are some CDIP in Brookings Oregon

[MarkbVet]

3 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

Well there are some CDIP in Brookings Oregon

Oh yes I've seen them, last summer on vacation!  When I was a kid and visited Brookings regularly, there were no exotic plants.  Now there's a ton of 'em....   but it's zone 9 there, so just about everything survives in brookings.  Inland So. Oregon is hotter, drier, but gets colder in winter.  

[Collectorpalms]

4 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Ah.... still surprised, then, that the CIDP in that devastated Texas yard survived 4F and had a full crown of intact leaves (unless enough time had passed to regrow them all?) Seems...unusually hardy

1 year has past. The dead palms were just removed this week. The reason the leaves look so brown was because the sun was rising and casting a strange effect. I decided it was appropriate considering the situation. It is somewhat yellow from 22F but not like the picture.

This is April 2021 after the freeze. Just when I realized it was alive with green coming up. It flushed all new leaves at the end of April. 
 

Sorry it’s really bad. At that time I was ready to move. I got sick and didn’t do yard work till this winter.

Not to mention the cost of removing the palms was not cheap. It took heavy equipment, 3 chain saws, 10 men. And two full size dump trucks. I removed the smaller palms and plants myself. I still have a few big palms in my courtyard that will be risky to remove. So it’s not over yet.   Plus the ones near street, including this Canary, the city are to remove to expand the sidewalk. I am not paying to remove those. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[MarkbVet]

13 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

1 year has past. The dead palms were just removed this week. The reason the leaves look so brown was because the sun was rising and casting a strange effect. I decided it was appropriate considering the situation. It is somewhat yellow from 22F but not like the picture.

This is April 2021 after the freeze. Just when I realized it was alive with green coming up. It flushed all new leaves at the end of April. 
 

Sorry it’s really bad. At that time I was ready to move. I got sick and didn’t do yard work till this winter.

Not to mention the cost of removing the palms was not cheap. It took heavy equipment, 3 chain saws, 10 men. And two full size dump trucks.

Wow..... sorry to see all those dead trees... very good sized plants too, a lot of work and love went into growing those babies.   You must have been stoked when the CIDP showed signs of life!   Are you going to move it back into the yard a bit to save it from the sidewalk?  Of course, your Yucca rostrata is happy as a clam, no meager 4F is gonna stop it!   :-)    Did I see correctly that your Pindo palm survived too? 

Edited February 23, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Collectorpalms]

4 hours ago, Xenon said:

All new leaves regenerated within the past year. No idea how super long southern US growing season would translate to your much cooler conditions (though it would seem CIDP doesn't need much heat)

Washingtonia, Trachycarpus, Canaries start growing early probably when soil temperature is low 60s. Usually March to April here. 

[Collectorpalms]

3 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Wow..... sorry to see all those dead trees... very good sized plants too, a lot of work and love went into growing those babies.   You must have been stoked when the CIDP showed signs of life!   Are you going to move it back into the yard a bit to save it from the sidewalk?  Of course, your Yucca rostrata is happy as a clam, no meager 4F is gonna stop it!   :-)    Did I see correctly that your Pindo palm survived too? 

I have no pindos, they don't work in my soil and neither to Trachycarpus. all my mules died. One had about 10 feet of trunk. Most were wrapped too.

I planted some pindos at the River about 1/2 lived. All with 4-6 feet of trunk, all smaller canaries and pindos died. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[MarkbVet]

1 minute ago, Collectorpalms said:

Washingtonia, Trachycarpus, Canaries start growing early probably when soil temperature is low 60s. Usually March to April here. 

What is your climate zone there?  

[MarkbVet]

On 2/20/2022 at 8:46 PM, Chester B said:

Are you talking the palm to the right of the big palmetto?  It’s a Butia. 

He's said he doesn't have any Butias... they don't grow well for him there... I'll  have to ask him what that is.

[MarkbVet]

4 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I have no pindos, they don't work in my soil and neither to Trachycarpus. all my mules died. One had about 10 feet of trunk. Most were wrapped too.

I planted some pindos at the River about 1/2 lived. All with 4-6 feet of trunk, all smaller canaries and pindos died. 

What is the palm tree to the right of the big palmetto in the photo...toward the back of the yard?   Looks alive...

[Collectorpalms]

4 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

What is the palm tree to the right of the big palmetto in the photo...toward the back of the yard?   Looks alive...

The big looking palmetto isn’t a palmetto, at least it’s crown is almost 1.5 times my other two palmettos. But the one you are referring to is a seed grown Texas Sabal. 

Official climate record. Airport that is about 4 miles southwest of me, which can be a little warmer or cooler depending on wind is zone 9a. Average of 22F. That includes last winter. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[MarkbVet]

4 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

The big looking palmetto isn’t a palmetto, at least it’s crown is almost 1.5 times my other two palmettos. But the one you are referring to is a seed grown Texas Sabal. 

Official climate record. Airport that is about 4 miles southwest of me, which can be a little warmer or cooler depending on wind is zone 9a. Average of 22F. That includes last winter. 

Wow, I would have sworn that palm in the back looks like it has pinnate leaves, but hard to tell from the photo I guess.  What do you think your oversized 'palmetto' is?  Hybrid?

Edited February 23, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Collectorpalms]

15 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Wow, I would have sworn that palm in the back looks like it has pinnate leaves, but hard to tell from the photo I guess.  What do you think your oversized 'palmetto' is?  Hybrid?

I wish I knew. You would assume it’s a Texas Sabal, but it’s not. It has a normal seed size. It is a reclaimed Sabal I purchased. I wish I knew more. It’s hardiness is a tad less than Palmetto but more than Texas Sabal.

I am not a huge believer in Hybrid Sabals but maybe there are a couple more distant ones that cross in Florida. I imagine it’s 50 plus years old. Planted there 20 years ago. Cost me about $400 with installation and 90 miles one way delivery at the time. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[MarkbVet]

5 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I wish I knew. You would assume it’s a Texas Sabal, but it’s not. It has a normal seed size. It is a reclaimed Sabal I purchased. I wish I knew more. It’s hardiness is a tad less than Palmetto but more than Texas Sabal.

I am not a huge believer in Hybrid Sabals but maybe there are a couple more distant ones that cross in Florida. I imagine it’s 50 plus years old. Planted there 20 years ago. Cost me $225 at the time. 

I'm getting a S. brazoriensis which is of course supposedly an old hybrid.  Hoping it is hardy and grows at a decent pace.    So your S. texana/mexicana isn't as hardy as your S. palmettos?  What is its bottom temp tolerance do you think?   Thanks, M

[Collectorpalms]

30 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

I'm getting a S. brazoriensis which is of course supposedly an old hybrid.  Hoping it is hardy and grows at a decent pace.    So your S. texana/mexicana isn't as hardy as your S. palmettos?  What is its bottom temp tolerance do you think?   Thanks, M

That’s what the DNA says. 
Sabal minor grows alongside Sabal Brazoria and they do not hybridize. Sabal minor Grows along side Palmetto but does not hybridize.

But if this was ever the case of a Palmetto x Mexicana. This one could make the case. Right location (Houston where east meets west) and age pre 1960s, that it could have happened in Texas. 
My pure Mexicana never damaged before. Until last year it was nearly defoliated while palmetto was nearly green.

[Little Tex]

6 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I planted some pindos at the River about 1/2 lived. All with 4-6 feet of trunk, all smaller canaries and pindos died. 

pictures?

[Collectorpalms]

14 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

pictures?

Sabal Brazoria next to Pindo, a more silvery one.

[Collectorpalms]

Canary recovery 11 months. Sabal Uresana, and very green Everglades palm recovery from roots. Monterey Live Oak, Yucca Rostrata, Hiden Green Med Palm single, and dead Washingtonia (Removed 2/18/22). Interesting it sent out a flower stalk in the spring.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[GoatLockerGuns]

19 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Well, CIDP are usually rated reliable only into zone 9,  possibly a little into zone 8, but 4F is down into lower zone 7.   Didn't expect ANY date palms (including canaries) to survive that.  My only guess is it was a brief dip to that low temp, then right back up.

Most of the mature CIDPs survived here in the San Antonio area.  Most (but not all) of the Phoenix dactylifera bit the dust (a few looked like they were pushing new growth early on; but I do believe any around where I live made it to mid-summer before succumbing).  There is a Phoenix dactylifera planted in a yard in the King William District of San Antonio that survived though.  It is planted right next to the San Antonio river on the southern Riverwalk section (you can see it from the back deck of the Blue Star Complex - https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4103827,-98.4951631,3a,47.8y,3.13h,90.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swYHHujgWEI05gkdrzmB_RA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DwYHHujgWEI05gkdrzmB_RA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D63.78662%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Ironically, this Google Maps picture was taken in February of 2021 (probably right before the freeze event).  I was just there last Friday, and it does not look that good anymore; however, there are like 7 or 8 solid fronds growing from the top.

I recorded overnight lows of 6F and 9F on two nights during the February 2021 freeze event with an ambient thermometer on my back porch (Northwest Bexar County; back porch is Southwest facing; approximately 1300' elevation).  Like @Collectorpalms said, there were multiple days below freezing.  Also, it was a wet cold, with approximately 2" of snow on my property for at least a couple of days.  The mature CIDPs around where I live went unprotected.  They suffered complete defoliation, but most had solid new growth showing by late March/early April.

[MarkbVet]

15 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Most of the mature CIDPs survived here in the San Antonio area.  Most (but not all) of the Phoenix dactylifera bit the dust (a few looked like they were pushing new growth early on; but I do believe any around where I live made it to mid-summer before succumbing).  There is a Phoenix dactylifera planted in a yard in the King William District of San Antonio that survived though.  It is planted right next to the San Antonio river on the southern Riverwalk section (you can see it from the back deck of the Blue Star Complex - https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4103827,-98.4951631,3a,47.8y,3.13h,90.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swYHHujgWEI05gkdrzmB_RA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DwYHHujgWEI05gkdrzmB_RA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D63.78662%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Ironically, this Google Maps picture was taken in February of 2021 (probably right before the freeze event).  I was just there last Friday, and it does not look that good anymore; however, there are like 7 or 8 solid fronds growing from the top.

I recorded overnight lows of 6F and 9F on two nights during the February 2021 freeze event with an ambient thermometer on my back porch (Northwest Bexar County; back porch is Southwest facing; approximately 1300' elevation).  Like @Collectorpalms said, there were multiple days below freezing.  Also, it was a wet cold, with approximately 2" of snow on my property for at least a couple of days.  The mature CIDPs around where I live went unprotected.  They suffered complete defoliation, but most had solid new growth showing by late March/early April.

Y'all are givin' me hope!    Fun fun fun....    (rubs hands in fiendish glee)  

[MarkbVet]

@Collectorpalms so your everglade palm proved cold hardy even though it died back to the ground.  Not familiar with those..is it the low one resembling C. humilis in front? 

[Collectorpalms]

3 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

@Collectorpalms so your everglade palm proved cold hardy even though it died back to the ground.  Not familiar with those..is it the low one resembling C. humilis in front? 

Yes, but It’s right on the line of the new sidewalk so it’s probably ( who’s kidding ), its going to be removed by the city. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[GoatLockerGuns]

7 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Y'all are givin' me hope! 

Also, this Phoenix sps. clump is planted at the Riverwalk (north end, between Downtown and The Pearl).  This photo was taken on August 22, 2021.  The clump was much larger before the February freeze event, with nice trunking specimens (I wish I had taken an earlier picture in its full glory).  It looks like it died back to the ground, but recovered from the clump.  I think it is Phoenix reclinata.  I do not think it got as cold here as it did at my property (lower elation, radiant heat from a wall, next to the river, urban heat bubble, etc); however, it probably hit high single digits/low teens (Fahrenheit) here.

[MarkbVet]

11 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Yes, but It’s right on the line of the new sidewalk so it’s probably ( who’s kidding ), its going to be removed by the city. 

can you move it back?

[Collectorpalms]

25 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

can you move it back?

I have no idea of success rate. I have an Arenga Micrantha, 6ft Sago Palm, 6ft Single Silver Med Fan, 4 Yucca Rostratas, my favorite oleander to move waiting for spring weather. Canary probably Way too costly and risky to move. I could probably buy a lot of new plants to just move 1. Plus I do have another large Canary in back yard. Will have to see on the Canary I have a few months left to find a taker or mover.

Pictures February 2020.

EVERYTHING in Above picture dead or going to be gone.

EVERYTHING in above picture dead or going to be removed.

Yucca Rostrata can be saved.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

8 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Also, this Phoenix sps. clump is planted at the Riverwalk (north end, between Downtown and The Pearl).  This photo was taken on August 22, 2021.  The clump was much larger before the February freeze event, with nice trunking specimens (I wish I had taken an earlier picture in its full glory).  It looks like it died back to the ground, but recovered from the clump.  I think it is Phoenix reclinata.  I do not think it got as cold here as it did at my property (lower elation, radiant heat from a wall, next to the river, urban heat bubble, etc); however, it probably hit high single digits/low teens (Fahrenheit) here.

That is what I believe it is, mine came back and looked like that. Riverwalk was around 12F in the warmest areas. The more open areas to street level were around 10F. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[James B]

The data is already 7 years old (2015) but I find it a bit surprising over 90% of California did not see any zone change.

The zones are a bit more interactive on certain online sites and account a bit better for certain microclimates. But I'd say most of Socal south of the San Gabriels and West of the San Bernardino Mountains is 10a at this point. According to the map posted most is 9B.