Teddy Bears vs Pembana.

[Looking Glass]

I got 3x 3g Dypsis leptocheilos last spring along with a 3g Pembana.   Put them in the ground in full sun in May 2021.   Here they are 13 months later.  Definitely a strong grower for me.   Double spikes on the regular.  Slow in winter, but fast in the warm months here.  I give them a lot of water.   

March 2021…

May 2021…

 

June 2022…

Dypsis pembana went in at the same time, same size.   Pretty slow for me.  Produces little sprouts that seem to die off at about a foot tall.   Not as happy for me here.    

March 2021….

 

May 2021….

June 2022…

Im surprised that there aren’t more Teddy Bears growing around here.   They seem pretty happy for me.  One of my fastest growers.  Pembana seems to be sleepy and about as fast as Pseudophoenix sargentii for me, at least this first year.  Maybe it will speed up some day?   

[RedRabbit]

I had more or less the same experience. Pembana are overrated and teddy bears are underrated.

[Looking Glass]

19 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I had more or less the same experience. Pembana are overrated and teddy bears are underrated.

I’m kind of tempted to remove the Pembana.  I’ve got coccothrinax miriguama, thrinax radiata, and allogopterra arenia busting out of pots and any one of them would be thrilled with that spot.  

Unfortunately, I’m the type of person who stares at the ground thinking for 60-90 days before spending 30 minutes digging a hole.  ….Fortunately, for the Pembana.  
 

 

I wonder of it would survive me digging it up.   I could move it to a spot somewhere in the crowd where it could do whatever.   

Edited June 7, 2022 by Looking Glass

[James B]

Interesting how palms grow in different climates. Pembana is a rocket for me. 
 

I do not have Leptocheilos, but I want one.

[Merlyn]

That Pembana looks kinda odd, it's like it had two good trunks and then one died...and the remaining one is attempting to sucker very young.  That being said, mine was about the same size as yours is now when I planted it, and it took off and grew several feet that summer.  But...my soil is on the acidic side and I bet yours is neutral to alkaline?  I have the opposite problem as you, Dypsis Leptocheilos is super slow and unhappy here.  I had a couple of small ones (1-2' tall max) in the front yard that basically didn't grow at all.  They just grew new fronds about the same size as the old ones...and the old ones died off.  I planted them in July 2019 and they were still the same size when I dug them out in May 2021.

I'm trying Dypsis Lastelliana, Onilahensis, Lanceolata and Cabadae now, hopefully these will grow well.  So far Lanceolata is doing really well, despite a couple of them being 50-100% defoliated with the January 24-28F plus frost.

[kinzyjr]

31 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

That Pembana looks kinda odd, it's like it had two good trunks and then one died...and the remaining one is attempting to sucker very young.  That being said, mine was about the same size as yours is now when I planted it, and it took off and grew several feet that summer.  But...my soil is on the acidic side and I bet yours is neutral to alkaline?  I have the opposite problem as you, Dypsis Leptocheilos is super slow and unhappy here.  I had a couple of small ones (1-2' tall max) in the front yard that basically didn't grow at all.  They just grew new fronds about the same size as the old ones...and the old ones died off.  I planted them in July 2019 and they were still the same size when I dug them out in May 2021.

I'm trying Dypsis Lastelliana, Onilahensis, Lanceolata and Cabadae now, hopefully these will grow well.  So far Lanceolata is doing really well, despite a couple of them being 50-100% defoliated with the January 24-28F plus frost.

Good to heat that the Dypsis lanceolata did OK despite the frost.

@Looking Glass

Both seem to grow really well here.  The Teddy Bears all set viable seeds and the Dypsis pembana in the area tend to stay a solid deep green vs. their Dypsis lutescens cousins.

If the photo below is Dypsis pembana, this one has been around for a while here in a public garden.  This photo is now coming up on 3 years old and the canes are much larger now.

[Looking Glass]

It’s really a study of n=1 so who knows.   Maybe it’s a dud.  Or maybe the soil there doesn’t agree with it.  When I put it in, it actually had a handful of little heads, probably planted as a multiple.  Then one by one they would die off.   New ones pop up now, but they only grow a foot or so, then bronze and die off.   The main stem puts out one leaf every few months.  

I fertilize and water it exactly the same as the Teddies.  My soil is kind of an alkaline sand, with whatever I amend it with.  

There is another Pembana on my block, very tall and a bunch of heads, but I have no idea how old that one is, or what it’s solid is like in the front garden area it’s in.   

Everyone says pempana are fast and easy….  But not for me.   

[DoomsDave]

2 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

I’m kind of tempted to remove the Pembana.  I’ve got coccothrinax miriguama, thrinax radiata, and allogopterra arenia busting out of pots and any one of them would be thrilled with that spot.  

Unfortunately, I’m the type of person who stares at the ground thinking for 60-90 days before spending 30 minutes digging a hole.  ….Fortunately, for the Pembana.  
 

 

I wonder of it would survive me digging it up.   I could move it to a spot somewhere in the crowd where it could do whatever.   

If you do take out the pembana carefully dig and pot it and it should grow. I did one in November of 2018 and it didn’t skip a beat.

[DoomsDave]

I’ve got some nice big pembanas in the ground and they’re getting some serious size. Like 25+ feet after about 10 to 12 years in the ground.

Here’s one outside my front door, nice airy canopy.

 

[DoomsDave]

Here’s some by my mailbox, growing into the wires, small clusters three plants I think.

[DoomsDave]

Ah Teddy Bears how do I love thee, yet I can’t count the ways because it’s like each fuzzy crownshaft hair…..

 

 

 

[palmfriend]

Hi,

over here I can say that D. pembana and D. leptocheilos are both starting slowly while D. pembana then starts to rocket while the latter takes a bit more time

but definitely speeds up, too.

Sprouted 2013, here in 2020...

Photo taken right now - appr. 14ft. tall. It has two stems, a third one (the latest sucker) felt off after a beetle attack.

Here the other species, ...

D. leptocheilos, sprouted in 2016, here in 2019...

...and now, photo taken minutes ago. It survived a beetle attack, too but is now gaining size. 

I like them both. Btw., our soil is alcaline.

 

regards

Lars

 

[Looking Glass]

3 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Ah Teddy Bears how do I love thee, yet I can’t count the ways because it’s like each fuzzy crownshaft hair…..

These just look so elegant and unique.  Glad they are pretty happy here so far…

 

2 hours ago, palmfriend said:

Hi,

over here I can say that D. pembana and D. leptocheilos are both starting slowly while D. pembana then starts to rocket while the latter takes a bit more time

but definitely speeds up, too.

Sprouted 2013, here in 2020...

I like them both. Btw., our soil is alkaline.

regards

Lars

Everyone always describes Pembana like a rocket.  Perhaps my expectations were a bit too elevated because of this.   A neat palm too.   More bamboo-like.  

I’m not really into Palm critical care - ICU….   I try to pick stuff that is interesting but not too hard.   Feel like I belly- flopped with Pembana though.   Maybe another go in a better spot is in order.  

 

[sonoranfans]

12 hours ago, James B said:

Interesting how palms grow in different climates. Pembana is a rocket for me. 
 

I do not have Leptocheilos, but I want one.

Yeah, but I think its the soil or other factors.  My pembana solitary(with big 7" caliper doink for trunk #2) has put out 20' of trunk in 11 years.  My teddy is about half that.  Growing palms in pots tells you little about how they will do in the ground.   Many palms hate pots.  Pembana(solitary) was easily my fastest crownshafted palm for the first 7-8 years, faster than archie sp alexander, maxima, and myolensis.  My multi pembana was planted right near a fence(waterproof clay under that fence) so it is stunted, as expected.  At 25'+ overall my solitary pembana has slowed in recent years with my archie alexander triple passing it by.  Teddy bears are less needy of water in my experience, they dont want to be as wet as pembana.  IF you want to stunt a pembana leave it in a pot or water it less.    I have a few dozen pembana seedlings from my big one, they hate being in pots.  My teddys in pots grow notably faster(now in 10-15 gallon) they are ready to plant.  I suspect too little water or soil pH may be an issue for pembana where it is slow.   When I first bought my pembanas in 2011, they were reputed by palmtalkers to be among the fastest palms out there.  South florida alkaline soils are reportedly great for satakentia, copernicia and kentiopsis, but bad for archontophoenix, Ken johnson opined that he thought it could be alkaline soil pH.  Might be pembana has the same issue.  As for california, different climate, but water is expensive there so soil that does not hold water well could be a big issue. 

[Looking Glass]

19 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Yeah, but I think its the soil or other factors.  My pembana solitary(with big 7" caliper doink for trunk #2) has put out 20' of trunk in 11 years.  My teddy is about half that.  Growing palms in pots tells you little about how they will do in the ground.   Many palms hate pots.  Pembana(solitary) was easily my fastest crownshafted palm for the first 7-8 years, faster than archie sp alexander, maxima, and myolensis.  My multi pembana was planted right near a fence(waterproof clay under that fence) so it is stunted, as expected.  At 25'+ overall my solitary pembana has slowed in recent years with my archie alexander triple passing it by.  Teddy bears are less needy of water in my experience, they dont want to be as wet as pembana.  IF you want to stunt a pembana leave it in a pot or water it less.    I have a few dozen pembana seedlings from my big one, they hate being in pots.  My teddys in pots grow notably faster(now in 10-15 gallon) they are ready to plant.  I suspect too little water or soil pH may be an issue for pembana where it is slow.   When I first bought my pembanas in 2011, they were reputed by palmtalkers to be among the fastest palms out there.  South florida alkaline soils are reportedly great for satakentia, copernicia and kentiopsis, but bad for archontophoenix, Ken johnson opined that he thought it could be alkaline soil pH.  Might be pembana has the same issue.  As for california, different climate, but water is expensive there so soil that does not hold water well could be a big issue. 

It could be the soil or pH.   You never know what you are going to dig up in the yard here.   Chunks of concrete, old pipes, construction debris that where buried over the decades.  The deeper layers of soil are extremely variable.  There were big trees and garden areas and piping that came and went in different spots since the 1950s in this yard.  

I hand water the hell out of everything though.   Right down the line of the Teddies and Pembana.  Daily when it’s hot and dry.   Pretty generous with the fertilizer, mulch and amending too.  

Pembanas are said to do pretty well down here….  Just not this one, right there.  
 

 

[sonoranfans]

10 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

It could be the soil or pH.   You never know what you are going to dig up in the yard here.   Chunks of concrete, old pipes, construction debris that where buried over the decades.  The deeper layers of soil are extremely variable.  There were big trees and garden areas and piping that came and went in different spots since the 1950s in this yard.  

I hand water the hell out of everything though.   Right down the line of the Teddies and Pembana.  Daily when it’s hot and dry.   Pretty generous with the fertilizer, mulch and amending too.  

Pembanas are said to do pretty well down here….  Just not this one, right there.  
 

 

I dont think I could keep up with my yard hand watering, its hard to judge how well watered things are when you handwater.  I do handwater but just supplementally when things look dry and irrigation is not shceduled.  My(free HOA) irrigation system waters for 2 days a week, I add another day or possibly two(depending on heat/wind) in the dry season.  You put the palm in the ground in the dry spring season, that might be part of the problem.  If the soil drains well, no telling how consistent wetting was.  My container pembanas always look rough after the dry season, my teddys look great with limited water during that time.  I know I have neglected my container palms a bit.  Through all this, my teddys look really good, but my pembanas will take some time to recover, probably will be cranking out plenty of new growth by july.   Also multi-trunked pembanas dont get as tall as the solitary ones.  

[Looking Glass]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:18 PM, Looking Glass said:

 

Dypsis pembana went in at the same time, same size.   Pretty slow for me.  Produces little sprouts that seem to die off at about a foot tall.   Not as happy for me here.    

March 2021….

 

May 2021….

June 2022…

Im surprised that there aren’t more Teddy Bears growing around here.   They seem pretty happy for me.  One of my fastest growers.  Pembana seems to be sleepy and about as fast as Pseudophoenix sargentii for me, at least this first year.  Maybe it will speed up some day?   

Well, another year went by, and Pembana caught up.  It doesn’t produce as many fronds as Leptocheilos, but now is just as tall with a couple of rings of trunk….  I kind of gave up at one point, and stopped extra water and fertilizer, and it didn’t matter.  Stayed green and kept on chugging.   Will probably snap in a hurricane someday, but stays green happy in heavy sun, without a lot of fuss these days.  
 

October 2023….

 

 

Teddies are doing good too.  Slow to reveal those white rings…
October 2023…

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Looking Glass

[Zeeth]

I'm kinda surprised how quick everyone feels like their Teddy Bear palms are. I've found them to be one of the slowest palms in my garden. 

[Looking Glass]

46 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I'm kinda surprised how quick everyone feels like their Teddy Bear palms are. I've found them to be one of the slowest palms in my garden. 

They have been fairly fast for me.  I’d say Satakentias and Roebelenii are the only palms I have that are faster.   I did hand water them constantly for the first 18 months, and give them tons of extra potassium plus fertilizer.  They have great Florida sun tolerance under these conditions, and mine are blasted by sun with only a short mid-morning break. 
Last summer was very dry, and I was hose-watering them every other day at least.  This year, tons of rain helped.   They are hanging onto those leaf bases for dear life right now. 

[Merlyn]

13 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I'm kinda surprised how quick everyone feels like their Teddy Bear palms are. I've found them to be one of the slowest palms in my garden. 

Same here.  I think this is a case where I planted them really small (1-2' tall) and they struggled in full sun and blanched out.  Then the winter came through and torched them.  I've got one Lastelliana and two Leptocheilos in the ground, but lost several small ones to upper 20s with frost.  I think I should treat them like Archontophoenix, and have something giving them PM shade & frost protection when they are under 4' tall.

[sonoranfans]

14 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I'm kinda surprised how quick everyone feels like their Teddy Bear palms are. I've found them to be one of the slowest palms in my garden. 

I also have found my teddy to be one of my slow to medium palms in my garden.  Royals, A. Alexandre, Satakentia, Dysis pembana, beccariophoenix alfredii, sabal causiarum, bismarckia were all faster.  My teddy has 10-11' trunk in 13 years from a 7 gallon, I'd say its a medium grower.  Last 3 years or so it has picked up a bit as I have concentrated more supplemental water in that area..  Might be the sandy soil spot I have it in, perhaps it doesnt stay wet enough.  I just planted another with more sun(exposed 8-10hrs) in an area with some clay so perhaps it will be different.  They are a little sensitive to potassium deficiency like C. Oliviformis.

[DoomsDave]

16 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I'm kinda surprised how quick everyone feels like their Teddy Bear palms are. I've found them to be one of the slowest palms in my garden. 

They are till they start to trunk, At least in my experience.

[happypalms]

To be or not to be that is the question both are just as equally as good as each other pretty well much any dypsis species is a grower for me comes down to climate for performance and personal choice 

[DoomsDave]

Both pembanas and teddies get pretty tall pretty fast if conditions are right. I’ve got both in my garden 30-40 feet tall.

The pembana below is in a friend’s garden. That’s a second story roofline.

[Looking Glass]

5 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Both pembanas and teddies get pretty tall pretty fast if conditions are right. I’ve got both in my garden 30-40 feet tall.

The pembana below is in a friend’s garden. That’s a second story roofline.

I like how he trimmed back the roof up there, when it started to encroach on the palm.  

From small 3g to the first rings of trunk, in a little over 2 years, doesn’t seem too slow to me.  But it’s all relative I guess.  With a yard full of Coccothrinax, some Copernicia, Pseudophoenix, Gaussia, Thrinax, Chambeyronia, Dictyosperma, etc…. I can’t complain about the Teddies much.   Maybe if I had other fast palms I’d have different expectations.  

We don’t really get cold here, so there is no winter setbacks.  I’ve kept them very wet, and tried to make rich soil beds over the fast draining sand that’s my base.  

[iDesign]

I just planted this very showdown...

The Pembana (left) is on a slope so looks taller, but the Teddy (on right, in the shadow) is actually the same height.  My money's on the Pembana for the win, but we shall see. Both have been strong growers for me. If I'm SUPER lucky, perhaps I'll be able to make a "Paradise Palm" hybrid someday.

* These two palms are closer than I normally plant, but I'm hoping to get a "wall" going between myself and neighbor's boring yard. If it gets too crowded I can easily remove the angel trumpet between the two palms and/or cut back the banana clump...  but there might be a lot of frond smashing if they do end up the same height. The Teddy fronds will also fight with the fence for a while (and need to be trimmed on the fence side) but will eventually clear it. The Teddy is approximately 14" from edge of the trunk to the fence, which I'm hoping will be enough. I'm really pushing it on spacing with this combo, and hoping I won't regret this pairing. 😬

[96720]

I have been surprised at the teddy bear I have one in Phoenix that made it through our hellish summer with no damage will have to wait and see how it survives winter!!

[96720]

A question for you growing this palm how much water do they like I think I heard they don’t like a lot of water so I have been watering it by hand!!

[iDesign]

1 hour ago, 96720 said:

I have been surprised at the teddy bear I have one in Phoenix that made it through our hellish summer with no damage…

Mine is a more mild climate but here are my observations…

- Had nine Floribunda 1 gallons and put some in mostly shade and some in mostly sun, and the ones with more sun did noticeably better.

- I then moved the shaded ones into the mostly sun spot, and the ones that had been in that spot to full (San Diego) sun… and the ones in full sun got noticeable sun damage (just cosmetic). They were three gallon at the time, so full (San Diego) sun was too much for them at that size.

- After putting them back to mostly sun I tried a few again in full sun the following Spring and they did fine through this Summer. They were 5 gal at that point.

So my personal conclusion was that they like a bit of sun when young, but not full. Then you can acclimate to full (San Diego level) sun at 5g+

Are the one that survived your AZ Summer I’m mostly shade? Either way, that’s remarkable it did so well! ☀️

[96720]

It is just at the edge of my jungle to the south so it gets some sun but not full sun!!

[iDesign]

For comparison… one on right spent the summer in full sun. One on left was in part sun. Some leaf burn on both, but one with more sun is beefier.

oh and my Pembanas were similar… ones that got more sun grew taller and fatter. Not totally shocking - just confirmation they’re both sun lovers… to a point anyway.

[Looking Glass]

9 hours ago, 96720 said:

A question for you growing this palm how much water do they like I think I heard they don’t like a lot of water so I have been watering it by hand!!

I had good luck putting these into the ground in full Florida sun at 3g after 1-2 months of acclimating them to heavy sun in their pots.  I will add the caveat that I hand watered them very aggressively during the day time…. Every day to every other day, in very fast draining soil, so the water was available during peak sun hours.  I would say that I kept them pretty wet overall.  

7 hours ago, iDesign said:

For comparison… one on right spent the summer in full sun. One on left was in part sun. Some leaf burn on both, but one with more sun is beefier.

oh and my Pembanas were similar… ones that got more sun grew taller and fatter. Not totally shocking - just confirmation they’re both sun lovers… to a point anyway.

With these, you’ll also see older fronds getting excessive ragged necrotic ends and browning and yellowing.  It’s ubiquitous on these palms at all ages.  Look at many pics of them in other posts.  This type of damage occurs more in sun, from likely relative potassium deficiency (at least that’s what I came up with after looking into it).  

In my limited experience, these are heavy feeders, who look their best with a lot of fertilizer and a lot of water.  They seem to need a lot of potassium in addition to palm fertilizer.  Langbeinite and straight up potash in heavy amounts seems to keep that damage at bay.  Keep in mind this is in my sandy, crap soil base.    

[Looking Glass]

After a windy, rainy night a frond ripped off one to reveal the first convincing trunk of the three.  The branch was brown, but seemed to rip off a little early, so hopefully any wounds will heal up ok.   The others are also starting to show their rings now too.  About 2.5 years from 3 gallon pots to trunking.   

Also the fuzz is really starting to come out.  This ginger 5 o’clock shadow seems to work like a waterproofing layer.  It stays dry and doesn’t soak up water.  

 

[Billeb]

1 hour ago, Looking Glass said:

The branch was brown, but seemed to rip off a little early, so hopefully any wounds will heal up ok.  

Damn…..You should throw some sulfur dust on that!! That’s an open wound 😳

 

The growth is fantastic tho! Trees look awesome. 
 

-dale 

[Looking Glass]

57 minutes ago, Billeb said:

Damn…..You should throw some sulfur dust on that!! That’s an open wound 😳

 

The growth is fantastic tho! Trees look awesome. 
 

-dale 

I know!  I did not expect to see this when I woke up.   I did paint the area with Daconil + Bioadvanced 3 in 1, which should adhere for a while.  I am a little worried about that spot, as it’s going to be consistently rainy the next 3 days, with no dry sun to harden it off.  Bad timing.  

[flplantguy]

If it is staying wet and looks like it may be starting, or your nervous, you can still use peroxide in light rain.  I would do it repeatedly anyway just to be safe even with a systemic in there too.  And powdered cinnamon if it stops raining will suck up moisture in the wound and inhibit microbes that way.  We used it in orchid crowns for infection since it's inert and will come off after a bit with no effects. I wouldn't use it in a palm crown though.

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

Hit it with a little hydrogen peroxide .  It will heal up fine.  

[palmfriend]

Hi,

a short documentation about the progress over here:

The trunk of my C. pembana is loosing its green color in the lower section, ...

...while the middle part is still fascinating with its strong green.

The crown looks a bit rattled after some high winds but the overall impression is it is doing well. It even made the first flowering attempt but 

the little inflorescence was too weak and felt off soon. (Unfortunately this palm is down to one but this remaining one seems to be strong.)

C. leptocheilos: 

This one definitely seized up - all new fronds are almost 6ft. long and looking phantastic - ...

The trunk is developing, too - "I guess next spring, we gonna have the first ring." 😉

 

regards from Okinawa

 

Lars

 

[Looking Glass]

On 11/17/2023 at 11:31 PM, palmfriend said:

Hi,

a short documentation about the progress over here:

The trunk of my C. pembana is loosing its green color in the lower section, ...

...while the middle part is still fascinating with its strong green.

The crown looks a bit rattled after some high winds but the overall impression is it is doing well. It even made the first flowering attempt but 

the little inflorescence was too weak and felt off soon. (Unfortunately this palm is down to one but this remaining one seems to be strong.)

C. leptocheilos: 

 

This one definitely seized up - all new fronds are almost 6ft. long and looking phantastic - ...

 

The trunk is developing, too - "I guess next spring, we gonna have the first ring." 😉

 

regards from Okinawa

 

Lars

 

Looking great!  Those Teddy fronds start to get really long after a while.  Mine opened a lot of little fronds quickly when they were babies.  Now, as tweens, they take a bit longer to grow out those bigger fronds.  

[DoomsDave]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:48 AM, 96720 said:

A question for you growing this palm how much water do they like I think I heard they don’t like a lot of water so I have been watering it by hand!!

Lots of water, but not swamp things.