Plumeria from seed

[aztropic]

Curious if anyone has ever taken the time to grow plumeria from seed? Seems like it would be a lot more effort than simply rooting a cutting... Every so often,my trees produce seed pods,but I have never tried to grow the seeds.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[Silas_Sancona]

Just now, aztropic said:

Curious if anyone has ever taken the time to grow plumeria from seed? Seems like it would be a lot more effort than simply rooting a cutting... Every so often,my trees produce seed pods,but I have never tried to grow the seeds.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Yes.. and it is very easy..  That pod is far from ready though.. ( or the picture is making it look immature )  Should be bigger, and brown/ jusstt starting to split down the middle when ready. For highest germ. %' ages, seed should be planted within 6 months to a year after harvest.

When ripe, treat how you would pods from things like Oleander / Milkweed ( minus the " fluff )  Plumeria seed will have a similar teardrop- like shape when ready.  Place individual seed in pots ( Cactus mix ) with the pointed end down, rounded end up ( think upside down teardrop ).  With our heat, should start popping within two to 3 weeks in bright shade. 

Grow pretty fast as well once they get the first set of leaves. Seed i started one summer were ready for 1-3 gal by the following spring.

First year seedlings shouldn't be allowed to drop their leaves in winter, and kept warm. 

Beyond that first winter, treat like any other Plumeria.  Can take an average of 4-8 years to flower .., but sometimes will flower as soon as the 3rd year.  While the flower may look similar, each plant grown from seed will be different from the parent plant / variety.  Pink and Red - flowering cultivars can produce a good # of Rainbow flowered seedlings. Seedlings from white and yellow flowering cultivars .. will produce flowers that generally stay somewhere in that range of the parent(s), though yellows can produce seedlings whose flowers are orange-ish, or show obvious pink  " blush " coloration / overtones.

For evaluating for a new cultivar, it usually takes 3-5 full flowering cycles to evaluate for qualities that are stable. ( Some Plumeria can flower ..say white their first year.., then end up w/ pinkish flowers after that first cycle. )
 

[gurugu]

13 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yes.. and it is very easy..  That pod is far from ready though.. ( or the picture is making it look immature )  Should be bigger, and brown/ jusstt starting to split down the middle when ready. For highest germ. %' ages, seed should be planted within 6 months to a year after harvest.

When ripe, treat how you would pods from things like Oleander / Milkweed ( minus the " fluff )  Plumeria seed will have a similar teardrop- like shape when ready.  Place individual seed in pots ( Cactus mix ) with the pointed end down, rounded end up ( think upside down teardrop ).  With our heat, should start popping within two to 3 weeks in bright shade

That´s very true. I was sent some from the Canary Islands some 20 years ago, and they sprouted very easily. I didn´t know about the position of the seed. I just dropped them in the pot.

I´ve found out that they are much hardier than those from cuttings. I´ve had two growing outdoors for many years in a very dry place in winter, but they have never bloomed, (lack of heat, I suppose)

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, gurugu said:

That´s very true. I was sent some from the Canary Islands some 20 years ago, and they sprouted very easily. I didn´t know about the position of the seed. I just dropped them in the pot.

I´ve found out that they are much hardier than those from cuttings. I´ve had two growing outdoors for many years in a very dry place in winter, but they have never bloomed, (lack of heat, I suppose)

Age of the plant(s) and Sun are factors for sure but less than adequate amounts of K ( they want a lot of it, like Hibiscus ) ..and too much Phosphorus ( too much is very bad ) will also influence flowering as well.

Seedlings i'd started off a plant i'd picked up on my first trip to Florida ( was living in wayy colder Ohio at that time ) took 6 years to flower from seed, partially because i moved around so much during that time and couldn't repot as often as i'd have liked to to hopefully speed up that time frame.  Pod on that plant took approx 9 months to mature ( over wintered inside that year )  Unfortunately, after having to leave the plants themselves in FL. ( had rooted into the ground. I then lost many cuttings i'd taken from them after moving here ) i only have one of those seedlings left. Hoping i'll be able to take new cuttings from it in the next couple years.

Plants from seed are definitely tougher than either cutting crown ( ..second best option ) and/ or those that are grafted ( Better than nothing, esp. for tough to root varieties < usually true- red flowered cultivars, IE: " Scott Pratt "/ " Hilo Beauty", etc > )..

[gurugu]

38 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Age of the plant(s) and Sun are factors for sure but less than adequate amounts of K ( they want a lot of it, like Hibiscus ) ..and too much Phosphorus ( too much is very bad ) will also influence flowering as well.

I had read that somewhere, but what puzzles me is that in the Canary Islands, they don´t fertilize them in many places, and they bloom like mad. Tha same happens with my hibiscus. I barely fertilize them, and in sunny summers, they set a lot of flowers.

Anyway, I ´ll follow your advice this next spring and summer.

Thanks.

Another odd thing is that, whenever I picked a new cutting, it flowered the first year, but not the following ones, until it reached a certain height and spent some years inside, then it started flowering. ?¿

[Silas_Sancona]

13 minutes ago, gurugu said:

I had read that somewhere, but what puzzles me is that in the Canary Islands, they don´t fertilize them in many places, and they bloom like mad. Tha same happens with my hibiscus. I barely fertilize them, and in sunny summers, they set a lot of flowers.

Anyway, I ´ll follow your advice this next spring and summer.

Thanks.

Another odd thing is that, whenever I picked a new cutting, it flowered the first year, but not the following ones, until it reached a certain height and spent some years inside, then it started flowering. ?¿

Thinking in places like the Canary Is. soil derived from volcanic rock provides extra K ( among other good stuff, + optimal soil drainage )  They ( and Hibiscus ) will flower w/ lower K < and higher Phosphorus > but high PH will eventually strangle them both

..Think of providing them a high PH diet like eating essentially nothing but super greasy fried food for years on end. Eventually, the effects of such a diet start to take it's toll.  W/ Plumeria, high PH will manifest in less and less flowers, lower, overall vigor, and eventual failure of the plant itself.  They need some no doubt, but all those high Phosphorus / " Super Bloom " fert. are just a gimmick. Most places have plenty of it in the soil naturally.  Plus, lots of PH in your soil will sterilize it/ kill off all the microbes. If i think they need it, i'd usually hit all mine in containers with their yearly Phos. feeding right about now, just as they start waking up ( i force all mine into dormancy ) ...Then do a K feeding in April, July, and late September..

In a sense, Plumeria are like Cacti in how they store energy and will form next year's flowers the year before inside the branch tips. Cuttings will often have just enough " battery power " to successfully throw an inflo. after being cut.  After doing so, and being rooted,  it will often take a couple years for them to readjust and start flowering normally again. That's why good Plumeria growers will stress, " Give your plants time to start flowering again after that first year. "

[gurugu]

44 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

In a sense, Plumeria are like Cacti in how they store energy and will form next year's flowers the year before inside the branch tips. Cuttings will often have just enough " battery power " to successfully throw an inflo. after being cut.  After doing so, and being rooted,  it will often take a couple years for them to readjust and start flowering normally again

Now it does make sense.

44 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

but high PH will eventually strangle them both

 

45 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Plus, lots of PH in your soil will sterilize it/ kill off all the microbes.

Here it rains a lot and all year round. And rainfall is rather acidic. So, maybe, it´s better to amend the soil you plant plumerias in, with less acidic soil.

 

47 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

feeding right about now, just as they start waking up ( i force all mine into dormancy ) ...Then do a K feeding in April, July, and late September..

Good advice. Thanks.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, gurugu said:

Here it rains a lot and all year round. And rainfall is rather acidic. So, maybe, it´s better to amend the soil you plant plumerias in, with less acidic soil.

Interesting thought.. I know in Habitat, at least just to my south in Sonora, ..and other places in Mexico / the Caribbean,  they grow in hot, extremely rocky locations where the soil leans alkaline. Is also dry November/ December - roughly late May or June in both areas as well. On the other hand,  they also grow perfectly in pretty rainy places like Hawaii, Central America, etc where the soil is often slightly richer.. 

One thing is certain, cold / wet feet in winter can be fatal.  Rarely gets cold enough where i grew up in Central California to kill them, but combine cool days / nights w/ wet feet and the only way they grew well, long term, was if you planted them in a raised planter that is mainly course, large grained sand, and gravel.. no organics / clay.

[Silas_Sancona]

For @aztropic  and anyone else who might want to try their hand at Plumeria seed,  Was looking for something else and found progression shots i'd taken of my own work w/ these plants from seed from some time ago..

For reference, Plumeria cultivar the seed pod came from was " San Pedro Du Lac " ..a variety found on a volcano in Central America by the owners of a Plumeria nursery in S. FL.. Plant itself was picked up during my second road trip that year / first adventure to Florida.. Picked the particular specimen partly because it had a seed pod developing attached to it.

Because i was in Ohio at the time, that winter, the plant was sheltered indoors and wrapped in 2 layers of Towels when an ice storm cut the power for a couple days in Feb., just as the seed pod was nearing maturity.

Not long after that storm passed, the seed pod was ready for harvesting.. Following pictures depict progress of that batch.  Thought i had pictures beyond that first year ( as the seedlings developed more ) but guess not, or they're in a box somewhere.

Anyway:

Seed set : 3/ 13 / 07



05/ 25, 1st picture: and 05/ 30 / 07, 2nd picture:  Seedling progression  ( Post - germination ) :






Some of the seedlings as of 07/ 11 / 07, right after stepping them from the peat pots.



After returning to California shortly after the last picture, seedlings were kept under a light and misted thru that first winter ( '07- '08 ) to keep them from going dormant. Beyond that, were treated like any other Plumeria and allowed to go dormant the following winter.  Had reached a height  between 14-18" by that following winter ( '08- '09 ) and experienced exposure to a couple nights that dropped to 33- 32F that January. A couple suffered some tip damage, but were otherwise fine after i trimmed off the damaged tip and applied Sulfur to the cut.

[metalfan]

We pick up seeds off the ground when we go to the beach (and I have had my own plants set seeds as well). They grow, literally, like weeds. If you just let the seed pods open and the seeds fall on the ground, they will germinate and seedlings pop up. The thing is you never know what color you will get. I raised a seedling rom Hilo Beauty (which is a deep dark red) to maturity and when it bloomed it was a very pale pink

[Silas_Sancona]

All this talk and digging up memories of starting Plumeria from seed got me thinking.. Time to start down that road again..

We'll see what happens.




Grown " Daisy Wilcox ", the first pack, ..was one of the " original 3 " Plumeria i picked up from my first trip to FL.   2nd pack is seed from a hybrid named by Brad's.  3rd is a named seedling from a named cultivar in the classic Moragne series, and is said to be a prolific seeder.. 

Most excited about the last pack of seeds since they originate from crosses done by Thailand Plumeria guru Dr. Kukiat Tanteeratarm. His work not too long ago brought the world the first purple flowered Plumeria hybrid, followed by several other stunning, purple - flowered crosses in recent years.. One day, we'll get to blue flowered cultivars..


While several years old, his overall Plumeria collection albums / other plant collections on his Flicker page are well worth checking out.

[metalfan]

I was always under the impression that the seeds will not breed true to the color of the parent

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, metalfan said:

I was always under the impression that the seeds will not breed true to the color of the parent

That is correct..

As you'd mentioned when referencing Hilo Beauty, i can start seed from say Daisy Wilcox, or Aida, but when the seedlings flower, color may be different, very different..  Instead of cream w/ some yellow and rose pink banding on the petals, Daisy Wilcox seedlings may lean more yellow or pink, maybe red, with less ( or no ) white / cream present.. or the flowers could be larger / smaller ..or formed differently than Daisy Wilcox itself.. and no two seedlings from a Daisy Wilcox pod will look alike. 

If the flowers ..or seedling plant itself  have qualities that are uniquely different enough from the pod parent, that's when you'd pursue naming / having them evaluated for official registration.  What's interesting is some seedlings may produce flowers that are one color when they first flower ..say White, ..and end up producing solid Pink flowers by the 3rd year ( ..and beyond that 3rd year )

The remaining seedling i have from " San Pedro Du Lac " has produced flowers that are very similar in color to that variety, but are formed a little differently / size isn't quite the same.  Don't think it is different enough from San Pedro Du Lac to name it, but is still a special plant.

 

[spike]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

That is correct..

As you'd mentioned when referencing Hilo Beauty, i can start seed from say Daisy Wilcox, or Aida, but when the seedlings flower, color may be different, very different..  Instead of cream w/ some yellow and rose pink banding on the petals, Daisy Wilcox seedlings may lean more yellow or pink, maybe red, with less ( or no ) white / cream present.. or the flowers could be larger / smaller ..or formed differently than Daisy Wilcox itself.. and no two seedlings from a Daisy Wilcox pod will look alike. 

If the flowers ..or seedling plant itself  have qualities that are uniquely different enough from the pod parent, that's when you'd pursue naming / having them evaluated for official registration.  What's interesting is some seedlings may produce flowers that are one color when they first flower ..say White, ..and end up producing solid Pink flowers by the 3rd year ( ..and beyond that 3rd year )

The remaining seedling i have from " San Pedro Du Lac " has produced flowers that are very similar in color to that variety, but are formed a little differently / size isn't quite the same.  Don't think it is different enough from San Pedro Du Lac to name it, but is still a special plant.

 

Any photos of that one? If possible of course

[Silas_Sancona]

3 minutes ago, spike said:

Any photos of that one? If possible of course

Unfortunately, i don't have pictures of the original cultivar my seedling plant came from, but do have pictures ( a couple accessible on my hard drive, others in another Plumeria thread here ) from when one of the seedlings first flowered in FL.  Pictures of " San Pedro Du Lac " can be found on Florida Colors Website.. where i'd picked up that variety,  Daisy Wilcox, and another i'd had named Charlotte Ebert ..a classic, large flowered, pink cultivar..

Here's one picture of the one of seedling plants after the inflo fully filled out.. Was the first of those seedlings to flower.  As mentioned above, have pictures documenting how it developed as it started flowering somewhere on the forum.  May be hard to see in the picture, but as the flowers opened on it, they were yellow, then aged to white w/ the yellow throat.. Quite attractive.. I'd had several of the seedlings, but had to leave the maturing plants in FL. after they rooted in the ground. Took cuttings of all of them when i left FL., but ended up loosing most of them after the 2nd summer here ..for whatever reason. Planted a couple of the plants in a green space behind where i lived in Bradenton.. For all i know, they might still be there..

Here's a couple other pictures of that same seedling planted here, when it flowered a couple years ago.. I'm hoping it will try again this year..

[Silas_Sancona]

Seedling update..  Took a little longer than anticipated, but germination is coming along pretty well..  Ordering more seeds soon from a couple different sources.





For anyone just getting into Plumeria, esp. here in AZ or around California, ..outside S. Cal.  stumbled onto this great PDF file put together by a long time grower/ member of the So. Cal Plumeria Society who spent some time collecting notes on hundreds of cultivars from around the world. While not perfect, the information contained is extremely useful. Information is relevant up to 2020 in regards to cultivars detailed.. Numerous others that have been released by various breeders last year and this year will be added to this file later i'm sure.

Link:  https://atkinsonplumeria.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Plumeria-compilation-2020-v3.pdf

Have spent at least late 3 nights pulling relevant info regarding a list of cultivars i want to trial, based on important things like cold tolerance, heat sensitivity, ..how they grow ( Tall grower, vs Medium grower ..compact, dwarf, etc.. ) Ease of rooting cuttings ..etc, etc..

Lots of good stuff, even if you'll be a Little glassy eyed from looking over all the information ( And there is A LOT, lol ). Anyway..  More than likely, anyone looking at the PDF will have to magnify the pages a bit since it is a little compressed.

Collectors/ Growers themselves have one of the larger Plumeria Groves in California ..In LA Mesa specifically.. Don't sell online as far as i know, but do hold sale events a couple times a year, as well as selling cuttings/ plants at many SCPS events/ meetings.

[Silas_Sancona]

More seeds getting planted tomorrow,  now that some acquired cuttings are set and ready to root ( hopefully, lol )



Cutting cultivars include:

Courtade Pink

White Samoan Fluff

Slaughter's Pink

Guillot's Sunset ( Named after a very well known and respected California Plumeria Guru, Bud Guillot )

All four are supposed to set seed and be easy to root. Important for having a steady source of seed to play with later/ plants that will set seed when crossed. 

First three are also supposed to be more cold / heat tolerant than other varieties ( Supposedly, both Samoan Fluff and Slaughter's Pink are planted extensively at the San Diego Zoo ). 

We'll see how sensitive / not sensitive to cold Guillot's Sunset is. Apparently, Bud obtained, and had been growing this ..and some other varieties he introduced,  since the 60s,  if not earlier.

 

[aztropic]

Seed pod opened up August 23. Collected the seeds and planted them just 10 days ago and they are already popping in our 110F heat! These were from a yellow flowered tree.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[aztropic]

Also have 2 more pods ripening from a dark pink flowered tree.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Barry]

The plumeria seeds spout quickly. I planted this bunch on 05.01.22 and they are moving along quite well in my opinion. In the 3rd pic, looks like it wants to branch out already. Once they were rooted in individual pots, I applied Florikan fertilizer and noticed quickly how green and bigger leaves got.

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, Barry said:

The plumeria seeds spout quickly. I planted this bunch on 05.01.22 and they are moving along quite well in my opinion. In the 3rd pic, looks like it wants to branch out already. Once they were rooted in individual pots, I applied Florikan fertilizer and noticed quickly how green and bigger leaves got.

Those look great..  Mine are moving, though at a " Life in the Arizona Oven " pace.  Should see a nice growth spurt between now and late November that the worst of this summer's heat is starting to pull back.  ...The " above 109F " every day flavor of heat anyway.

[aztropic]

On 9/4/2022 at 9:57 AM, aztropic said:

Seed pod opened up August 23. Collected the seeds and planted them just 10 days ago and they are already popping in our 110F heat! These were from a yellow flowered tree.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

VERY fast growers! Here are the seedlings,already throwing true leaves just 1 week from sprouting.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona