Pictures of Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’

[JDH23]

Hello all,

Ive recently fell down the rabbit hole of exploring/learning about Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’. From what I’ve looked into, there are allegedly 4 original palms that were planted at the history museum in the city of Plovdiv. Out of curiosity I tried to see what the palms look like, however, for the life of me I cannot find a picture of any of the palms at the museum. I’ve seen pictures/videos of presumably Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’ palms planted in areas of Bulgaria, but I have not seen a picture of the original 4 plants at the museum. Additionally, I’ve seen people claim to have seen these 4 plants both in person and in photos, so this suggests to me there are photos out there of them. So, does anyone by chance know of/own photos of the original Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’ palms in Plovdiv?

[Chester B]

30 minutes ago, JDH23 said:

Hello all,

Ive recently fell down the rabbit hole of exploring/learning about Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’. From what I’ve looked into, there are allegedly 4 original palms that were planted at the history museum in the city of Plovdiv. Out of curiosity I tried to see what the palms look like, however, for the life of me I cannot find a picture of any of the palms at the museum. I’ve seen pictures/videos of presumably Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’ palms planted in areas of Bulgaria, but I have not seen a picture of the original 4 plants at the museum. Additionally, I’ve seen people claim to have seen these 4 plants both in person and in photos, so this suggests to me there are photos out there of them. So, does anyone by chance know of/own photos of the original Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’ palms in Plovdiv?

From what I know all these palms are dead.  They were planted up against a south facing wall in a favorable microclimate but they had a few bad winters and died, so they weren't long term plants in that climate.  The pictures that I saw were less than spectacular, they were just hanging on.  To be honest I don't believe the hype that these are any more cold hardy than a standard fortunei.  They may have a little waggie in them which causes their fronds to be a stiffer.  I know there are photos somewhere on this forum.

Looks like they have been replaced with Washys that they now protect.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Chester B

[WSimpson]

I found this picture that looks similar to what I think I saw on an article about the original  Trachy Bulgarias . 

 

[Allen]

While the Trachycarpus may have been at that building for many years as Bulgaria is relatively mild...There are many places in the world including Bulgaria where hotels, water parks, zoos, restaurants, etc want a exotic beach look to appeal to guests and will in some cases install palms on a yearly basis or if they die just replace them.  This can be confusing.  I found a place in Bulgaria that does that.  Some places here in the states 'rent' palm trees for the season or offer yearly winterizing services.

Please also be advised that some websites on the internet post Bulgaria being hardy to -17F when they got that confused with -17C.  Also keep in mind the Trachycarpus fortunei 'Bulgaria' is just named from where the palms/seeds were supposedly collected of a palm with specific characteristics ie. a 'cultivar'.  'Bulgaria' is still a Trachycarpus fortunei

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Allen

[Jimhardy]

https://www.polarpalm.net/en/index.html

[teddytn]

56 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

https://www.polarpalm.net/en/index.html

-17.5….

[Allen]

3 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

https://www.polarpalm.net/en/index.html

polarpalm happens to be owned by the same nursery that exports the Bulgarian palms to Europe https://palmi.bg/ 

They claim minimum temps of -18C (-0.4F) and USDA zone 7a on their Trachycarpus fortunei 

and -21C (-5.8F) USDA zone 6b on their Trachycarpus fortunei 'Bulgaria'

- read https://palmi.bg/product/802/legendarnite-palmi-trahikarpus-balgaria.html (Use google browser and translate).  It states "Successful wintering depends on many factors - humidity, temperature, fertilization and more. The combination of these factors sometimes leads to negative consequences. In some years the plants may remain intact after -15C degrees, and in other years they may die at -12C degrees. That is why winter protection of young plants is recommended. Older palms are much more cold-resistant and problems with them are very unlikely."

So it seems they are talking temps similar to what we know on fortunei except they claim 'Bulgaria' is 5F more hardy. 

But the temps they state in their explanation seem like fortunei - (Above 10F is ok and 5F-10F and lower is dangerous) 

 

9 hours ago, JDH23 said:

 So, does anyone by chance know of/own photos of the original Trachycarpus ‘Bulgaria’ palms in Plovdiv?

https://www.polarpalm.net/en/start.html They say the original 4 palms left are at the police station at Sunny beach resort which google says is this.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x40a69e4c89bd0bbd%3A0xeded096bee723093!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMrYIUdsbCFyrZj2AEgVGrfSUa2Gh7_nfA79EJY%3Dw260-h175-n-k-no!5spolice office at the Sunny beach resort - Google Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipNoN7gzULs6K7r0M5xf_RwLzUtwGy3lYklxT78x&hl=en

Edited April 1, 2022 by Allen

[mnorell]

I spent a month in Plovdiv in 1999, producing some symphonic recordings (there are many excellent musicians there)...and the video walk down the mall above brings back so many memories for me. It is a city well worth visiting, one of the hidden gems of Europe. It was the ancient city in Thracia of Philippopolis (Spartacus was born just down the road a piece), then the Roman city of Trimontium, and finally...Plovdiv, in the relatively modern country of Bulgaria. It is full of ancient Greek relics, ancient Roman relics, and due to the close ties with Austria (the King of Bulgaria was part of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha clan), the architecture you see in the video above (the main mall, built around the turn of the 20th century) is more Viennese than anything...though built on top of the ancient circus, a portion of which is exposed, as you can see in the video. There are also several beautiful European-style parks, a hilly "altstadt" of incredible homes in a colloquial architectural style with intricate wood-carved interiors, and due to its proximity to Turkey (Istanbul is about 150 miles away down the main highway), full of mosques and minarets. It is quite cosmopolitan because of its location, and many Greek (and other foreign) students come there to study at the University. I do remember seeing a garden there with Trachycarpus and Oleander and being very surprised at that. But those Washingtonia at the mall are quite the shock to me!

[teddytn]

8 hours ago, Allen said:

polarpalm happens to be owned by the same nursery that exports the Bulgarian palms to Europe https://palmi.bg/ 

They claim minimum temps of -18C (-0.4F) and USDA zone 7a on their Trachycarpus fortunei 

and -21C (-5.8F) USDA zone 6b on their Trachycarpus fortunei 'Bulgaria'

- read https://palmi.bg/product/802/legendarnite-palmi-trahikarpus-balgaria.html (Use google browser and translate).  It states "Successful wintering depends on many factors - humidity, temperature, fertilization and more. The combination of these factors sometimes leads to negative consequences. In some years the plants may remain intact after -15C degrees, and in other years they may die at -12C degrees. That is why winter protection of young plants is recommended. Older palms are much more cold-resistant and problems with them are very unlikely."

So it seems they are talking temps similar to what we know on fortunei except they claim 'Bulgaria' is 5F more hardy. 

But the temps they state in their explanation seem like fortunei - (Above 10F is ok and 5F-10F and lower is dangerous) 

 

https://www.polarpalm.net/en/start.html They say the original 4 palms left are at the police station at Sunny beach resort which google says is this.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x40a69e4c89bd0bbd%3A0xeded096bee723093!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMrYIUdsbCFyrZj2AEgVGrfSUa2Gh7_nfA79EJY%3Dw260-h175-n-k-no!5spolice office at the Sunny beach resort - Google Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipNoN7gzULs6K7r0M5xf_RwLzUtwGy3lYklxT78x&hl=en

Makes more sense. Not that there’s not exceptions to the rule out there, but surviving -17.5f seems like a stretch to me. 

[Chester B]

The Trachycarpus fortunei in Vancouver took -15C and close to a week below freezing this year and still look good. Fronds are all still green and they’re flowering. The Chamaerops and other exotics took a beating though. Just further proof to me that there is no differentiator between the Bulgarian and regular fortunei when it comes to cold hardiness. All hype. 
 

I think they should start collecting seeds off the Vancouver Trachys and start marketing them as Trachycarpus “Canadian”!!

[Allen]

Polarpalm (Palm center) street view https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0630643,24.8190515,3a,75y,35.15h,78.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKzziO6KW_lvjrJq1AEP3sA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

38 minutes ago, Chester B said:

The Trachycarpus fortunei in Vancouver took -15C and close to a week below freezing this year and still look good. Fronds are all still green and they’re flowering. The Chamaerops and other exotics took a beating though. Just further proof to me that there is no differentiator between the Bulgarian and regular fortunei when it comes to cold hardiness. All hype. 
 

I think they should start collecting seeds off the Vancouver Trachys and start marketing them as Trachycarpus “Canadian”!!

They lost me when they said fortunei is a 7a palm.  Honestly I think it's a nursery pushing the boundaries of stated hardiness as they have a European clientele BUT they are honest and go into the stuff about it can die at -12C, -15C, depending on conditions, etc.  It just seems if it can die at those temps then stating -21C is really pushing it.  Steve on here has said his small 'Bulgaria' haven't spear pulled when his others have is the only 1st hand experience in the US I have heard that sounds promising.  Otherwise I have never seen any viable evidence of cold hardiness difference.

 

PDN claims -17F on their webpage https://www.plantdelights.com/products/trachycarpus-fortunei-bulgaria.  does anyone see this on polarpalm.net?

Edited April 1, 2022 by Allen

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

I think they should start collecting seeds off the Vancouver Trachys and start marketing them as Trachycarpus “Canadian”!!

What would the seeds from other areas up here be named? They are all Trachycarpus fortunei grown within the limits of the growing range.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

 

They lost me when they said fortunei is a 7a palm.  Honestly I think it's a nursery pushing the boundaries of stated hardiness 

PDN claims -17F on their webpage https://www.plantdelights.com/products/trachycarpus-fortunei-bulgaria.  does anyone see this on polarpalm.net?

A good salesman shouldn’t let facts get in the way of making a sale right? Lol… 

I’ve lived where there’s negative temps in the winter, not many evergreen plants there other than conifers. Let’s say for arguments sake they did survive negative temps, they still would have defoliated and lost their spears for sure, then it’s a gamble if they would survive year to year unprotected. No way -17f is a quick dip and back up, that’s severe freeze with a deep ground freeze too. Seems like another marketing scheme to me. 

[Chester B]

34 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

What would the seeds from other areas up here be named? They are all Trachycarpus fortunei grown within the limits of the growing range.

I was being a little facetious. 

[Allen]

I found this article by the owner which is pretty entertaining.  There are some wild claims in there.  Look for "Russian Science".  But lots of things don't add up like the palm grew 1m last year and it has been there for 50 years but the tallest now is 7 meters tall.  Also stuff like many plants died one year because he heard NATO dropped bombs 500 km away with uranium.  And don't forget it could be some Russian super science project.... well anyway here is the read.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/32374802/download-the-european-palm-society

[Allen]

22 hours ago, Allen said:

 

Please also be advised that some websites on the internet post Bulgaria being hardy to -17F when they got that confused with -17C.  

I did a little more research on this and I am wrong about this.  polarpalms.net using waybackmachine said in 2001 that "It is sure that in 1980 they experienced -23,6°C(-10,5°F) and in 1993 the minimum was -27,5°C(-17,5°F)"

but now that info seems to have been removed from the website?  Anyway this seems to be where the -17F is coming from instead of the mixup I said between °C and °F.

 

[Fallen Munk]

I have a data point to add regarding "Bulgaria".  I started seedlings of regular fortunei and "Bulgaria" at the same time.  The Bulgaria have twice the growth rate and look much more robust.  They are the size of two year old regular fortunei at one year of growth.  I can't speak to the cold hardiness. 

[Jimhardy]

Heres a picture of mine from the old house....

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Jimhardy

[Las Palmas Norte]

23 hours ago, Chester B said:

I was being a little facetious. 

Gottcha. 

[Allen]

20 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

I have a data point to add regarding "Bulgaria".  I started seedlings of regular fortunei and "Bulgaria" at the same time.  The Bulgaria have twice the growth rate and look much more robust.  They are the size of two year old regular fortunei at one year of growth.  I can't speak to the cold hardiness. 

I ran this by BananaJSSI on his Youtube livestream yesterday (It's on the first few minutes, check the live comments @3:30) and he said his 'Bulgaria' seedlings grow the same rate as all his other fortunei.  And he has a lot of experience with seedlings.  Not trying to argue about it just trying to get more info on 'Bulgaria'

Edited April 2, 2022 by Allen

[WSimpson]

From Plant Delights website below  , picture from Gary Hollar's website :

Trachycarpus fortunei Taylor Form (Taylor's Windmill Palm)

Originally, two windmill palms with distinctive leaf shapes were purchased from Florida and planted at Taylor's Nursery in Raleigh nearly a half-century ago. One tree survived and endured our record -9 degrees F temperature in the '80s. Fruiting offspring from this tree are planted around Raleigh, including the local Jaycee Park palm garden. (Hardiness Zone 7b-10)

Edit: That documented -9 is pretty stout !

Edited April 2, 2022 by Will Simpson

[Allen]

35 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

Originally, two windmill palms with distinctive leaf shapes were purchased from Florida and planted at Taylor's Nursery in Raleigh nearly a half-century ago. One tree survived and endured our record -9 degrees F temperature in the '80s. Fruiting offspring from this tree are planted around Raleigh, including the local Jaycee Park palm garden. (Hardiness Zone 7b-10)

Edit: That documented -9 is pretty stout !

Will,

Don't think I'd ever want to test -9F on one.  When your Taylor forms went thru 4F did you protect them?  And if not did they completely defoliate?

[Fallen Munk]

5 hours ago, Allen said:

I ran this by BananaJSSI on his Youtube livestream yesterday (It's on the first few minutes, check the live comments @3:30) and he said his 'Bulgaria' seedlings grow the same rate as all his other fortunei.  And he has a lot of experience with seedlings.  Not trying to argue about it just trying to get more info on 'Bulgaria'

No worries, I'm just sharing my experience with them, I can't speak to Banana Joe's experience.  Bulgaria on bottom, regular fortunei on top all germinated at the same time.  No cherry picking, I have a sample size of 100 of each to compare and they are all this consistent.  Good luck with your research.

[Allen]

I think I found the palms at the History museum.  Sheltered by a wall and in a walled courtyard, all concrete.  Good microclimate

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Allen