Washingtonia Filibusta - Fayetteville NC

[knikfar]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:32 PM, Will Simpson said:

Thanks for the plants Knikfar . I appreciate the 2 extra you gave me . 

Here's a picture of them .

Will

 

They look great Will! And you are very welcome for the extras. Got treat my palm besties well.

[WSimpson]

Knikfar , can you respond to my new  post about how you are going to grow your small seedlings to a more mature size . I really don't want to kill my new seedlings from you . Maybe you're  also new to palm seedlings too , but I bet you have more experience with seedlings than I do .

Thanks ,

Will

Edited March 8, 2022 by Will Simpson

[knikfar]

2 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

Knikfar , can you respond to my new  post about how you are going to grow your small seedlings to a more mature size . I really don't want to kill my new seedlings from you . Maybe you're  also new to palm seedlings too , but I bet you have more experience with seedlings than I do .

Thanks ,

Will

I'm on it! 

[Nomad NYC]

Thanks to the incredibly helpful, friendly and generous  ZPalms, I was able to get a hold of my very own batch of seeds - which I managed too germinate as well!

As you can see, I used the baggy method, sown the seeds on the 21st of March, and started to sprout  five days later!

For some reason, I've never had much luck germinating Washintonia seeds n the past - even the fresh ripe ones I collected on my many trips to Orlando, Florida.

This is the first time I managed to sprout so many seedlings at one time! 

[BeyondTheGarden]

I've been doing some research on Fayetteville.  It gets downright cold, on the minimum side of 8a or maybe even 7b.  Not that "USDA zone" means much of anything.  

Past 10 year minimums:

2012: 20f

2013: 21f

2014:  9f

2015: 9f

2016: 18f

2017: 14f

2018: 9f

2019: 21f

2020: 22f

2021:  22f 

How on earth have these palms (and cycad) survived?  Back to back seemingly fatal temperatures. 

[ZPalms]

5 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I've been doing some research on Fayetteville.  It gets downright cold, on the minimum side of 8a or maybe even 7b.  Not that "USDA zone" means much of anything.  

Past 10 year minimums:

2012: 20f

2013: 21f

2014:  9f

2015: 9f

2016: 18f

2017: 14f

2018: 9f

2019: 21f

2020: 22f

2021:  22f 

How on earth have these palms (and cycad) survived?  Back to back seemingly fatal temperatures. 

I think having that nightclub for many years to acclimate to the climate and having the wall they grew against to help them grow to maturity really helped. The soil on the lot is pure construction clay, but they have sailed right through ice storms, snow, and below-freezing temperatures three years after the building was demolished. I'm sure it has something to do with the urban heat island effect, but wouldn't it be neat if the environmental factors passed to the offspring.

[BeyondTheGarden]

I see.  Looks like they dozed it in '18 or 19, and the palms were right up against it, on the SW side.  

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, ZPalms said:

... but wouldn't it be neat if the environmental factors passed to the offspring.

Some others and I here are about to find out. I've planted some small seedlings but don't expect them to make a winter. Others will be grown on before being planted out.

[knikfar]

11 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

I've been doing some research on Fayetteville.  It gets downright cold, on the minimum side of 8a or maybe even 7b.  Not that "USDA zone" means much of anything.  

Past 10 year minimums:

2012: 20f

2013: 21f

2014:  9f

2015: 9f

2016: 18f

2017: 14f

2018: 9f

2019: 21f

2020: 22f

2021:  22f 

How on earth have these palms (and cycad) survived?  Back to back seemingly fatal temperatures. 

Those temps are probably from Fayetteville's airport. Just guessing on that. But most of the time, the airport temps are slightly lower than temps in the actual city. Definitely true here in Raleigh. Often by as much as 5 degrees. And the cycads are tough. They grow here in Raleigh in completely unprotected spots. Their fronds will burn in cold winters and/or when there is ice but they just push out new ones the following season. They really are remarkable plants and tougher than people think. 

[knikfar]

11 hours ago, ZPalms said:

I think having that nightclub for many years to acclimate to the climate and having the wall they grew against to help them grow to maturity really helped. The soil on the lot is pure construction clay, but they have sailed right through ice storms, snow, and below-freezing temperatures three years after the building was demolished. I'm sure it has something to do with the urban heat island effect, but wouldn't it be neat if the environmental factors passed to the offspring.

I bet that construction clay is pretty shallow. Fayetteville is in the sand hills so I suspect its mostly sand beneath that clay. I'm sure that helps. 

[ZPalms]

12 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Some others and I here are about to find out. I've planted some small seedlings but don't expect them to make a winter. Others will be grown on before being planted out.

so sad, natural selection of the strongest 😭

[Las Palmas Norte]

9 hours ago, knikfar said:

Those temps are probably from Fayetteville's airport. Just guessing on that. But most of the time, the airport temps are slightly lower than temps in the actual city. 

That seems to be true in most cases I've noticed. Very rarely are the airport temps warmer.

[ZPalms]

I'm just shocked it lived through freezing rain storm

[BeyondTheGarden]

15 hours ago, knikfar said:

Those temps are probably from Fayetteville's airport. Just guessing on that. But most of the time, the airport temps are slightly lower than temps in the actual city. Definitely true here in Raleigh. Often by as much as 5 degrees. And the cycads are tough. They grow here in Raleigh in completely unprotected spots. Their fronds will burn in cold winters and/or when there is ice but they just push out new ones the following season. They really are remarkable plants and tougher than people think. 

They're from the Fayetteville Public Works Commission.  

I've been searching the greater Fayetteville area, looking for microclimates.  Laurinburg and Lumberton generally stay a few degrees warmer it seems.  Unless you get over a lot closer to the coast.  Fayetteville is kind of in the middle of the "southern coastal plains" in terms of minimum temps.  I think I'm going to be a little more limited on what I can grow there, than here.  The biggest positive though is the heat and humidity, and the overall growth volume that can be put on during the summer, compared to here where things grow more slowly.  

[SeanK]

5 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

They're from the Fayetteville Public Works Commission.  

I've been searching the greater Fayetteville area, looking for microclimates.  Laurinburg and Lumberton generally stay a few degrees warmer it seems.  Unless you get over a lot closer to the coast.  Fayetteville is kind of in the middle of the "southern coastal plains" in terms of minimum temps.  I think I'm going to be a little more limited on what I can grow there, than here.  The biggest positive though is the heat and humidity, and the overall growth volume that can be put on during the summer, compared to here where things grow more slowly.  

Kinston temps seem amiss.

[knikfar]

7 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

They're from the Fayetteville Public Works Commission.  

I've been searching the greater Fayetteville area, looking for microclimates.  Laurinburg and Lumberton generally stay a few degrees warmer it seems.  Unless you get over a lot closer to the coast.  Fayetteville is kind of in the middle of the "southern coastal plains" in terms of minimum temps.  I think I'm going to be a little more limited on what I can grow there, than here.  The biggest positive though is the heat and humidity, and the overall growth volume that can be put on during the summer, compared to here where things grow more slowly.  

Are you moving to Fayetteville? And can you tell me where you pulled this data from? I know I'm in a microclimate in Raleigh but I can't seem to find any historical weather data for anywhere but the airport. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

@knikfar, I am moving back there this coming summer, pending any hiccups.  

I get data from:

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/IPS/cd/cd.html?_page=0&state=WA&_target1=Next+

 

You can browse annual weather reports through the drop down menus.  I'm sure there are other sites, this is the only one I know. 

[knikfar]

16 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

@knikfar, I am moving back there this coming summer, pending any hiccups.  

I get data from:

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/IPS/cd/cd.html?_page=0&state=WA&_target1=Next+

 

You can browse annual weather reports through the drop down menus.  I'm sure there are other sites, this is the only one I know. 

Well I'll be happy to have another palm enthusiast here in NC! 

[Yeehova]

Just saw this tree about a month or so ago.  It is still doing well

[BeyondTheGarden]

 

[MattInRaleigh]

54 minutes ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

 

Keep us posted on if they germinate.

[BeyondTheGarden]

@MattInRaleigh if not you can always go dig up seedlings.  They're everywhere, but I have not had good luck transplanting them.  They are rooted deeply. 

[knikfar]

19 hours ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

 

I just picked up seeds from the Washy off the sidewalk and most of them germinated. And as you saw, there are TONS of seeds. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

@knikfar I'll probably go back and do just that.  I had my eye on the aerial seeds, but they're probably no better than the ones on the ground.  All the seedlings that were there this year surely came from sitting on the ground all last winter and germinated once temps got warm, so they're probably all equally viable. 

[knikfar]

17 hours ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

@knikfar I'll probably go back and do just that.  I had my eye on the aerial seeds, but they're probably no better than the ones on the ground.  All the seedlings that were there this year surely came from sitting on the ground all last winter and germinated once temps got warm, so they're probably all equally viable. 

There were bugs, not sure what kind, in some of them. I had hundreds of seeds in a plastic bag. After about a month, I opened the bag and about half of the seeds were just shells and the bugs were moving around in there. I separated the shells, removed the bugs I could see and soaked the rest of the seeds in hydrogen peroxide. They all seem fine and the ones I planted have germinated. 

[WSimpson]

3 hours ago, knikfar said:

There were bugs, not sure what kind, in some of them. I had hundreds of seeds in a plastic bag. After about a month, I opened the bag and about half of the seeds were just shells and the bugs were moving around in there. I separated the shells, removed the bugs I could see and soaked the rest of the seeds in hydrogen peroxide. They all seem fine and the ones I planted have germinated. 

Keep us posted on its success . I always like checking in on that Washy  the other palms and Cycads . 

Will

[knikfar]

1 hour ago, Will Simpson said:

Keep us posted on its success . I always like checking in on that Washy  the other palms and Cycads . 

Will

I have one of this palms babies growing in my yard right now. And several more in my greenhouse.

[BeyondTheGarden]

8 hours ago, knikfar said:

There were bugs, not sure what kind, in some of them. I had hundreds of seeds in a plastic bag. After about a month, I opened the bag and about half of the seeds were just shells and the bugs were moving around in there. I separated the shells, removed the bugs I could see and soaked the rest of the seeds in hydrogen peroxide. They all seem fine and the ones I planted have germinated. 

When did you harvest?  I hadn't intended to wait so long but I just hadn't been over to that side of town in a couple months. 

edit;  I was also thinking about scattering those seeds in my garden.  Pests seem to generally be taken care of by natural processes if you're not growing in ziploc bags or indoors in general.  And there are enough seeds that I can't feasibly grow them all in baggies anyway. 

[Leelanau Palms]

13 hours ago, knikfar said:

I have one of this palms babies growing in my yard right now. And several more in my greenhouse.

Can you please share pics?

[knikfar]

4 hours ago, Leelanau Palms said:

Can you please share pics?

The first pic is the one I have planted in the ground. I planted it last March when it was about the size of the washies in the second pic. We had a low of 21.5 just before Thanksgiving. Its showing bronzing from that event. The second pic is the 7 additional washy babies I have in my greenhouse. All of these were grown from seeds collected from the Fayetteville NC Washy. 

[knikfar]

14 hours ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

When did you harvest?  I hadn't intended to wait so long but I just hadn't been over to that side of town in a couple months. 

edit;  I was also thinking about scattering those seeds in my garden.  Pests seem to generally be taken care of by natural processes if you're not growing in ziploc bags or indoors in general.  And there are enough seeds that I can't feasibly grow them all in baggies anyway. 

I've collected seeds from that palm a few times over the last two years or so. I only plant an amount I know I can manage. So I've been growing no more than 10 or so at a time. I keep the rest of the seeds stored in a breathable bag in a dry space. 

[Leelanau Palms]

3 hours ago, knikfar said:

The first pic is the one I have planted in the ground. I planted it last March when it was about the size of the washies in the second pic. We had a low of 21.5 just before Thanksgiving. Its showing bronzing from that event. The second pic is the 7 additional washy babies I have in my greenhouse. All of these were grown from seeds collected from the Fayetteville NC Washy. 

Thanks for sharing these pictures. Very exciting. Happy to assist in the growing effort if you have too many seeds.

[MattInRaleigh]

4 hours ago, knikfar said:

The first pic is the one I have planted in the ground. I planted it last March when it was about the size of the washies in the second pic. We had a low of 21.5 just before Thanksgiving. Its showing bronzing from that event. The second pic is the 7 additional washy babies I have in my greenhouse. All of these were grown from seeds collected from the Fayetteville NC Washy. 

Thanks for sharing! What’s your greenhouse setup? Do you need heat in it during the winter?

[knikfar]

17 hours ago, MattInRaleigh said:

Thanks for sharing! What’s your greenhouse setup? Do you need heat in it during the winter?

You're welcome. Yes, I do heat my greenhouse during the winter. I have a drop cord running to it with a greenhouse space heater connected. The space heater has a thermostat that's set to come on anytime the temperature drops below 40f. It doesn't keep the greenhouse "warm" but it does keep the temp from falling below 32f for extended periods of time. The heat is mostly for night time. If its sunny outside, it doesn't really matter what the temp is outside. The sun will heat the greenhouse up above freezing so the space heater turns off. As I'm writing this message, its 8:00 am and the outside temp is 27.6f. The temp inside the greenhouse is 36.1f. 

[Leelanau Palms]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:18 PM, BeyondTheGarden said:

When did you harvest?  I hadn't intended to wait so long but I just hadn't been over to that side of town in a couple months. 

edit;  I was also thinking about scattering those seeds in my garden.  Pests seem to generally be taken care of by natural processes if you're not growing in ziploc bags or indoors in general.  And there are enough seeds that I can't feasibly grow them all in baggies anyway. 

 

Thanks for sharing some of your seeds with me, Jesse:

 

 

I tucked half of them in sphagnum and half in potting soil yesterday (12/28/23): 

Updates to follow down the road.

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

7 hours ago, Leelanau Palms said:

Thanks for sharing some of your seeds with me, Jesse:

These'll germinate quickly.

[WSimpson]

What is the lowest temperature those Washys have seen , and I assume there's been no protection ? Since it made it through 2018 , that  2 of my Palmettos couldn't manage to survive , it must be a winner . I think I saw that it got to 9F in 2018 there in Fayetteville ? I might check the Weather Underground for that cold snap in 2018 .

I'm seeing the worst of that 2018 period in Fayetteville was on the 6th with a High of 30F and a Low of 15F and on the 7th with a High of 31F and a Low of 9F . Two days below 32F and those Washys survived ? That's pretty cool !

Anything else you can add about how much cold those palms can handle ?

Thanks ,

Will

Edited January 5 by Will Simpson

[Las Palmas Norte]

32 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

...I'm seeing the worst of that 2018 period in Fayetteville was on the 6th with a High of 30F and a Low of 15F and on the 7th with a High of 31F and a Low of 9F . Two days below 32F and those Washys survived ? That's pretty cool ! ...

Rebound temperatures to a safe zone that Washingtonia can survive (30°F) each of those 2 days. That's what saved it. I think a week of repeated cycling through that would have been enough to kill it, perhaps even a couple of more nights like that.

[ZPalms]

Cripsy edges seems to be the normal for the bragg blvd washie, by june-july it looks like a normal washie

Edited January 5 by ZPalms

[BeyondTheGarden]

8 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

What is the lowest temperature those Washys have seen , and I assume there's been no protection ? Since it made it through 2018 , that  2 of my Palmettos couldn't manage to survive , it must be a winner . I think I saw that it got to 9F in 2018 there in Fayetteville ? I might check the Weather Underground for that cold snap in 2018 .

I'm seeing the worst of that 2018 period in Fayetteville was on the 6th with a High of 30F and a Low of 15F and on the 7th with a High of 31F and a Low of 9F . Two days below 32F and those Washys survived ? That's pretty cool !

Anything else you can add about how much cold those palms can handle ?

Thanks ,

Will

Feb 2018 according to Google Earth, fronds look totally brown.   Lowest temp appears to be 9F, taken at the Fayetteville Public Works Commission

 

 

I assume this thing being well established prior to the building being removed made all the difference.  Plus the fact that as stated Washies rebound quickly.  Also the diameter of the trunk helps; I wonder how long it would take to freeze the growth point at 9F.  NC seems to typically make quick trips to the ultimate lows followed by quick rebounds to above-freezing temps.