Growing a Canary Island Date Palm in New York City

[UK_Palms]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

Well, looks like proof a colder zone(,Poland-7a) than (7b)NYC can grow them with protection.  Who would have thought?

If dryness is NYC concern with CIDP, an increase of the diurnal temperature would provide the answer. Many way to do this,  both passive or active. 

 

I never said it was impossible with a sophisticated shelter. I am merely stressing the extent that you will have to go to in order to get a CIDP through winter in a wet-cold 7b, especially once it starts gaining size. Look at that big, heated shelter the guy in Poland is putting up each winter (complete with an underground heating radiator system). That is a huge undertaking, both physically and financially! But where there is a will, there is obviously a way, if you are prepared to go to those lengths. For many people such a setup will just not be practical.

And once it becomes too big to protect and too inconvenient (assuming they manage to grow it to that point), it is gong to get taken out by the winters there. A CIDP in Poland or NYC is ultimately going to be on borrowed time either way. You will only have it for as long as you can protect it. And that protection has to be on point. Something nobody in NYC appears to have been able to do, as of yet (hence why there isn't any there). But as I have previously said, I would love to see someone in NYC get a CIDP to a half decent size!

 

4 hours ago, Subtropical LIS said:

You not really making any sense?

If a CIDP were covered - how would in “not get through winter”? How do people in Canada, Russia, Poland…etc.  get palms through winter? How do they get cactus and other dry climate plants through the wet, cloudy winters of the UK? Additionally, I think we covered the fact that in lower latitude climates (40 latitude south), with long hot summers and intense sun angles for several months… rainfall and humidity have less of an impact on CIDP. We KNOW this because CIDP grow by the thousands in the hot and wet subtropical southeastern USA from Houston to Charleston, SC with daily summer tropical downpours(I think we covered this already - LOL)

 

As to the climate of NYC (and again, not trying to be mean, here, I mean that truly) …you seem to lack the basic understanding of world climatology.

NYC is not wet and humid year -round. In fact, very dry continental and modified polar air is frequently present for several months from Dec – March. This air is NOT humid…dew points in the teens occur frequently (dew points in the teens are common in the desert, for example). Winter air in NYC is often very dry (skin cracks). Moreover, like many climates between 30 and 40 latitudes, NYC can have periodic episodes of long rainless periods. I’m not up in NYC now - but from what I’ve read, they have had very little rain since September 1^st (2 inches/5 cm in the last 3 months). Right now portions on NYC down through the mid-Atlantic states are DROUGHT (and they were in 2021 as well):

 

 

 

Another factor to consider (and again I’m not trying to mean here – I know the English are sensitive about their climate, just trying to educate), living at the high latitude you live at (52 north), I don’t think you fully appreciate how fast moisture evaporates in lower latitude climates.: In a high latitude climate like the UK, moisture is slow to evaporate. Not only is sunshine intensity relatively weak - but the modestly cool summer average high temperatures also slow evaporation.

In lower latitude, hot summer climates the situation is the reverse - the sun is so strong and temp as so hot, that moisture is quickly evaporated. Consider that locations on the Atlantic coast from Miami to NYC have heavy summer thundershowers almost daily, when the rain pours down like a monsoon in India (lol), yet with an hour the ground is nearly dry as steam rises from the pavement (and the temp moves toward 29 – 34 C again). A CIDP in NYC would have no problem with too much moisture in NYC in summer, for the same reason they don’t in Orlando, New Orleans, or Charleston, SC.  

Finally, that is up to the OP if he/she is or wants to construct a structure and what type. However, my guess is (at least in NYC), one would not have to heat a shelter with anything more than C9 Christmas lights (about $15 at most local stores - lol). I do this for mangos in Florida and my Robusta in CT, and it works fine. The financial costs involved would be minimal…since any palm shelter in NYC would only be used about 90 days a year. If people in Canada in zone 5 can enjoy Washingtonia and Windmill palms for many years, I don’t know why someone down in zone 7b couldn’t do the same.

For some strange reason...you seem super angry that someone is growing palms in NYC.  Anyone can see that. I suppose that is a result of living at 52 N...less than a 1000 miles from the arctic circle.  I know you are heading into a tough time of year up there (the gloomy climate makes angry people.)...but don't take it out on the OP or the rest of us "mate".

 

I could fire back at you and keep the heated exchange going between us, but it will not be constructive in any way for the OP. Some people will want to see us get in a back and forth, for entertainment, but others will be getting annoyed by it, so I will try to keep things civil now. As I said, the OP doesn't gain anything from us arguing. I certainly don't get anything out of it and I doubt you do either. So I will heed Jonathans advice and chill.

I have certainly not taken anything out on the OP either, which you suggest. I have tried to provide relevant input in my previous comments, as have some members from the PNW. Both the UK and the PNW have areas which are the upper limits for where CIDP can be grown anywhere, so our input is invaluable on what factors take out CIDP's in relation to temperatures and the wet-cold. We know what parts they will grow in exactly, and what parts they won't, even with limited protection. The bottom line is that you will need an exceptional and sophisticated shelter to get small CIDP's to grow on in NYC. Maybe the OP will be able to step up his protection a bit this year with better heating and airflow?

I am also aware that New York has just had the driest November on record, hence the drought issue currently. That means very little however against climatology. We only had 0.2 inches of rainfall here in June, but now everywhere is a soaking wet boggy mess after a very wet September and October. Likewise, the 9 month period from November 2021 to August 2022 was record dry, however the 6 month period from October 2023 - March 2024 was the wettest 6 month period on record here. So it will always flip between wet and dry periods. That doesn't change the fact that NYC averages 50 inches of rain a year however. So it is quite wet there.

As for your comment about me supposedly being angry about someone growing palms in NYC, I can assure you that is not the case. Myself and those in the PNW are probably sceptical about the prospects for something like CIDP, given our experiences, but I think most of us (myself included) would love to see a zone pushed CIDP flourishing in NYC with adequate protection. Do I think that is impossible? No. But I do think it is unlikely. I hope the OP can prove me wrong on this.

Anyway, this is what the Polish guy's protection looked like during the first winter his CIDP was in the ground and I believe he planted it at a bigger size than the OP's. You can see that his drainage is very good there as well with lots of gravel. You may need to construct something akin to this setup for winter... @Nomad NYC

 

Compared to now...

 

He heats it with a radiator that is connected via underground pipes directly from the house and keeps it at about 50F during a proper freeze event when it could be almost 0F outside. So that's 50F of heating on the coldest of nights. He also heats the ground to 70F in spring as well once the shelter has come off, to help with it's growth. His annual precipitation is only 24 inches as well, which is less than half of NYC. Just saying. So a few factors to consider here with this zone pushed CIDP.

[Subtropical LIS]

21 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

I never said it was impossible with a sophisticated shelter. I am merely stressing the extent that you will have to go to in order to get a CIDP through winter in a wet-cold 7b, especially once it starts gaining size. Look at that big, heated shelter the guy in Poland is putting up each winter (complete with an underground heating radiator system). That is a huge undertaking, both physically and financially! But where there is a will, there is obviously a way, if you are prepared to go to those lengths. For many people such a setup will just not be practical.

And once it becomes too big to protect and too inconvenient (assuming they manage to grow it to that point), it is gong to get taken out by the winters there. A CIDP in Poland or NYC is ultimately going to be on borrowed time either way. You will only have it for as long as you can protect it. And that protection has to be on point. Something nobody in NYC appears to have been able to do, as of yet (hence why there isn't any there). But as I have previously said, I would love to see someone in NYC get a CIDP to a half decent size!

 

 

I could fire back at you and keep the heated exchange going between us, but it will not be constructive in any way for the OP. Some people will want to see us get in a back and forth, for entertainment, but others will be getting annoyed by it, so I will try to keep things civil now. As I said, the OP doesn't gain anything from us arguing. I certainly don't get anything out of it and I doubt you do either. So I will heed Jonathans advice and chill.

I have certainly not taken anything out on the OP either, which you suggest. I have tried to provide relevant input in my previous comments, as have some members from the PNW. Both the UK and the PNW have areas which are the upper limits for where CIDP can be grown anywhere, so our input is invaluable on what factors take out CIDP's in relation to temperatures and the wet-cold. We know what parts they will grow in exactly, and what parts they won't, even with limited protection. The bottom line is that you will need an exceptional and sophisticated shelter to get small CIDP's to grow on in NYC. Maybe the OP will be able to step up his protection a bit this year with better heating and airflow?

I am also aware that New York has just had the driest November on record, hence the drought issue currently. That means very little however against climatology. We only had 0.2 inches of rainfall here in June, but now everywhere is a soaking wet boggy mess after a very wet September and October. Likewise, the 9 month period from November 2021 to August 2022 was record dry, however the 6 month period from October 2023 - March 2024 was the wettest 6 month period on record here. So it will always flip between wet and dry periods. That doesn't change the fact that NYC averages 50 inches of rain a year however. So it is quite wet there.

As for your comment about me supposedly being angry about someone growing palms in NYC, I can assure you that is not the case. Myself and those in the PNW are probably sceptical about the prospects for something like CIDP, given our experiences, but I think most of us (myself included) would love to see a zone pushed CIDP flourishing in NYC with adequate protection. Do I think that is impossible? No. But I do think it is unlikely. I hope the OP can prove me wrong on this.

Anyway, this is what the Polish guy's protection looked like during the first winter his CIDP was in the ground and I believe he planted it at a bigger size than the OP's. You can see that his drainage is very good there as well with lots of gravel. You may need to construct something akin to this setup for winter... @Nomad NYC

 

Compared to now...

 

He heats it with a radiator that is connected via underground pipes directly from the house and keeps it at about 50F during a proper freeze event when it could be almost 0F outside. So that's 50F of heating on the coldest of nights. He also heats the ground to 70F in spring as well once the shelter has come off, to help with it's growth. His annual precipitation is only 24 inches as well, which is less than half of NYC. Just saying. So a few factors to consider here with this zone pushed CIDP.

Hey…I don’t think it’s constructive either, my aim was not to argue or annoy you. My background is NOT in biology/botany…etc. However, my academic backround/career IS in climate science – and when you pour over climate date for 30 years, it can be difficult to read things that are just not true (and I don’t blame people, honestly, I blame the media that hypes the weather and climate, esp. in the USA).

Your point about the UK being the upper limits for where CIDP can be grown certainly has merit. I would guess that the UK would be the upper limits of where cultivation is possible, so I’m sure your insights are of value. To be honest, while I think CIDP are very attractive palms, I have not really paid attention to them as much as other palms. Here on the East Coast of the USA from Florida to around southeast North Carolina, they are often used in municipal/commercial plantings and not private landscape situations as much, at least to some degree, that really is my only exposure to them.

As to the precipitation in NYC and the effect on CIDP – there are several important things to keep in mind if you want to have true understanding of the character of its climate (and for that matter, most humid-lower middle latitude/subtropical climates in general). I agree, that you're likly experincing a wet - boggy conditions...but the character of precip and what happens after it falls is a bit different up where you are compared to NYC (and most locations below 40 latitude) :

As a side note - the 49 inches is for Central Park (Manhattan)… where the OP is located is out toward Long Island (Queens), where the average 43 inches annually (JFK station).  There is much conjecture as to why – but it seems logical that the UHI and uniqueness of Manhattan Island plays at least some role.

 1) In NYC there is often large swings in annual precip. In a 20-year roll of seasonal precip at JFK…3 years had between 47- and 49-inches years…yet 4 years had between 25 and 35 inches (yellow). Look at even some of the years close to normal precip (40 – 43 inches),  like 1969, 1968, 1955, ect - a single heavy rain event/tropical system saved the year from having below normal precip.  

2)Also, notice WHAT PART OF THE YEAR the heaviest precip (blue) occurred?  Nearly every higher precip month occurred in SUMMER . Often this is the result of tropical storms or their weak dying remnants/or brief heavy convective showers. While the rain from these systems is heavy …the heat and sun evaporate the antecedent precip very quicky.  

 

 This also is what I was trying to get across about the climates of the lower East Coast. NYC is a warm temperate climate on the margins of the subtropics – in a REAL subtropical climate the above effects are much more acute: Look at Orlando – how many months had less then 1 inch of rainfall…and think of what the power of evopration is when there is no rain.

If there is only 1.7 inches of rain in London and the average high is 59 F in April...think of what the rate of evoraporation is in Orlando if there is only 1.7 inches of rain and the average high is 84F in the same month (and the sun is at 28 N latitude instead of 52 N). Plants experince transpiration rates many times higher in lower latitudes than higher latitudes

 

The point, sun intensity and high temps combine to produce extremely high rates of evorpaortion.  Combine that with the wide swings in wet/dry years and the way it which seasonal rainfall is expericed in NYC, and I would guess CIDP would not have any issue with too much moisture (again assuming it is COVERED from Dec – Feb).

As far as the Poland CIDP   ...it's interesting. As a side note, while NYC gets half the annual precip...it also is warmer in winter...and hotter in summer. Using Warsaw (34 F in January) and 78 F in July...while NYC is 39 F in January....and 85 F in July.

 

[Nomad NYC]

Once again, due to the holidays, I again have a bit of time to post some more updates.

Wow, lots of very interesting discussions while I was away from this thread this past month... While I skimmed of them all, unfortunately, I still yet haven't had the time to really read them though right now...

               Anyway, as some of you may know if you followed this thread, this spring, I had decided to replaced my dearly recently departed Canary Island Date palm with a younger, more healthier one in the same location.  But this was after a year long trial growing a similar one in another location , in a little hidden out-of-the way area near my garden that I like to call "Site B" ( just like in the movie,  "Jurassic World", this is kinda my "Isla Sorna " ). This is where I can experiment and test out one in ground ( which I will call "CIDP X " ) before putting another brand new palm out in the open ( aka, my "Isla Nublar"   ) in my yard.  So before I update everyone on this year's NYC Canary Island Date palm replacement, let's all go back in time a year and a half  ago.....To continue where this testing began.

 

Site B Revisited

June 2023 :  New CIDP X planting  seems to be adjusting very well to growing in ground since planted the previous May. 

 

July 2023 :   Looks like CIDP X is thriving in the very hot humid NYC summer weather.

New fronds are appearing.

 

August 2023 :   CIDP X continues to do well, showing no signs of browning due to the lack of rain in the past few weeks.

 

September 2023 :  CIDP X continues to thrive as the weather becomes cooler, and has grown much in the past few months, much more so than it did while previously potbound .

 

October 2023 :   CIDP X continues to do well, as the temperature continues to fall. Soon it the time will come for winter protection.

 

November 2023 :  It is now  winter protection time for CIDP X - 1) Building of the Winter protection box,2)spraying the leaves with anti-desiccant,3)wrapping the palm with C9 Christmas lights plugged into Thermocube( One can tell it was now cold, the lights turned on then), 4)placing of the winter protection box around the palm, 5)sealing base of box with mulch 6) placing of the wooden box support braces, and 7) wrapping up in tarp for added protective layer.

   

    

   

   

         

 

   

   CIDP X appears to be all good to go for the 2024 winter ..

 

This is the end part one - Site B year 2024 update coming next !

 

  

  

 

   

[Las Palmas Norte]

That palm will run out of growth space, assuming you can size it up.

[Nomad NYC]

18 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

That palm will run out of growth space, assuming you can size it up.

"Site B" is just a test planting area,  will most likely transplant CIDP X  to a more sunnier and open place in my yard in the future, most likely near the other one.

[Nomad NYC]

Site B Revisited  :  Part II

April 2024: Winter is finally over and its full on Springtime. Removed winter protection from both CIDPs at around the middle of the month. Removed bindings and C9 lights.

    

   

Unlike my other Canary Island Date Palm, CIDPX has emerged though the winter looking very good and healthy. The success of this planting experiment gives me an idea to maybe replace the other struggling one with a similar bigger, healthier plant in the future. Unfortunately, this would had to be done the following month, when the original main Canary Island Date palm finally perished....

 

June 2024: Start of summer and this palm is continuing to do very well. Will soon begin application of the Palm Gain fertilizer and trimming off old fronds.

   

 

August 2024: Now the height of summer, It's hot and humid in the City, and CIDX has grown a full foot and a half since April.

 

October 2024 :  It's now Autumn, and the weather once again begins to cool. CIDX continues to look good and healthy. But in a few weeks it will be time to prepare for it's Winter Protection.

 

December 2024: The temperature is dropping rapidly, weather is now becoming colder - time to prepare CIDX for the winter, and set up it's protection box.

  

  

 

  

 

This Palm is all set for the Winter now.....Just in time for...

 

 

...Snow.

 

 

After a few days in the upper teens, the temperature here bounced back to nearly 60 degrees Fahrenheit today (December 30th ), but should soon go back to the local seasonal high of 30's, which should be the case for most of the winter ( my thermocubes in the Winter protection boxes should turn on the C9 lights on the palms at 35°F, and off at 45°F ).

   

Again,  it looks it's all good for the winter..

 

To be continued in  Spring 2025

 

[Nomad NYC]

Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled program of the main Canary Island Date Palm ( replacement ) planting!

 As like what I did for the CIDPX over at " Site B ", I will again show the steps to prepare this new CIDP for this NYC  winter.

 

December 2024 :

First, is the spraying the anti-desiccant on the fronds, and the tying up the frond leaves with mini shock cords...

   

 

Next is the putting on the first string layer of C9 lights ( as one can see from  below , the lights have been tuned on by the thermocube, so the outside temperature was already colder than 35 degrees Fahrenheit ).

   

 

The following day I briefly covered the new palm planting with a temporary burlap wrap .

 

And the next day I added another string of C9 lights ( along with support rods ) to the palm.

   

 

So you may ask, where is the old winter protection box for this, and why don't I put  it over the palm during this time? 

 Well, since this new palm is much bigger than the original sickly CIDP,  the next step will be the modifying of the original box to now fit it ( which actually took longer than I expected... ).

 

[Nomad NYC]

Upgrading of the Winter Protection Box

Since I didn't have alot of time and materials to create a totally new winter protection box , I simply took the original box , and just quickly added new sections to it...

   

 

Looks like more thermal insulation paneling is needed for this, but unfortunately,  I had no time to get any more that day..

   

 

 I put on temporary cover on the whole set up, so that I could try to continue to working on it later , when I had more time.

  

 

The following weekend I did managed to get the extra paneling to finish the new box sections, set up the final position,  and applying of mulch at the base for insulation of the ground area.

      

 

Looks pretty comfortable in there , don't cha think? 

 

This upgraded winter protection box should be more than enough room for any new growth of my new replacement CIDP ,  well, at least the next several years.

   

 

 Yes, It may not the best looking winter protection box out there,  but it's totally functional!

  

 

Doing the tarp wrap thing here as well, for added insulation ( used two tarps for both front and back coverage ).  Then all tied to support rods for added stability.

    

 

Good thing I did this just in time, for two weeks ago there was  a brief spell of a cold snap that sent the temperature down to the mid teens ( Fahrenheit ) here in the tri-state area,  so that it actually actually snowed a bit .

    

But I have a feeling that there probably won't be much of any  snow ( if at all  ) for the rest of the winter ..

 

With more than two layers of insulation, mulching, plus added interior heating , that should be more than enough winter protection for my palm - now I just have to patiently wait for spring...

 

Wishing you all a Very Happy New Year 2025!

[Las Palmas Norte]

15 hours ago, Nomad NYC said:

... But I have a feeling that there probably won't be much of any  snow ( if at all  ) for the rest of the winter ..

Awesome. Good to hear your winter is pretty much over. I'd imagine that shelter is just for looks now?

Winter is just under way here and the next 2 months (Jan/Feb) are typically when we can get some periodic wintery days.

[Nomad NYC]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Awesome. Good to hear your winter is pretty much over. I'd imagine that shelter is just for looks now?

Oh, still they are still functional . Just because there won't be snow now much doesn't mean that the weather won't become very cold later on ( we haven't even reached the coldest part of Winter in my neck of the woods,  which is usually around the beginning of February ).  But these past few years it's warmed enough during the winter here that it mostly rains now as well ( NYC  area just recently had  thunderstorms right before New Years ), so If I can also keep them palms dry as possible in the next few months, the better. 

[UK_Palms]

14 hours ago, Nomad NYC said:

Oh, still they are still functional . Just because there won't be snow now much doesn't mean that the weather won't become very cold later on ( we haven't even reached the coldest part of Winter in my neck of the woods,  which is usually around the beginning of February ).  But these past few years it's warmed enough during the winter here that it mostly rains now as well ( NYC  area just recently had  thunderstorms right before New Years ), so If I can also keep them palms dry as possible in the next few months, the better. 

I think LPN was being sarcastic as just about everyone posting on here knows just how cold it can get in NYC in January and February. You had temperatures approaching -12C / 10F a week or two ago and I am seeing a lot of cold in the extended range for you. Nothing extreme by NYC standards, sure, but certainly enough to severely damage an unprotected CIDP.

Take your cover off for next week and see what happens. A week below freezing and lows down to -7C / 19F are coming. Based off the models I would expect -9C / 15F potentially later next week in your neck of the woods. We’ll see just how ‘dry’ that freeze is as well. It looks like you will have snow on Monday, just 4 days from now. 🤔

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 1/1/2025 at 3:26 PM, Nomad NYC said:

Oh, still they are still functional . Just because there won't be snow now much doesn't mean that the weather won't become very cold later on ...

Gotcha. It's nice to be assured snow won't be an issue. It's bad enough dealing with what ever cold you might get.

I think our local forecasters can't or are skeptical about predictions more than a week or so in advance. That's enough warning for me ⚠️. 

[Subtropical LIS]

On 12/31/2024 at 11:12 PM, Nomad NYC said:

Upgrading of the Winter Protection Box

Since I didn't have alot of time and materials to create a totally new winter protection box , I simply took the original box , and just quickly added new sections to it...

   

 

Looks like more thermal insulation paneling is needed for this, but unfortunately,  I had no time to get any more that day..

   

 

 I put on temporary cover on the whole set up, so that I could try to continue to working on it later , when I had more time.

  

 

The following weekend I did managed to get the extra paneling to finish the new box sections, set up the final position,  and applying of mulch at the base for insulation of the ground area.

      

 

Looks pretty comfortable in there , don't cha think? 

 

This upgraded winter protection box should be more than enough room for any new growth of my new replacement CIDP ,  well, at least the next several years.

   

 

 Yes, It may not the best looking winter protection box out there,  but it's totally functional!

  

 

Doing the tarp wrap thing here as well, for added insulation ( used two tarps for both front and back coverage ).  Then all tied to support rods for added stability.

    

 

Good thing I did this just in time, for two weeks ago there was  a brief spell of a cold snap that sent the temperature down to the mid teens ( Fahrenheit ) here in the tri-state area,  so that it actually actually snowed a bit .

    

But I have a feeling that there probably won't be much of any  snow ( if at all  ) for the rest of the winter ..

 

With more than two layers of insulation, mulching, plus added interior heating , that should be more than enough winter protection for my palm - now I just have to patiently wait for spring...

 

Wishing you all a Very Happy New Year 2025!

I think the protection is fine. However, I would lift the tarp off the ground some, so the palm can get some air exchange. Just keep temps reasonable during the cold snaps (not too hot in the shelter) and you should be fine. Each time there is a cold wave, dew points will get very low, so I would not worry too much about moisture build up. I'm down in Florida now, but I set up my Robusta in zone 7b close to the same way...and it does fine.

The coldest temp I see for your area is 23 F in the next 7 days...and even in this cold snap -  there should be several days with highs 35 to 40 F.  There are no days in the next 7 days that will have highs below freezing.  The snow forecast for the NYC area on Monday is 1 inch, so nothing to worry about. 

 Just remember, on winter days of 40 F or higher - no C-9 lights. Even in winter the sun is strong at 40 latitude, and you will damage the palm if temps get to 100 F inside the shelter. You know the way winter temps go up and down...10 days from now the models are showing another push of mild air will come up the coast and NYC will be in the 50's F. So monitoring the C 9 light use is the most important.

IMO - Days when the daily mean temp (high and low averaged together) is above 35 F or so (frequent in NYC in winter) DO NOTHING. Any day with a high above 40 F the C 9 lights should be off 100% of the time.  Even at night, unless the low is going below 28 F or so, I would leave the C9 lights off.  What kills palms that are protected in zone 7 and 8 more often than not is - OVERKILL. The palm will be fine on it's own if you just keep the rain/snow off it on more than half the winter days. 

Your December had plenty of days in the 45 - 60 F range...you should open your shelter on these days.

DECEMBER 2024

Keep us updated. 

 

 

[Nomad NYC]

2 hours ago, Subtropical LIS said:

I think the protection is fine. However, I would lift the tarp off the ground some, so the palm can get some air exchange. Just keep temps reasonable during the cold snaps (not too hot in the shelter) and you should be fine. Each time there is a cold wave, dew points will get very low, so I would not worry too much about moisture build up. I'm down in Florida now, but I set up my Robusta in zone 7b close to the same way...and it does fine.

 Just remember, on winter days of 40 F or higher - no C-9 lights. Even in winter the sun is strong at 40 latitude, and you will damage the palm if temps get to 100 F inside the shelter. You know the way winter temps go up and down...10 days from now the models are showing another push of mild air will come up the coast and NYC will be in the 50's F. So monitoring the C 9 light use is the most important.

IMO - Days when the daily mean temp (high and low averaged together) is above 35 F or so (frequent in NYC in winter) DO NOTHING. Any day with a high above 40 F the C 9 lights should be off 100% of the time.  Even at night, unless the low is going below 28 F or so, I would leave the C9 lights off.  What kills palms that are protected in zone 7 and 8 more often than not is - OVERKILL. The palm will be fine on it's own if you just keep the rain/snow off it on more than half the winter days. 

 

 

 Let's see,  for the question of airflow in the boxes, they aren't sealed shut , and the tarp covers are wrapped in such manner that  that there is always some airflow from the bottom to the top as well.

   I'm far closer to Kennedy airport ( about a mile and a half ) than Central Park, so I usually take the official temp readings from that nearby location. Yes, there may be the recent occasional temperature spikes, but it's usually around high 20's high 30's for most of January and February.

  About the temperature regulation, I do have the C9 light connected to Thermo-Cube temperature controlled outlet adapters , which automatically turn on when air temperature drops below 35°F (2°C) and turn off when air temperature exceeds 45°F (7°C). ( I've tried using a outdoor sensor thermometer in the boxes for monitoring the temperatures, but for some reason or another, I haven't yet had any success with the remote wireless connections ). But being that CIDP's are not extremely cold tolerant, I'd much rather have the box briefly too hot than not anyway.

 When temperatures here does become warmer than 50 degrees Fahrenheit consistently ( usually around mid March ),  I  usually take off the tarps, but I personally never encountered any issues with the box overheating before then, even with the occasional temperature spikes during season.  

   In my view there really isn't a "right way" or  "wrong way" for doing winter protection, just different approaches. Every situation is different, every plant is different, depending on the variables , and it's up to the individual to see what works and what doesn't. I'm more of an experimental gardener,  so I constantly try out different techniques and methods to see what works for me. which may be totally different for others. But  thanks for your inputs and concerns -  I always enjoy learning new things and other people's experiences here in PalmTalk  forums!

 

[Subtropical LIS]

2 hours ago, Nomad NYC said:

 

 Let's see,  for the question of airflow in the boxes, they aren't sealed shut , and the tarp covers are wrapped in such manner that  that there is always some airflow from the bottom to the top as well.

   I'm far closer to Kennedy airport ( about a mile and a half ) than Central Park, so I usually take the official temp readings from that nearby location. Yes, there may be the recent occasional temperature spikes, but it's usually around high 20's high 30's for most of January and February.

  About the temperature regulation, I do have the C9 light connected to Thermo-Cube temperature controlled outlet adapters , which automatically turn on when air temperature drops below 35°F (2°C) and turn off when air temperature exceeds 45°F (7°C). ( I've tried using a outdoor sensor thermometer in the boxes for monitoring the temperatures, but for some reason or another, I haven't yet had any success with the remote wireless connections ). But being that CIDP's are not extremely cold tolerant, I'd much rather have the box briefly too hot than not anyway.

 When temperatures here does become warmer than 50 degrees Fahrenheit consistently ( usually around mid March ),  I  usually take off the tarps, but I personally never encountered any issues with the box overheating before then, even with the occasional temperature spikes during season.  

   In my view there really isn't a "right way" or  "wrong way" for doing winter protection, just different approaches. et's see,  for the question of airflow in the boxes, they aren't sealed shut , and the tarp covers are wrapped in such manner that  that there is always some airflow from the bottom to the top as well.  so I constantly try out different techniques and methods to see what works for me. which may be totally different for others. But  thanks for your inputs and concerns -  I always enjoy learning new things and other people's experiences here in PalmTalk  forums!

 

It's good that the boxes are not sealed shut. So you have that covered perfect. One really has to be careful not to "cook" the palms. Stories abound of this on many On-line hardy palm sites.

The thermo cube is a great idea, and actually one I've seen a few times.  Your 100% right of course, there is no "right way" or  "wrong way" for doing winter protection, just different approaches. However, you do want it to be easy from year to year.

Although I only protect 1 palm in zone 7b in CT, and pretty much nothing here in Florida. So I don't have a great deal of experince. However, one of the coolest/easiest things I ever saw was from Tiki -71. Rather that using hardboard insulation and wood frams (a bit of over kill in zone 7b)...he simply used a wire cage and hung Xmass light on the inside, then just covered about 60% of the palm with a waterproof trap. 

An offshoot of his idea is having a flap that opens on nice weather days. I did this for a Robusta and it is SO simple to use, on a nice day it takes 1 min to open/close the flap and the palm gets sun. It really works amazingly well.  It looks like from your photos, you have to take the tarp off, then remove the foam board to get some sun. So just another idea.

Maybe for fun next year,  you might want to try his idea. It's so easy and costs about $80 to construct. He uses a thermocube as well. I put in his link:

 

 

 

Flap to open on warm winter days - 8 foot robusta:

 

[wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww11]

you can grow palms in new york city part of the city is subtropical part is southern continental so even if canary island date palm is cold hardy you guys still get cold possibly snowy winters sometimes low is under 15F,  you may need to add some blankets protecting the palmetto from the cold weather and then you are in good hands

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 1/7/2025 at 7:09 AM, wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww11 said:

you can grow palms in new york city part of the city is subtropical part is southern continental so even if canary island date palm is cold hardy you guys still get cold possibly snowy winters sometimes low is under 15F,  you may need to add some blankets protecting the palmetto from the cold weather and then you are in good hands

I've never visited NYC, so how common are palm trees there? I envision it a place of concrete and steel with very little space for gardening. Do city parks workers plant them in Central park etc?

[Jack Lord]

On 1/8/2025 at 12:53 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

I've never visited NYC, so how common are palm trees there? I envision it a place of concrete and steel with very little space for gardening. Do city parks workers plant them in Central park etc?

The cold hardy champions would do well there as the city is 7A, located mostly on an archipelago, and gets tons of heat from all the concrete. The only one I ever saw was a Trachy growing at the Central Park Zoo. But in a large city like that, no doubt some intrepid gardener has started the trend. New York is largely as you describe but does feature areas that are more suburban- Forest Hills, Riverdale, Staten Island, etc.

I would say the most fabled flora in New York is the Fig Tree. They are all over the place, mostly in postage stamp size back yards. Italian immigrants brought them over from the old country.

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

5 hours ago, Jack Lord said:

The cold hardy champions would do well there as the city is 7A, located mostly on an archipelago, and gets tons of heat from all the concrete. The only one I ever saw was a Trachy growing at the Central Park Zoo. But in a large city like that, no doubt some intrepid gardener has started the trend. New York is largely as you describe but does feature areas that are more suburban- Forest Hills, Riverdale, Staten Island, etc.

I would say the most fabled flora in New York is the Fig Tree. They are all over the place, mostly in postage stamp size back yards. Italian immigrants brought them over from the old country.

 

That's very nice to know. I hadn't envisioned NYC as a palm tree favorable place. I guess much the same can be said when folks from other regions aren't aware a number of palms can be grown along many coastal regions of British Columbia (Canada). Thanks for the information. Always nice to learn something new.

[Nomad NYC]

On 1/3/2025 at 5:13 PM, Subtropical LIS said:

It's good that the boxes are not sealed shut. So you have that covered perfect. One really has to be careful not to "cook" the palms. Stories abound of this on many On-line hardy palm sites.

The thermo cube is a great idea, and actually one I've seen a few times.  Your 100% right of course, there is no "right way" or  "wrong way" for doing winter protection, just different approaches. However, you do want it to be easy from year to year.

Although I only protect 1 palm in zone 7b in CT, and pretty much nothing here in Florida. So I don't have a great deal of experince. However, one of the coolest/easiest things I ever saw was from Tiki -71. Rather that using hardboard insulation and wood frams (a bit of over kill in zone 7b)...he simply used a wire cage and hung Xmass light on the inside, then just covered about 60% of the palm with a waterproof trap. 

An offshoot of his idea is having a flap that opens on nice weather days. I did this for a Robusta and it is SO simple to use, on a nice day it takes 1 min to open/close the flap and the palm gets sun. It really works amazingly well.  It looks like from your photos, you have to take the tarp off, then remove the foam board to get some sun. So just another idea.

Maybe for fun next year,  you might want to try his idea. It's so easy and costs about $80 to construct. He uses a thermocube as well. I put in his link:

 

 

 

Flap to open on warm winter days - 8 foot robusta:

 

 Yes,  I do remember seeing  this video on YouTube a while back . Very practical, and It does look easy to set up!  Yes,  in my case, using hardboard insulation could be considered overkill in my zone for certain palms like Trachycarpus or Sabal, but for the ones that are  less cold tolerant, it works pretty well as far as I can tell from my experience.  But I'll definitely look into this wire cage method for upcoming future plantings of Butia and Washingtonia. Thanks for sharing the video!

( It's very cool to know that Tiki -7 and I both take ideas and inspiration from the amazing the book " PALMS WON'T GROW Here and other myths " by David  A. Francko , one of the leaders of "Plant Zone" pushing! )

[Nomad NYC]

On 1/8/2025 at 12:53 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

I've never visited NYC, so how common are palm trees there? I envision it a place of concrete and steel with very little space for gardening. Do city parks workers plant them in Central park etc?

You really should come visit someday  - You would be  surprised at how many palm trees there actually are here!

But seriously, big palm trees are not yet common in the City , mostly because people here don't think that they can even grow them anywhere in the five boroughs .  But I do remember when I was a kid, there was once a huge needle palm bush and good sized Trachycarpus fortunei  planted for a while in the Brooklyn Botanic Garden.  That Trachycarpus even had a really nice temporary frost protection greenhouse  with heating during wintertime (  I may be dating myself, but back then New York City was still a Zone 6B ).

When out-of-town people think of New York City, they always envision Manhattan , but it is just one of five boroughs that make up the Big Apple, each with it's own unique environments.

Needle palms, and Sabal Minors are definitely now foolproof in in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, The Bronx's and Manhattan. And once local gardeners and landscapers realize that they could also grow Trachycarpus , Butia, and possibly even Chamaerops humilis and Sabal  Palmettos here in our current Cfa humid subtropical Zone 7B , you will definitely see them more and more in New York City in the future. 

But I suspect that only once we hit Zone 8B in a decade or two, the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation will feel comfortable in planting full size palm specimens in public spaces.  But for now, any palms currently being grown in the city are now in private yards and gardens by zone pushing pioneers like me.

[Las Palmas Norte]

3 hours ago, Nomad NYC said:

You really should come visit someday  - You would be  surprised at how many palm trees there actually are here!

A full USDA zone warmer and another anticipated zone in 10 to 20 years! That's extreme. Our region has largely remained the same for eons and is expected to with a noticeable difference of much drier summers.

 

[Mazat]

8 hours ago, Nomad NYC said:

Kommen Sie unbedingt einmal vorbei. Sie werden überrascht sein, wie viele Palmen es hier tatsächlich gibt!

Aber im Ernst, große Palmen sind in der Stadt noch nicht weit verbreitet, vor allem, weil die Leute hier nicht glauben, dass sie sie in den fünf Bezirken überhaupt anbauen können. Aber ich erinnere mich, dass es in meiner Kindheit im Brooklyn Botanic Garden eine Zeit lang einen riesigen Nadelpalmenbusch und eine stattliche Trachycarpus fortunei gab. Diese Trachycarpus hatte sogar ein wirklich schönes temporäres Gewächshaus mit Frostschutz und Heizung für den Winter (vielleicht verrate ich das nicht, aber damals war New York City noch Zone 6B ).

Wenn Leute von außerhalb an New York City denken , haben sie immer Manhattan im Sinn  , aber es ist nur einer von fünf Stadtteilen, die den Big Apple bilden, und jeder davon hat seine eigene, einzigartige Atmosphäre.

Nadelpalmen und Sabal Minors sind jetzt definitiv narrensicher in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, den Bronx und Manhattan. Und sobald lokale Gärtner und Landschaftsgestalter erkennen, dass sie auch Trachycarpus, Butia und möglicherweise sogar Chamaerops humilis und Sabal Palmettos hier in unserer aktuellen Cfa-feuchten subtropischen Zone 7B anbauen können, werden Sie sie in Zukunft definitiv immer häufiger in New York City sehen. 

Ich vermute jedoch, dass sich das New Yorker Department of Parks and Recreation erst dann wohl dabei fühlen wird, großformatige Palmenexemplare im öffentlichen Raum anzupflanzen, wenn wir in ein oder zwei Jahrzehnten die Zone 8B erreichen . Aber im Moment stehen alle Palmen, die derzeit in der Stadt angebaut werden, in privaten Höfen und Gärten von Zonenpionieren wie mir.

you have an exciting project. i wish you continued success with the phoenix canariensis. i had a friend who worked in new york and the surrounding area in the winter months as a carpenter for interior decoration in restaurants, pubs etc. they specialized in this. this was several years ago now. he always told me that the winters are extremely cold in your area and several times fell far below -12 °C/ 10.4 °F. from this point of view, it is good that you protect the phoenix and others well, which you do very well. 

 

[Mazat]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

A full USDA zone warmer and another anticipated zone in 10 to 20 years! That's extreme. Our region has largely remained the same for eons and is expected to with a noticeable difference of much drier summers.

 

very interesting observation. it seems to me that it is getting wetter and wetter here, with more precipitation and less temperate so-called oceanic climate. the temperatures rise more sharply after frost in the morning and the daily maximum temperatures are higher here than 10 years ago and earlier.

[Nomad NYC]

16 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

A full USDA zone warmer and another anticipated zone in 10 to 20 years! That's extreme. Our region has largely remained the same for eons and is expected to with a noticeable difference of much drier summers.

 

Yes,  it does sounds extreme when you think about it  -  but then again I'd  conservatively believe that most likely most of the tri -state area will be a full Zone 8A within twenty years at this rate haha

I've been to the Pacific Northwest  before ( Vancouver and Seattle ) but only on very brief stopovers , so I don't personally know how the weather is over there as well - would assume much nicer in winter than over here -  with the fact that west coasts of continents are tend to be usually warmer than their east coasts due to the The Coriolis effect or whatnot.

[Nomad NYC]

12 hours ago, Mazat said:

you have an exciting project. i wish you continued success with the phoenix canariensis. i had a friend who worked in new york and the surrounding area in the winter months as a carpenter for interior decoration in restaurants, pubs etc. they specialized in this. this was several years ago now. he always told me that the winters are extremely cold in your area and several times fell far below -12 °C/ 10.4 °F. from this point of view, it is good that you protect the phoenix and others well, which you do very well. 

 

 

Many Thanks! It an ongoing project - hopefully it can be an inspiration for other Palm enthusiasts out there not blessed living in such warm places like Florida, Texas, California and Hawaii  

Speaking about low temperatures,  it actually doesn't often get extremely cold often here in New York City in winter nowadays - usually it doesn't get lower than 11 degrees Fahrenheit. But it does on rare occasions - last time I remember when it was super cold , in the single digits back in early February 2023, during that year's big polar vortex. It was about 4 degrees Fahrenheit outside my house, according to my yard thermometer, which was a local 100 year  low ( while my previous main CIDP was in an insulated box during this time, it was totally unheated with no cover protection, this is probably the main reason why it looked so bad and started to decline the following spring ). Fortunately, this record breaking cold snap was very brief , and temps went back to a seasonal normal 30-ish degrees Fahrenheit.

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 hour ago, Nomad NYC said:

Yes,  it does sounds extreme when you think about it  -  but then again I'd  conservatively believe that most likely most of the tri -state area will be a full Zone 8A within twenty years at this rate haha

I've been to the Pacific Northwest  before ( Vancouver and Seattle ) but only on very brief stopovers , so I don't personally know how the weather is over there as well - would assume much nicer in winter than over here -  with the fact that west coasts of continents are tend to be usually warmer than their east coasts due to the The Coriolis effect or whatnot.

The west coast of North America zone map clearly shows the southern zones that sweep northward along the Pacific regions.

[UK_Palms]

@Nomad NYC You will not be able to grow Chamaerops in NYC without protection and that is that. Even here, I lost the growing point in one of mine during the 22/23 freeze here, after a couple of nights of -8C / 17C. After 2 years the growing point still hasn’t come back, although the side shoots are still going okay. I am zone 8b most winters, but get zone 9a winters quite often as well. But even in my location Chamaerops are not completely hardy. They also prefer a dryish climate as well with minimal snow and low humidity during summer. They are from a Mediterranean and semi-arid climate after all. You are zone 7b humid continental and have had -11C / 12F with snow already this winter in Manhattan. That would have done a right job on any unprotected Chamaerops with the growing point destroyed. They would struggle to recover as well with all the rain and hunidity. Zone 8b is the bare minimum for Chamaerops Humilis unless you are building a shelter and heating it. CIDP are actually more bud hardy than C. Humilis.

[Nomad NYC]

8 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Nomad NYC You will not be able to grow Chamaerops in NYC without protection and that is that. Even here, I lost the growing point in one of mine during the 22/23 freeze here, after a couple of nights of -8C / 17C. After 2 years the growing point still hasn’t come back, although the side shoots are still going okay. I am zone 8b most winters, but get zone 9a winters quite often as well. But even in my location Chamaerops are not completely hardy. They also prefer a dryish climate as well with minimal snow and low humidity during summer. They are from a Mediterranean and semi-arid climate after all. You are zone 7b humid continental and have had -11C / 12F with snow already this winter in Manhattan. That would have done a right job on any unprotected Chamaerops with the growing point destroyed. They would struggle to recover as well with all the rain and hunidity. Zone 8b is the bare minimum for Chamaerops Humilis unless you are building a shelter and heating it. CIDP are actually more bud hardy than C. Humilis.

 

Of course you would need to have some sort of winter protection in my  zone, I did not say that it wasn't needed - only that it is *possible* to grow them here.  And they can thrive very well if one takes the extra effort and care is applied.

To Illustrate my point,  here are some pics of my nearly  *10* year old  RPS seed grown Chamaerops Humilis ( var. humilis ). I planted it in-ground back when it was five years old ( by the way, they seem to do quite well in the summertime here in New York, even with all our 'rain and humidity'... ).

  

 

For winter protection, I only need to cover it and keep it dry.

   

 

I have no active heating for it, only needing it being located on a south facing brick side of my house, as well being near a heated basement. As long as the area inside is dry and no cold air is able to get in  this simple protective set up,  I've had no problems so far.

            

 

For a ten year old palm,  it is quite small, and very slow growing , but considering that it's dormant for half the year , it's expected not to grow as fast as it would if it were in it's native warmer "Mediterranean" climes.

As a matter of fact,  I also ground-planted two other RPS seed sourced Chamaerops Humilis  ( Var. Cerifera ) back in 2023  at my other house in Brooklyn , same age as the one in Queens - so far , despite their being slow growing as well, they are looking good:

   

 

As I said before, the basic and main reason why most people here in New York City don't grow palms outside their homes is because they have the mindset that they can't , or else they are told that it's not possible due to the climate or whatnot. But If one is willing to put in the extra work and care, you would be amazed at what you can accomplish!

Ok, this is starting to get off topic - This thread is supposed to be about growing Canary Island Date Palms in New York City,   so if there is any interest.. I may just create *another* thread here  on PalmTalk on my experience growing Chamaerops Humilis in a 7B zone in the Big Apple.

                      

[Nomad NYC]

On 1/8/2025 at 12:53 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

I've never visited NYC, so how common are palm trees there? Do city parks workers plant them in Central park etc?

 

Not common,  not yet, but someday in the future they will... 

[wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww11]

The reason this man is successfully growing Canary Island Date Palms in New York City are:

1. Canary Island Date Palms thrive nearby the ocean,  even if not native to the NYC region. The CIDP can thrive with influence from the nearby Atlantic Ocean or Long Island Sound.

2. According to the person who is planting it, he is planting it in the Southern parts of New York City. The northern part of NYC (Parts of Manhattan, Harlem, Bronx, Northern Queens) are humid continental, a humid continental climate experiences hot summers and cold, long and possibly snowy winters regularly from Late October to Mid April, the southern parts of the city. (Southern Queens, parts of Manhattan, Long Island, and Brooklyn) are characterized by a Humid Subtropical Climate. Subtropical and Continental are almost the same, but a Subtropical Climate gets warmer and longer summers. (I live in a Humid Subtropical Climate in Georgia State) and we get hot/warm weather from Early April to Mid November. However, a humid subtropical climate is characterized by hot, and longer summers and mild or sometimes winters below freezing (in rare cases or sometimes it may snow). In New York City, cold weather may have started in Early-Mid October due to it being the southernmost point of Continental Climate and northernmost Humid Subtropical. The difference between Continental Climate and Subtropical Climate are that Subtropical Climates have longer warm or hot weather. Continental Climate gets hot weather from May/June to September or October, and they have more chances of longer and snowy winters. 

3. Canary Island Date Palms are pretty cold hardy, even if they come from warm, hot, tropical places they are native to like the Canary Islands in Spain, Northern Africa, or the Middle East. They can tolerate temps as low as 20 degrees and for most of the year, New York City has temps above 20F only in winter the temp falls below that allowing them to survive.

4. The person who planted them may have a greenhouse, or blanket to protect the plant from extreme cold. 

5. New York City may be warmer in the summer due to Urban Heat Effect, it is usually caused by buildings or roads when materials like concrete, asphalt or bricks absorb heat from the Sun leading to hotter temps then rural areas nearby, Urban Heat Effect will help the Canary Island Date Palm boost it's growth during the summer months.

6. Global Warming can lead to Canary Island Date Palm being more comfortable as New York City gets warmer. Palmettos may expand their native range more north if global warming speeds up, however global warming is something we have to stop to protect our planet. 

 

[Subtropical LIS]

On 1/14/2025 at 5:21 PM, Nomad NYC said:

 

Of course you would need to have some sort of winter protection in my  zone, I did not say that it wasn't needed - only that it is *possible* to grow them here.  And they can thrive very well if one takes the extra effort and care is applied.

To Illustrate my point,  here are some pics of my nearly  *10* year old  RPS seed grown Chamaerops Humilis ( var. humilis ). I planted it in-ground back when it was five years old ( by the way, they seem to do quite well in the summertime here in New York, even with all our 'rain and humidity'... ).

  

 

For winter protection, I only need to cover it and keep it dry.

   

 

I have no active heating for it, only needing it being located on a south facing brick side of my house, as well being near a heated basement. As long as the area inside is dry and no cold air is able to get in  this simple protective set up,  I've had no problems so far.

 

                      

Just as a side note about Chamaerops –while they are native (endemic) to the dry parts of the southern Mediterranean and north Africa, they grow quite well in humid climates in the United States and eastern Australia.

In my travels up and down I-95, I see Chamaerops growing in several areas along the East Coast between North Carolina and Maryland. As an example, Fayetteville, NC  (zone 8a) is a hot subtropical climate with long humid summers, with frequent (brief) summer thunderstorms/tropical rainstorms - they get 45 inches of rain annually.  Additionally, they see low temps in the teens (12 – 16 F each winter).  However, the hot temperatures of a long summer, intense sunshine, and strong evaporation help them flourish in humid climates like eastern North Carolina:

 

 

My guess, is that you should have no problem leaving it uncovered for 9 months of the year. Spring, summer and fall rains would not harm it at all.