crossbreeding a Bismarckia

[palm and cactus collector]

I’m planting 3 silver bismarcks from seed. Also thinking of getting a W. Robusta. Is it possible to cross-breed these palms? if so, i’d love to see names you can come up with for this.

[PalmatierMeg]

Most certainly not. They are likely too distantly related to hybridize. You would need a course in palm genetics to understand why.

[kinzyjr]

@palm and cactus collector Welcome to PalmTalk.  Bismarckia are more closely related to Latania, Medemia, and Hyphaene.  If there is any chance of hybridization, it would be with something more closely related.

[ahosey01]

7 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@palm and cactus collector Welcome to PalmTalk.  Bismarckia are more closely related to Latania, Medemia, and Hyphaene.  If there is any chance of hybridization, it would be with something more closely related.

I have previously thought that - if it is possible - a Bismarckia nobilis x Borassus aethiopium cross would make for an interesting specimen.  If endowed with hybrid vigor, it would also likely be huge and grow 42ft per year. lol

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

I have previously thought that - if it is possible - a Bismarckia nobilis x Borassus aethiopium cross would make for an interesting specimen.  If endowed with hybrid vigor, it would also likely be huge and grow 42ft per year. lol

They aren't that far apart on the phylogenic tree, but if it gets done it will be by someone more ambitious than me.  I have both, but neither are flowering at this point.

[awkonradi]

Imagine a multi-headed Bismarckia x Hyphaene with hybrid vigor!

[iDesign]

13 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

They aren't that far apart on the phylogenic tree, but if it gets done it will be by someone more ambitious than me.  I have both, but neither are flowering at this point.

Source? This is a fascinating chart and I’d love to see the whole thing. 

[miamicuse]

33 minutes ago, iDesign said:

Source? This is a fascinating chart and I’d love to see the whole thing. 

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Phylogenetic-tree-of-the-palms-Arecaceae-with-generic-level-sampling-based-on-the_fig2_299104373

[iDesign]

Yep, that's the chart I was hoping for! And it explains why crosses like "Foxy Lady" (Veitchia + Wodyetia) are possible. Two questions if anyone here happens to know...

1) Crossing two related Genus:
Is there any type of general guidance as to how far you can travel on the family tree? Using Dypsis as an example, would a Dypsis Leptocheilos x Marojejya ("Big Leaf Bear") be theoretically possible since they are close relatives? Or could one go further on the tree and make a Dypsis Leptocheilos x Verschaffeltia ("Stilt Root Bear")?

2) Crossing within a single (diverse) Genus:
Again using Dypsis (since a lot of hybridization goes on with that one)... Is it theoretically possible to cross a huge "big boy" dypsis with an ankle biter one? I'm assuming not based on the size difference. The most extreme I've heard of was Dypsis cabadae x Dypsis dacaryi ("White Triangle") which seems like a pretty big stretch between two palm types cosmetically. Wondering if there are any rules as to what can be hybridized within a single genus.

The idea of hybridization is intriguing to me partly because a own a TON of Dypsis palms now, and am thinking they might get crossed (either intentionally or accidentally) at some point. Curious what types of combinations would be theoretically possible. 

[kinzyjr]

2 hours ago, iDesign said:

Yep, that's the chart I was hoping for! And it explains why crosses like "Foxy Lady" (Veitchia + Wodyetia) are possible. Two questions if anyone here happens to know...

1) Crossing two related Genus:
Is there any type of general guidance as to how far you can travel on the family tree? Using Dypsis as an example, would a Dypsis Leptocheilos x Marojejya ("Big Leaf Bear") be theoretically possible since they are close relatives? Or could one go further on the tree and make a Dypsis Leptocheilos x Verschaffeltia ("Stilt Root Bear")?

2) Crossing within a single (diverse) Genus:
Again using Dypsis (since a lot of hybridization goes on with that one)... Is it theoretically possible to cross a huge "big boy" dypsis with an ankle biter one? I'm assuming not based on the size difference. The most extreme I've heard of was Dypsis cabadae x Dypsis dacaryi ("White Triangle") which seems like a pretty big stretch between two palm types cosmetically. Wondering if there are any rules as to what can be hybridized within a single genus.

The idea of hybridization is intriguing to me partly because a own a TON of Dypsis palms now, and am thinking they might get crossed (either intentionally or accidentally) at some point. Curious what types of combinations would be theoretically possible. 

I'm hardly an expert, but in general, Interspecific hybrids (two palms in the same genus) are easier crosses than Intergeneric hybrids (Palms in different genera).  Interspecific hybrids with Phoenix are so common in Florida you have to assume any seed you pick up is a mutt.  The most commonly sought after intergeneric hybrid down here is the aforementioned Foxy Lady.

[James B]

Does this mean Archontophoenix can hybridize with Chambeyronia? Because a hybrid with the red leaf but faster growth would be pretty awesome.

[spike]

it's pretty neat that at least according to this corypha is more related to caryota than tahina, I would never have guessed from looking

[Merlyn]

22 hours ago, miamicuse said:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Phylogenetic-tree-of-the-palms-Arecaceae-with-generic-level-sampling-based-on-the_fig2_299104373

That's an awesome diagram, thanks for the link!  I would have never guessed that palms like Gaussia were closest relatives to Chamaedorea...but I was pretty sure that Arenga/Caryota/Wallichia were all very closely related.  But putting the fishtail palms in with Corypha, Bismarckia and Tahina?  That seems really bizarre.  I'd assume there is some strong evidence in their plastome genomics...

[kinzyjr]

A few other members on the forums ( @Swolte + @Dimovi ) were the original ones who shared the Phylogenic tree with me. 

According to @sarasota alex in this thread, this graphic may be a bit dated:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61711-palm-phylogenomics-dna-rna-based-classification/ 

[Dimovi]

If you want to zoom in indefinitely download the SVG version that I exported from the research paper.

SVG phylogenetic_tree

When it comes to crossings plants it is important to note that the terms species, genus, family etc were created when we knew nothing about genes. When it comes to hybrids the closer the relationship the more likely it will be successful. That is why there is no "rule" for successful crossing of plants based on taxonomy.