Time to trim lower Pygmy Date fronds?

[Breaktheory]

Hey Palm Gang!

I have a large Phoenix Robeliini that hasn’t been trimmed in 2 years just because the fronds always stayed green…it’s been crazy hot and the parts exposed to full sun got burned - is it time to do some trimming of the lower fronds?

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Don't trim them, The fronds are still green. That means the palm still has nutrients in them. I recommend waiting till they are a pale brown color.

[Johnny Palmseed]

Do it after all the color is gone. Until it turns brown, it is extracting nutrients. Removing it while green or even yellow is like picking up fertilizer on the ground and throwing it away.

[Kim]

These are established palms. In Los Angeles, no problem trimming yellowed fronds from Phoenix roebelenii. At the same time, don't overtrim to a tight vertical ponytail! Leave plenty of green crown (180º). Your pygmies appear to be shade grown - crown is a little more sparse, right? Mine are full sun, and I recently trimmed 92 fronds from 5 palms, plus multiple inflorescences, and they still have very full crowns. Most of the fronds were yellowed; only a handful were brown. Mine may be hybrids, you never know. Phoenix roebelenii are known to be among the most prolific producers of fronds on the planet. Someone in a more challenging climate may have a different experience, and of course very young palms shouldn't be trimmed too quickly.

[Breaktheory]

Yes I’m in LA and these palms have probably 15 years in the ground - the old owner used to regularly trim them every year but I stopped in favor of a jungle look. It does seem most houses on the block do the vertical ponytail on queens and Pygmies.

they are indeed shade grown but the edges creep out into the sun - crown is sparse @Kim

Is there no benefit to trimming the bottoms? - I’ve always heard what I’m hearing above - never trimming green but I’ve noticed the queens on my block grow back fuller and greener when they have the bottom fronds removed each spring.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Breaktheory

[Kim]

4 hours ago, Breaktheory said:

Yes I’m in LA and these palms have probably 15 years in the ground - the old owner used to regularly trim them every year but I stopped in favor of a jungle look. It does seem most houses on the block do the vertical ponytail on queens and Pygmies.

they are indeed shade grown but the edges creep out into the sun - crown is sparse @Kim

Is there no benefit to trimming the bottoms? - I’ve always heard what I’m hearing above - never trimming green but I’ve noticed the queens on my block grow back fuller and greener when they have the bottom fronds removed each spring.

I think the key is to never overdo it. Trimming palms too frequently can cause the new fronds to be smaller than they would be if fronds were left longer.  Some want to get their "money's worth" when paying for a trim, and allow too many fronds to be removed. That does truly steal energy from a palm. But a robust grower won't be fazed by trimming the drooping discolored fronds of this species. This concept varies from species to species and relates to the number of fronds the species produces per year, so it is not one size fits all. 

In the top photo, I would remove 5-6 fronds from that tallest palm based on what is visible. Then they might not need trimming again for another 6-12 months, or even longer. Like I say, mine are exceedingly prolific, and I trim probably 3x a year, primarily to keep a pathway clear and for aesthetics.

Actually the more important issue is to sterilize your cutting tools before you trim any palm. You can significantly reduce the risk of introduction of harmful bacteria by doing just that one thing.

[Looking Glass]

If you are talking about the older fronds yellowing with necrotic tips it’s not sunburn, that’s potassium deficiency.  It’s pretty common for it to occur in south Florida’s sandy soils for all of the date palm family.  It usually occurs with concomitant magnesium deficiency here.  

 You should probably hit it with Langbeinite.   

I always like this summary of treatments…

https://www.palmbeachpalmcycadsociety.com/documents/PalmNutritionalDeficiencyCorrectionAndAntagonisticNutritionalRelationships.pdf

If you’re a purist, you shouldn’t cut off leaves like that.  That plant is prematurely pulling elements out for survival and new growth.   If you cut them off it will just start pulling from the next oldest leaves.  

[Tracy]

6 hours ago, Kim said:

These are established palms. In Los Angeles, no problem trimming yellowed fronds from Phoenix roebelenii. At the same time, don't overtrim to a tight vertical ponytail! Leave plenty of green crown (180º). Your pygmies appear to be shade grown - crown is a little more sparse, right? Mine are full sun, and I recently trimmed 92 fronds from 5 palms, plus multiple inflorescences, and they still have very full crowns. Most of the fronds were yellowed; only a handful were brown. Mine may be hybrids, you never know. Phoenix roebelenii are known to be among the most prolific producers of fronds on the planet. Someone in a more challenging climate may have a different experience, and of course very young palms shouldn't be trimmed too quickly.

Kim is dead on for Southern California and this species.  The only other consideration is what shade near the root zone will you potentially eliminate by trimming?  I only mention this due to the drought and need for conservation.   This species can handle a lot here in Southern California, as you can see based on what they endure in your neighbors gardens ( butchering).

[Johnny Palmseed]

14 hours ago, Breaktheory said:

Yes I’m in LA and these palms have probably 15 years in the ground - the old owner used to regularly trim them every year but I stopped in favor of a jungle look. It does seem most houses on the block do the vertical ponytail on queens and Pygmies.

they are indeed shade grown but the edges creep out into the sun - crown is sparse @Kim

Is there no benefit to trimming the bottoms? - I’ve always heard what I’m hearing above - never trimming green but I’ve noticed the queens on my block grow back fuller and greener when they have the bottom fronds removed each spring.

There are a lot of opinions on here but the reality is that trimming fronds serves no benefit to the palm. It is purely aesthetics. When the palm is finished with it, it will eject it by itself. That’s how it would do it in nature. But we have moved these things from their traditional home and disrupted their normal life cycles. And we have done this for ornamental/aesthetic purposes. Have you ever met anyone who wanted brown palms? Probably not, they want green. The more green, the better. Roebeleniis tend to hold their dead fronds longer than most people want to look at them so it has become normal to remove them. Unfortunately, the overzealous landscapers who tend to trim too many can cause nutrient problems. Also like @Kim said, some people want to get their money’s worth and cause the same problem. My opinion would be that if your palms are well maintained with water and fertilizer, you can remove the lower fronds if you want to. However, the palm will derive no benefit from doing this.

[Kim]

@Johnny Palmseed, you are correct, in the case of P. roebelenii, removing ugly fronds is for aesthetic purposes. I am speaking specifically of this species growing in Southern California, where it will thrive despite complete neglect. There is no need to fuss over these palms here other than to keep them from looking ratty.  There is absolutely zero concern that the palm might decline due to trimming a few ugly fronds. Bottom line, they have no need of the marginal benefit provided by leaving scraggly fronds hanging on.

We are, after all, growing gardens, an artificial human construct that makes use of nature to create something that is not in any way natural, with no other purpose beyond beauty and fascination. Even those gardens aiming for a jungle look cannot be considered natural in any way, because most put together plants that would never be found together in nature. Periodic trimming of dead or dying fronds is part of basic landscape maintenance, but one must be selective as to which palms really need every ounce of nutrition from fading fronds. For example, if someone is growing this palm in a location where the palm is challenged, whether by climate, soil, or other influences, that would be a different story, particularly while the palm is yet immature.

I grow somewhere in the range of 140-150 different species of palms, and to be sure, many of them get extra special attention and care, including leaving fronds until they are "down and brown," but P. roebelenii is not one of them.

 

[The Gerg]

I agree with @Kim 100%. I would trim that Phoenix roebelinii til your hearts content. They grow like weeds in SoCal. No need to hold on to undesirable fronds.

[Billy]

2 hours ago, Kim said:

@Johnny Palmseed, you are correct, in the case of P. roebelenii, removing ugly fronds is for aesthetic purposes. I am speaking specifically of this species growing in Southern California, where it will thrive despite complete neglect. There is no need to fuss over these palms here other than to keep them from looking ratty.  There is absolutely zero concern that the palm might decline due to trimming a few ugly fronds. Bottom line, they have no need of the marginal benefit provided by leaving scraggly fronds hanging on.

Couldn't agree more! Your whole entire post is so spot on. I'll be potentially be removing one of our roebellinis this afternoon as I noticed it's getting a mite infestation. I'll most likely chainsaw off the crown and mount a bromeliad on there so I don't have to brake my back any more than it is.

[Looking Glass]

I’m not really a purest when it comes to these.  I actually do cut off the older yellow fronds when they come up.  These grow up 2 feet and put out 50-75 fronds per year here, so they can outgrow a lot of problems.  I do hit them with Mg and K at the same time though, several times per year.  Fronds shouldn’t linger in a yellow state.  They should go from green, to brown really quickly when it’s time.  I look at the yellow fronds as a cry for help. 

Every house around here has a few multiples of these.  Probably the most common palm with coconuts being runner-up.    They are cheap and plentiful at any local nursery.  You can walk around the block and see the difference between those that get a lot of water and fertilizer and those that are more “on their own”.  The ones chopped into carrot tops, over and over, do get thin and anemic looking over time.  

 

[Patrick]

I remember a study That Darold Petty mentioned a long time ago at a palm meeting, or at the Palmatum, where some folks systematically trimmed the healthy leaves on certain palms and it did, in time, cause the trunk to constrict due to deprived nutrient uptake vs letting the palms themselves kill off the leaves. 

 

Probably why you see this in resort areas where the maintenance groups are really on top of their tree trimming/ aesthetics. I always see this in coconut palms in Hawaii when I visit.

 

Now flowers and seeds? I don't give a rat's behind I cut those off, unless I get backlogged and don't get to them. I prefer not to have 200 LBS of queen palm seeds come crashing down all at once on top of my understories. Honestly, NOT letting the palms seed is probably less of a nutrient draw so it's perhaps for the best to not let them go to seed. Flowers I usually leave until after the bees are done with them.

[Johnny Palmseed]

8 hours ago, Kim said:

@Johnny Palmseed, you are correct, in the case of P. roebelenii, removing ugly fronds is for aesthetic purposes. I am speaking specifically of this species growing in Southern California, where it will thrive despite complete neglect. There is no need to fuss over these palms here other than to keep them from looking ratty.  There is absolutely zero concern that the palm might decline due to trimming a few ugly fronds. Bottom line, they have no need of the marginal benefit provided by leaving scraggly fronds hanging on.

We are, after all, growing gardens, an artificial human construct that makes use of nature to create something that is not in any way natural, with no other purpose beyond beauty and fascination. Even those gardens aiming for a jungle look cannot be considered natural in any way, because most put together plants that would never be found together in nature. Periodic trimming of dead or dying fronds is part of basic landscape maintenance, but one must be selective as to which palms really need every ounce of nutrition from fading fronds. For example, if someone is growing this palm in a location where the palm is challenged, whether by climate, soil, or other influences, that would be a different story, particularly while the palm is yet immature.

I grow somewhere in the range of 140-150 different species of palms, and to be sure, many of them get extra special attention and care, including leaving fronds until they are "down and brown," but P. roebelenii is not one of them.

 

It seems like you are trying to instruct me regarding palm care in California. I have never lived there and I don’t plan on it. I don’t really have any guidance to give @Breaktheory other than answering the question that he asked - “Is there no benefit to trimming the bottoms?” The answer is no, there is no benefit (to the plant). It’s only an aesthetic benefit (to humans). Obviously, it’s his palm and he can trim it as much or as little as he wants. But he is new here and is asking for advice. He has already assumed that the lower fronds are burned due to the heatwave. If they have been on there for 2 years, it’s just normal. To me, the plant looks adequately trimmed already. But that’s just an opinion. I’m not a plant biologist but I have grown plenty of Roebeleniis. My experience (opinion) has been that leaving the fronds on until brown has kept the plant more healthy than my neighbors who trims more freely. My opinion is that it looks like it could use some additional water, especially due to the heat wave which is causing stress. I would never make a statement using terms like “zero concern” or “no need of the marginal benefit” after looking at a picture. I’m curious as to how you derived these conclusions. 

[Breaktheory]

Thanks everyone - I ended up trimming 4-5 fronds between the front 2 and it looks a lot cleaner with no real loss of root zone shade 

[Palmfarmer]

Trim away! You dont need to wait for them to wilt. I see some people be completly hysterious about it. I think trimming a medium-fast growing palm that is established in a warm enough Climate will do nothing bad unless you do it very frequently. ( exception is crown shafted ones) 

however If you are zone pushing lets say a Kentia I would only trim of completly dead fronds.