Sabal Birmingham Move

[ahosey01]

I have a Sabal  'Birmingham' planted in my flood irrigated lawn that doesn't like something about its planting spot.  It's in full morning sun for around 6 hours, but is protected by the house to the west so doesn't get roasted by the hottest part of the day.  It gets a ton of water and I use a slow release fertilizer when the plants around it break buds in the spring and then once again in late summer.  I have also supplemented once with chelated iron once a year in case the soil is just too alkaline and the nutrients are locked up.

The damn thing has done nothing at all in the two years I've had it.  I have heard from other PTers that the recipe is heat, water and fertilizer, and I have an abundance of all three.  It pushed out half a leaf last year and that was it.  Some yellowing on the outer leaves but I just assume that's because they're old.  I know they're super slow,  but not this slow, at least to my knowledge.  I'm thinking there's something about where it's planted that it doesn't like.

Is it even possible to move a Sabal that is still very small, or am I just asking to kill it?  I was thinking I would relocate it to a part of the yard with much richer, less sandy soil.  Can anyone let me know the technique, if there is one?

[Collectorpalms]

13 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I have a Sabal  'Birmingham' planted in my flood irrigated lawn that doesn't like something about its planting spot.  It's in full morning sun for around 6 hours, but is protected by the house to the west so doesn't get roasted by the hottest part of the day.  It gets a ton of water and I use a slow release fertilizer when the plants around it break buds in the spring and then once again in late summer.  I have also supplemented once with chelated iron once a year in case the soil is just too alkaline and the nutrients are locked up.

The damn thing has done nothing at all in the two years I've had it.  I have heard from other PTers that the recipe is heat, water and fertilizer, and I have an abundance of all three.  It pushed out half a leaf last year and that was it.  Some yellowing on the outer leaves but I just assume that's because they're old.  I know they're super slow,  but not this slow, at least to my knowledge.  I'm thinking there's something about where it's planted that it doesn't like.

Is it even possible to move a Sabal that is still very small, or am I just asking to kill it?  I was thinking I would relocate it to a part of the yard with much richer, less sandy soil.  Can anyone let me know the technique, if there is one?

Acid humic soil. Like on a mound of wet compost. They ARE slow. I had community pot Texas Sabals way too root bounded. They just sprouted in a random pot under the tree, not my choice. I tore some roots but I think they mostly all lived, or are still alive… but it’s been a short time.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[ahosey01]

12 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Acid humic soil. They ARE slow. I had community pot Texas Sabals way too root bounded. They just sprouted in a random pot under the tree, not my choice. I tore some roots but I think they mostly all lived, or are still alive… but it’s been a short time.

I'm wondering if this is the problem.

Out here in Arizona, chlorosis and other growth and nutrient issues are common in highly irrigated soil that is sandy and alkaline.  Unfortunately, under my grass is the worst soil on my whole property by far (because I built up the lawn to level using fill dirt).  I'm wondering if the amount of water it is getting is locking up its ability to draw nutrients from the soil.  It is neither acid nor humic.

[Collectorpalms]

YouTube is your friend. Arizona Golf courses etc… all a science to these people I am sure you can get your answer to correct PH best. Possibly Ammonium Sulfate at watering time. I use it on my grass.  But not plants much cause I have clay and understand it’s a high salt content, which is my other major issue. Grass can handle it though. Sandy soil can leach it. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Allen]

Would help to see a pic of how big it is.  If it is strap leaf sized or just above, maybe.  IMHO otherwise if you move it you are asking for trouble.  It can look green for months, even a year then die.   Mine grew 2 feet (just out of strap) to six feet in 5 years.  In some tinkering around it seems to form a trunk takes 15-20 years.  At 30 years several feet.    Should make about 3 fronds/year when established and beyond strap phase. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Allen

[Collectorpalms]

Put Elmer’s glue on a tip of a broken main root tip. I was told by old wise palm seller, lol 

he was referring to transplanting Brahea Armata. 
 

3m surgical superglue should work if it sterile. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[ahosey01]

Here is a photo of the tiny guy:

[WSimpson]

It might be hard to dig a plant safely with super sandy soil but I have  clay soil , and it's a good clay soil because it isn't that horrible red clay that is so hard to work with that some people have around here . Basically I try to get a nice solid ball whenever I dig up a plant . To do that I dig straight down and pull straight up till I've gotten all the way around the plant . Straight down and pull straight up with the shovel and  no prying at all . Prying will loosen the root ball . If the plant is small you can go straight down and up around the whole plant and then lift the entire root ball and plant and move the plant on the shovel . Below is an example of digging a small plant .

 

If you're digging a larger plant I would use a thin bladed spade and cut 100% around the plant . Then once you have cut all the roots going around the plant , dig out one side of the plant and put a sheet , blanket , or tarp  in the dug out section and go to the opposite side and flop the plant onto the sheet trying to get the sheet under the majority of the ball so it can be carried to its new spot to be planted . 

Below , is a Butia I dug up several years ago . The first picture below  is where I have dug down around the plant 100% without any prying . The second picture below is where I snuck a tarp up under the root ball . and the third picture below is where I went on the back side and flopped the root ball onto the tarp . The fourth picture shows a nice solid ball moved into position and ready to be planted  .Just get someone to grab 2 corners of the tarp , and you grab 2 corners , then lift it and carry  it where you want it .

Also , it helps to tie up the fronds before digging the plant so the fronds aren't in the way while moving it .

As you can see I have decent soil and  sandy soil might just fall off the roots . Water well in its new location .

Good luck ,

Will

 

April 9th , 2013

 

 

Below , and nine years later . I don't think it missed a beat .

 

244E8983-ED97-4967-807F-7C01FB74732C.heic

Edited May 20, 2022 by Will Simpson

[Allen]

11 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Here is a photo of the tiny guy:

You could try it.  I'd dig down as far as comfortable still.    Like Will said the sandy soil may fall apart and you could disturb roots.   I have tiny 1st year S minor that have roots 10 inches deep.  If left there I'd remove the grass competition around it and add a mulch circle.   It's up to you small plant but 2 years for roots to grow deep. 

[Collectorpalms]

25 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

It might be hard to dig a plant safely with super sandy soil but I have  clay soil , and it's a good clay soil because it isn't that horrible red clay that is so hard to work with that some people have around here . Basically I try to get a nice solid ball whenever I dig up a plant . To do that I dig straight down and pull straight up till I've gotten all the way around the plant . Straight down and pull straight up with the shovel and  no prying at all . Prying will loosen the root ball . If the plant is small you can go straight down and up around the whole plant and then lift the entire root ball and plant and move the plant on the shovel . Below is an example of digging a small plant .

 

If you're digging a larger plant I would use a thin bladed spade and cut 100% around the plant . Then once you have cut all the roots going around the plant , dig out one side of the plant and put a sheet , blanket , or tarp  in the dug out section and go to the opposite side and flop the plant on the sheet trying to get the sheet under the majority of the ball so it can be carried to its new spot to be planted . 

Below , is a Butia I dug up several years ago . The first picture below  is where I have dug down around the plant 100% without any prying . The second picture below is where I snuck a tarp up under the root ball . and the third picture below is where I went on the back side and flopped the root ball onto the tarp . The fourth picture shows a nice solid ball moved into position and ready to be planted  .

Also , it helps to tie up the fronds before digging the plant so the fronds aren't in the way while moving it .

As you can see I have decent soil and  sandy soil might just fall off the roots . Water well in its new location .

Good luck ,

Will

 

 

Looks like My life here in a few months... I am going to try the prior root prune method since I have a little time on my hands. But they will be heavy to move.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[WSimpson]

59 minutes ago, Allen said:

You could try it.  I'd dig down as far as comfortable still.    Like Will said the sandy soil may fall apart and you could disturb roots.   I have tiny 1st year S minor that have roots 10 inches deep.  If left there I'd remove the grass competition around it and add a mulch circle.   It's up to you small plant but 2 years for roots to grow deep. 

That little guy should be easy to move . 

I would prep up a hole that would take it years to grow into so its roots will have an easy time of growing outward and it could get nutrients  . I'd get rid of the grass and mulch it too . 

[Chester B]

4 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

I'd get rid of the grass and mulch it too

Exactly!  That grass is smothering that palm, it needs space to breath.  I would probably have a 2' section mulched around that guy to start and expand as it grows..

[teddytn]

I dug 4 palmettos that were growing under a deck at a beach house we stayed at in Florida a few years ago. 2 were bigger than yours, and 2 were smaller than yours. All lived. The biggest 2 struggled really bad and I wasn’t sure if they would make it. They shed all but one leaf for 8 months until they started growing again. The smaller ones didn’t show any stress from digging. It can be done. Disturbing the roots isn’t the problem imo it’s damaging them. I’ve gotten a bunch of sabals shipped to me bare root through the mail over the years and haven’t lost any of them. I would go for it, everyone’s advice on digging the biggest hole possible to get it out, is spot on.

[Collectorpalms]

I don’t like palms and and grass together. But you do see Sabal minors growing in fields of grass near my house. But I imagine the floodplain ( which I am not a part of) is nutrient rich. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Jtee]

Here is a tiny Sabal palmetto I pulled out of the sand in Pensacola last year, it’s been in the ground 1 year now, all of last year it looked rugged, I’ve been watering it about 3 or 4 times a week and it’s pushing out it’s second frond now. I have a few others that I pulled up also, they all took some time but looks like they are feeling at home now. 
 

I noticed my uresana is pushing up it’s second frond this spring, my other sabals (Louisiana,Mexicana and palmetto) are on their second frond of the season also. They are all really small still but are getting established now.  

[Collectorpalms]

4 hours ago, Jtee said:

Here is a tiny Sabal palmetto I pulled out of the sand in Pensacola last year, it’s been in the ground 1 year now, all of last year it looked rugged, I’ve been watering it about 3 or 4 times a week and it’s pushing out it’s second frond now. I have a few others that I pulled up also, they all took some time but looks like they are feeling at home now. 
 

I noticed my uresana is pushing up it’s second frond this spring, my other sabals (Louisiana,Mexicana and palmetto) are on their second frond of the season also. They are all really small still but are getting established now.  

I believe what you have there is a Washingtonia. I have both Sabal Palmetto etc.. and Washingtonia and get volunteer seedlings everywhere. Others can give their input on that. But it does look good.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[DreaminAboutPalms]

15 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I believe what you have there is a Washingtonia. I have both Sabal Palmetto etc.. and Washingtonia and get volunteer seedlings everywhere. Others can give their input on that. But it does look good.

Agreed. I see fibers 

[Jtee]

Here’s the others I pulled up from the sand in Pensacola. They were growing next to a palmetto but there were palms of other varieties near by.  These sat in a pot last year being soaked by rain, and even know I water these all the time and they are loving all the water so I just assumed palmetto, they do look like my other Sabal seedlings but seem to be a lighter green. So I’ve always wondered about why these look different but never gave it much thought. 

[Matt N- Dallas]

Sabal Birmingham has been the slowest palm I’ve grown in the last 20 years.  I have a 21 year old plant from a 1 gal that only has 2’ of trunk in Dallas.  S. Mexicana the same age have 16’ of trunk.  

[Jimhardy]

I totally agree on getting rid of the grass which might be part of the "problem"

as its competing with the palm...dig a little circle around it and remove the grass...

then add some mulch..making a well around it will also help to direct the water right to the palm

[WSimpson]

Here is a Sabal Louisiana  I dug several years back . With a decent root ball it was growing in10 days  .  I should've watered it because the soil was a little dry . Check out that cool  shell looking part of the lower trunk .

May 5th , 2012 

 

-------I marked it on the center spear on May 5th  -------

 

 

And 10 days later on May 15th it's already growing . I watered well for most of the days after moving it ,  but still that shows what getting a decent root ball can mean to moving a plant , and even a Sabal starts growing pretty soon after moving them with a solid root ball  . 

It looks like it grew about an inch after only 10 days of being transplanted . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Will Simpson

[ahosey01]

I know this is going to inflame the sensibilities of many other PTers here, but I am not convinced that the grass is a problem.  In other areas outside the low desert I don't know enough to comment, but I would like to see some scientific papers published on this subject, specifically with relation to our climate.

I know more than one ISA certified arborist whose whole career has been spent here in the Sonoran Desert, and the perspective I've always heard is, for southeastern or otherwise tropical or subtropical plants that normally require water and humidity, the benefits to planting in turf outweigh the risks.  For one, mowing the grass and allowing the clippings to fall onto the turf (NOT bagging them!) enriches our often terrible, sandy soil with decomposing organic matter and, over time, improves its composition (though good aeration practices are important here).  As an example, there is a park on the hill near me that has had a lawn for 50 years, and the dirt underneath is a black, sandy loam, while all areas around it are exclusively inorganic rock, sand and caliche.  Separately, the grass - like mulch - shades the soil itself from the beating sun and prevents the root zone from getting hot or drying out too quickly.  Finally, the fact that grass transpires and releases water through leaf pores in the process of photosynthesis increases the ambient humidity above the turf, particularly in large, grassy areas.

In fact, Chris Martin - professor of horticulture at ASU - specifically recommends planting a large number of mesic plants directly in lawns because of these benefits.  Simultaneously, the University of Arizona arboretum also has many palms and trees growing directly in grass, though - admittedly - plenty more do have mulch rings around them.

I don't dispute that mulch is helpful for this purpose, too.  I have just never seen any scientific papers indicating that grass actually robs nutrients from the soil, particularly when palms have roots that are far deeper than grass roots (2-4 inches) and am not convinced that's more of a problem than the fact that the soil is pure alkaline nasty decomposed granite sandy nonsense in that spot.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ahosey01

[WSimpson]

I'm  thinking that getting knocked around by the mower or  a weedeater every  so often  might set a tiny palm back more than anything . That would be  the main   reason to  mulch around small plants . 

Will

[ahosey01]

20 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

I'm  thinking that getting knocked around by the mower or  a weedeater every  so often  might set a tiny palm back more than anything . That would be  the main   reason to  mulch around small plants . 

Will

Agree with this completely.

My lawn area is about 35ft x 10ft.  Very small.  The rest of the yard is mulch or rock mulch.  Because of exactly what you mentioned, I use a reel mower and trim the grass around my four plants in the lawn with a pair of grass shears.  Takes me an extra 5 minutes.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ahosey01