Chamaedorea Microspadix

[Manalto]

They are under camellias but the leaf litter is live oak which is a huge canopy over this whole part of the yard. I had pretty much given up on seeing any germination. The Chamaedorea radicalis I grew last year took less than a month. I just hadn't gotten around to dumping the trays - and I'm glad I didn't!

We're in the summer cycle of blue skies in the morning, afternoon clouds rolling in, and usually a thunderstorm. That probably helped trigger germination, plus the humidity here can't be overstated.

[DAVEinMB]

Dun dun dun

[BeyondTheGarden]

2 hours ago, Manalto said:

I had pretty much given up on seeing any germination. The Chamaedorea radicalis I grew last year took less than a month. I just hadn't gotten around to dumping the trays - and I'm glad I didn't!

If you're not a patient gardener, at least be a lazy gardener!  Being lazy and letting things linger has produced good results for me on several occasions.  

[knikfar]

On 5/2/2022 at 7:47 PM, amh said:

The seeds can take over a month, with sporadic germination, but warm weather seems better than heating pads from my experience.

More than two months later and still no sign of anything popping up.

[amh]

1 hour ago, knikfar said:

More than two months later and still no sign of anything popping up.

Don't toss them, just give the seeds time, I have seeds from C. radicalis germinating that were planted over a year ago.

Where did you get the seed?

[knikfar]

On 7/19/2022 at 5:42 PM, amh said:

Don't toss them, just give the seeds time, I have seeds from C. radicalis germinating that were planted over a year ago.

Where did you get the seed?

Thank you for that. To be honest, I can't remember where I ordered the seeds from. I think it may have been someone on here with an Etsy shop. 

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Close to where I live there's this huge clump of C. Microspadix, they always have seed, and they're really healthy.

[Manalto]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:30 PM, DAVEinMB said:

@Manalto yea that looks like microspadix and it's a beaut. Did you happen to notice any volunteers around it? 

Promptly replying four and a half months later: no. I checked pretty thoroughly for volunteers and there were none to be found. That doesn't rule out the possibility of volunteer germination in this climate, however. The soil surrounding the two clumps at the Cathedral is compacted and looks pretty poor. Also, landscape maintenance of the area may have prevented it.

Germination of my seedlings in the six packs has been really good and it looks like they're ready to pot up individually. I bought some 3.5 inch pots online and got swindled. I've never seen such flimsy junk. So I'm going to return them. 

Can you recommend the best next size, and if you know a good source for nursery pots that would be greatly appreciated!

[BeyondTheGarden]

I use disposable red Solo cups or the off-brand equivalent. Cut a few holes in the bottom with a box knife, or a metal cutoff disc makes really quick work of it.  

[BeyondTheGarden]

In fact, I just finished potting up 32 Ch radicalis from Dooms Dave. 10 or 12 oz cups I think. 

Maybe the best germination rate I've had from any batch of seeds. 

Still seeking radicalis microspadix hybrid. 

[Manalto]

Jesse you gave me the smack upside the head that I needed. Thanks! Went to the dollar store and found some cups with fluted sides, which seem sturdier. Potted up 70 or so, about half the seedlings. I don't know what I'm going to do with all of them. They're still germinating.

Dave's wonderfully generous with seed; he sent me some radicalis too. Translucent cups are OK for the roots? Have you used them before? I'll keep my eyes peeled for the radicalis X microspadix hybrid. Keep mentioning it and someone will eventually come up with them. I'm interested too.

 

[amh]

3 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

In fact, I just finished potting up 32 Ch radicalis from Dooms Dave. 10 or 12 oz cups I think. 

Maybe the best germination rate I've had from any batch of seeds. 

Still seeking radicalis microspadix hybrid. 

 

58 minutes ago, Manalto said:

Jesse you gave me the smack upside the head that I needed. Thanks! Went to the dollar store and found some cups with fluted sides, which seem sturdier. Potted up 70 or so, about half the seedlings. I don't know what I'm going to do with all of them. They're still germinating.

Dave's wonderfully generous with seed; he sent me some radicalis too. Translucent cups are OK for the roots? Have you used them before? I'll keep my eyes peeled for the radicalis X microspadix hybrid. Keep mentioning it and someone will eventually come up with them. I'm interested too.

 

I have both species growing, so when they reach reproductive age, I'll cross them, or whichever of us stateside gets there first.

[BeyondTheGarden]

@ManaltoI like translucent as I can see the roots and how wet the soil is.  More for palms sensitive to wet feet, Chamaedorea don't seem to care too much in my very limited experience.  It may facilitate the growth of algae or something, but it hasn't been problematic so far to my knowledge. I'll use them until someone convinces me not to. 

[Manalto]

8 hours ago, amh said:

 

I have both species growing, so when they reach reproductive age, I'll cross them, or whichever of us stateside gets there first.

Darn it, I forgot to announce when I  reached reproductive age. Are you sure you want to supervise? Will there be music?

[amh]

2 hours ago, Manalto said:

Darn it, I forgot to announce when I  reached reproductive age. Are you sure you want to supervise? Will there be music?

Just caught the bad phrasing. I think the majority of us on the forum have already begun senescence, but when my plants reach reproductive age, I'll hybridize the two palm species. The reported hybrids are in Australia, so us Americans need to catch up. Now, to insure proper pollination, I'm going to need some mad dog or Boones farm, Motley Crue(or any other 80's hair band, excluding Micheal Bolton) and the backseat of a camaro or firebird. These combinations always produces results.

Edited September 19, 2022 by amh

[Manalto]

9 hours ago, amh said:

Just caught the bad phrasing. I think the majority of us on the forum have already begun senescence, but when my plants reach reproductive age, I'll hybridize the two palm species. The reported hybrids are in Australia, so us Americans need to catch up. Now, to insure proper pollination, I'm going to need some mad dog or Boones farm, Motley Crue(or any other 80's hair band, excluding Micheal Bolton) and the backseat of a camaro or firebird. These combinations always produces results.

Before you know it we'll have a microspadix-radicalis baby boom.

Wise of you to omit Bolton; he's a buzzkill. Years ago a friend was on a pay phone on the street and noticed a man, who he thought he recognized, leaning against a building waiting to use the phone. When he finished the call, he asked him if he was Michael Bolton. "Yes, I am," Bolton replied, "are you a fan?"  "Good heavens, no!" my friend gasped.

[DAVEinMB]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:16 AM, Manalto said:

Promptly replying four and a half months later: no. I checked pretty thoroughly for volunteers and there were none to be found. That doesn't rule out the possibility of volunteer germination in this climate, however. The soil surrounding the two clumps at the Cathedral is compacted and looks pretty poor. Also, landscape maintenance of the area may have prevented it.

Germination of my seedlings in the six packs has been really good and it looks like they're ready to pot up individually. I bought some 3.5 inch pots online and got swindled. I've never seen such flimsy junk. So I'm going to return them. 

Can you recommend the best next size, and if you know a good source for nursery pots that would be greatly appreciated!

Hahaha all good brother. Mine don't seem to be very picky when it comes to soil. I have one planted in paver base and it looks just as good as the rest. 

I don't really have a go to method for potting them up. Every time a buy a new plant I save the container it came in and just set them aside. I've amassed quite the collection over the past few years haha

[Zach K]

Are any of these seedlings available to *Cough cough*  ship to Vancouver, WA?

 

[Manalto]

57 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

Every time a buy a new plant I save the container it came in and just set them aside. I've amassed quite the collection over the past few years haha

I do that too, but recently moved and have not accumulated 150 of anything, except maybe six-packs. When I moved out of Connecticut, I tossed stacks of pots, included among them many clay pots - that really stung.

Jesse solved my pot problem (no, not that one) by suggesting what I call "go cups." Such an obvious solutions elude those of us who get stuck on a search wearing blinders. Looking forward to seeing these Chamaedorea seedlings grow. It's a nice, adaptable plant.

[TonyDFW]

More of our chamaedorea growing in deep  Dallas shade. They all came though 2021 unprotected 

[Swolte]

25 minutes ago, TonyDFW said:

More of our chamaedorea growing in deep  Dallas shade. They all came though 2021 unprotected 

Nice, that's impressive. I actually don't have these yet in my collection and will be picking some up in a few weeks. How old and large were these specimens before that fateful event?

[Collectorpalms]

On 9/19/2022 at 3:55 AM, amh said:

Just caught the bad phrasing. I think the majority of us on the forum have already begun senescence, but when my plants reach reproductive age, I'll hybridize the two palm species. The reported hybrids are in Australia, so us Americans need to catch up. Now, to insure proper pollination, I'm going to need some mad dog or Boones farm, Motley Crue(or any other 80's hair band, excluding Micheal Bolton) and the backseat of a camaro or firebird. These combinations always produces results.

Can you post your information on successful crosses. I haven’t found this info. 

 

[amh]

On 9/19/2022 at 1:07 PM, Manalto said:

Before you know it we'll have a microspadix-radicalis baby boom.

Wise of you to omit Bolton; he's a buzzkill. Years ago a friend was on a pay phone on the street and noticed a man, who he thought he recognized, leaning against a building waiting to use the phone. When he finished the call, he asked him if he was Michael Bolton. "Yes, I am," Bolton replied, "are you a fan?"  "Good heavens, no!" my friend gasped.

I would love to see a microspadix-radicalis baby boom.

I'll have to do a same age, same sized pot comparison between C. microspadix and C. radicalis in the next few days.

If I'm lucky, I'll have flowering plants by next year. 

[Manalto]

5 hours ago, amh said:

I would love to see a microspadix-radicalis baby boom.

My interest in these babies comes from the limited number of palms, especially small ones (for those of us on city lots), that thrive in humid 8B. Also, I like both species, so how can a combination of the two be anything but appealing? Are we looking or hoping for anything in particular, for example, form or vigor, from this hybrid?

[amh]

15 hours ago, Manalto said:

My interest in these babies comes from the limited number of palms, especially small ones (for those of us on city lots), that thrive in humid 8B. Also, I like both species, so how can a combination of the two be anything but appealing? Are we looking or hoping for anything in particular, for example, form or vigor, from this hybrid?

Hybrid vigor would be great, but what I would really like is a clumping Chamaedorea radicalis or a sun hardy Chamaedorea microspadix. 

F₂ and F₃ will be interesting, along with back crosses; luckily these species mature early.

Edited September 22, 2022 by amh

[DAVEinMB]

14 hours ago, amh said:

Hybrid vigor would be great, but what I would really like is a clumping Chamaedorea radicalis or a sun hardy Chamaedorea microspadix. 

F₂ and F₃ will be interesting, along with back crosses; luckily these species mature early.

This! 

I routinely plant microspadix and radicalis together (where sun exposure allows) in the hopes that they will eventually produce a cross. 

[Manalto]

15 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

 

I routinely plant microspadix and radicalis together (where sun exposure allows) in the hopes that they will eventually produce a cross. 

I'll do the same. The results will be difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate without controlled hybridization. 

What about cold tolerance? Has there ever been a case where the hybrid is more cold hardy than both parent species? (Hope springs eternal.) And what about other Chamaedorea species with characteristics that are potentially a good mix with C. microspadix, which might impart some additional cold hardiness? There are some pretty big Chammies.

[DAVEinMB]

16 minutes ago, Manalto said:

I'll do the same. The results will be difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate without controlled hybridization. 

What about cold tolerance? Has there ever been a case where the hybrid is more cold hardy than both parent species? (Hope springs eternal.) And what about other Chamaedorea species with characteristics that are potentially a good mix with C. microspadix, which might impart some additional cold hardiness? There are some pretty big Chammies.

My somewhat educated guess is the hybrid would benefit the microspadix from a cold hardiness standpoint. Observations of the 2 species after this past winter with freezing rain and temps in the high teens consistently showed radicalis to be tougher. I initially thought they both handled it the same but as we all know, cold damage sometimes takes a bit to present itself. None of the radicalis showed any leaf burn or damage to the growth point (even newly planted seedlings). Microspadix, on the other hand, showed leaf burn to varying degrees and one plant lost a couple stalks. I have both species planted all around my property with different siting conditions. 

[Chester B]

52 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

My somewhat educated guess is the hybrid would benefit the microspadix from a cold hardiness standpoint. Observations of the 2 species after this past winter with freezing rain and temps in the high teens consistently showed radicalis to be tougher. I initially thought they both handled it the same but as we all know, cold damage sometimes takes a bit to present itself. None of the radicalis showed any leaf burn or damage to the growth point (even newly planted seedlings). Microspadix, on the other hand, showed leaf burn to varying degrees and one plant lost a couple stalks. I have both species planted all around my property with different siting conditions. 

I find radicalis to be much hardier.  No damage to fronds and they always look great.  Microspadix always looks terrible after winter and I had a few stems collapse and die, but it seems to be very root hardy.

[Manalto]

These two clumps

...are in a cramped side yard of the Cathedral, protected from the south by the church building (photo #1) and above by live oak canopy. The sidewalk and street (runs east-west) are visible just beyond the iron fence in photo #2. Winter of 2017-2018 dipped into the high teens, and we've had 9B winters since.

[Manalto]

Correction: We've had 9A winters since 17-18.

[SeanK]

On 9/18/2022 at 5:29 PM, Manalto said:

Jesse you gave me the smack upside the head that I needed. Thanks! Went to the dollar store and found some cups with fluted sides, which seem sturdier. Potted up 70 or so, about half the seedlings. I don't know what I'm going to do with all of them. They're still germinating.

Dave's wonderfully generous with seed; he sent me some radicalis too. Translucent cups are OK for the roots? Have you used them before? I'll keep my eyes peeled for the radicalis X microspadix hybrid. Keep mentioning it and someone will eventually come up with them. I'm interested too.

 

I've used foam cups and those red plastic beer cups. I also bought cheap blow-molded pots from Amazon. In smaller sizes, sturdiness isn't an issue.

[Manalto]

2 hours ago, SeanK said:

In smaller sizes, sturdiness isn't an issue.

True, but within reason. The pots I ordered online barely could stand up on their own, they were so thin. Also, we may have to move our pots around from time to time while growing plants on; it's a minimum requirement that they endure at least that much activity without splitting or getting squashed.

In my nursery-pot search, I noticed that some pots have vertical ribs, to prevent roots from circling (or so say the sellers). If that is indeed a benefit, then the fluting on my red go-cups (maybe I should call them Dixie cups given my location) is an unforeseen plus.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Manalto

[idontknowhatnametuse]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:06 AM, idontknowhatnametuse said:

Close to where I live there's this huge clump of C. Microspadix, they always have seed, and they're really healthy.

Sad news regarding these palms, The owners decided to cut them all some weeks ago. Now there's nothing in that spot and all those chamaedoreas are gone after a lot of years.

Edited September 23, 2022 by idontknowhatnametuse

[amh]

On 9/23/2022 at 7:35 AM, SeanK said:

I've used foam cups and those red plastic beer cups. I also bought cheap blow-molded pots from Amazon. In smaller sizes, sturdiness isn't an issue.

I prefer the foam cups, especially when you realize the next size up is a 1 gallon nursery pot.

[amh]

Here are some Chamaedorea radicalis (left) and Chamaedorea microspadix (right) that are approximately the same age.

The radicalis were slow growers until I recently move them into more sun, while the microspadix have burned due to too much sun and have been moved to more shade.

I don't know how these will handle my 8A winters yet, but the Chamaedorea radicalis is a borderline full sun palm, even in south Texas.

The Chamaedorea microspadix appears to be maturing the fastest of the two species in leaf developement, and one pant is already adding a new trunk.

Edited September 25, 2022 by amh

[Silas_Sancona]

On 9/23/2022 at 7:48 AM, Manalto said:

True, but within reason. The pots I ordered online barely could stand up on their own, they were so thin. Also, we may have to move our pots around from time to time while growing plants on; it's a minimum requirement that they endure at least that much activity without splitting or getting squashed.

In my nursery-pot search, I noticed that some pots have vertical ribs, to prevent roots from circling (or so say the sellers). If that is indeed a benefit, then the fluting on my red go-cups (maybe I should call them Dixie cups given my location) is an unforeseen plus.

Any time i pick up new plants for the yard, it is those flimsy, cheap plastic pots get tossed first..  Thicker, sturdy ones are held for extra important things being grown.  Don't get tossed unless they're no longer usable.

The pots with the vertical ( or horizontal ) ribs/ slits, etc sound like root makers.. Not cheap, but worth the investment.. Found a few in the nursery pot graveyard at the last place i worked and took them all..  You can make several bigger " Root Makers " out of a plastic, " Dimple Core " -type material used for basement floor and wall drainage and Zip Ties for fairly cheap, ...if you can find a place that sells the stuff.

[Manalto]

We are expecting temperatures in the upper 30s this evening and I just don't think it's kind to subject baby microspadices to that sort of chill. So, they are nice and cozy in my unheated shed, 'Jose Buono' overseeing the nursery.

[knikfar]

32 minutes ago, Manalto said:

We are expecting temperatures in the upper 30s this evening and I just don't think it's kind to subject baby microspadices to that sort of chill. So, they are nice and cozy in my unheated shed, 'Jose Buono' overseeing the nursery.

Same here in Raleigh. I have over 100 baby sabals in pots outside. But I'm not going to bother bringing them in until a hard freeze is predicted. 

[Manalto]

I was cleaning up a hyacinth bean vine that had been hit by the Christmas freeze and encountered these C. microspadix seedlings.

I had forgotten that I pushed half a dozen seeds into the soil back when planting the six-packs. While a bit smaller than their pampered siblings, I think it's worth noting that these were totally ignored all summer, through a couple of prolonged dry spells, and then, most recently, three nights in the 20s. I'm sure the umbrella of hyacinth bean helped somewhat, but this suggests to me that volunteers under mature, fruiting microspadices are a real possibility in this climate.

(Scattered among the palms are some Podocarpus macrophyllus seedlings from a nearby hedge. Given the number of seedlings I've seen, I'm surprised that this plant isn't on any state's invasive species list.)

Edited January 3, 2023 by Manalto