Dypsis Decipiens Hybrids

[The Gerg]

There have been a couple posts regarding Dypsis decipiens hybrids recently. I thought it might be a good idea to create a thread where we could track and compare over time. So @iDesign, @ExperimentalGrower, @Hilo Jason, @Josh-O and anyone else who either know or suspect they may have a DD hybrid, let’s see them & track them here.

I have at least two that I recently acquired that undoubtedly are hybrids. Observant palmtalkers and quite frankly my better judgement brought this to my attention. These were brought in to the Ventura Green Thumb nursery by (I’m told) a former manager who is a long time palm collector himself. These were labeled as Dypsis decipiens. To be honest, I believe any hybridization was unintentional.

 

This next smaller one is starting to bifurcate with a second growth point typical to a DD (or Dypsis ambositrae) as opposed to suckering say like a Dypsis onilahensis. The leafs however do not look very decipiens like.

 

This 3rd one has more of a typical DD look to it. The leaflets even appear a little wider than the other two. Could this one have missed an accidental hybridization and be pure DD? Not sure. Time will tell I guess. My experience with DD’s is there should be a lot of red color to the spear and newly opened leaf. If this one opens straight green I’m going to say it’s a hybrid. (No current spear)

 

Now hopefully this will encourage me to get these into the ground sooner than later. 
 

Let’s see them. Hopefully hybrid vigor will prevail and we will have a quicker growth rate than a pure Dypsis decipiens.

[ExperimentalGrower]

After much commentary via social media and palmtalkers, it appears I too, may have a hybrid. Hybrid vigor seems to prevail with mine. I’ve seen much more rapid growth than what others describe DD as having, also this one has been quicker than my pure onhilahensis. Some suggested maybe it’s a hybrid of DD x lutescens. 
 

But in Northern California D. lutescens is a disaster. They can’t handle the cool wet. I have one as protected as I can offer, in a pot, up on a high deck. It’s the worst looking palm I have by far. The one in the pictures has never blinked an eye at the cool wet weather which makes me think it could be a DD x onhilahensis hybrid. I hope that’s it! Just planted in my yard this week, after seeing it triple in size over two years in a pot, and it’s looking like it is about to split into a quad!

 

[iDesign]

Great idea. Mine was purchased in February 2022 from @Josh-O at Fairview Nursery. Here's the original description and photos (I purchased the plant on the right of the first photo)...

Description from original listing: 

I have a couple super rare Dypsis decipiens x onilahensis hybrids I decided to sell. Its not very often that this hybrid becomes available and is a total collector palm!

I have 2qty  10 gallon specimens that are just starting to trunk. These can take full sun right out of the greenhouse no problem (speaking from experience)

The leaves are nice and stiff just like decipiens. This hybrid originated out of a private collection in Hawaii many years ago.

[iDesign]

And here are two pics from my plant as of today. I have them in partial sun and they seem happy so far. Longer term plan is to plant them in an area that gets a TON of sun, From Josh's description full sun (in my relatively mild climate) should be fine.

[Tracy]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:40 PM, The Gerg said:

My experience with DD’s is there should be a lot of red color to the spear and newly opened leaf. If this one opens straight green I’m going to say it’s a hybrid. (No current spear)

While I have the red on both the ones I'm growing, I distinctly remember hearing that mine were the "red spear form", which implied there is also a green.  I can't remember the nickname of the red form one I bought at the Palm Society auction, but I do recall being told that it was a more vigorous form.  It is the more vigorous of the two I'm growing but was it marketing and a coincidence or something the seller/promoter really knew would be the case?  It's been way to long for me to remember who donated it to the auction to ask them.  Bottom line, absence of the red color shouldn't be a tool used to rule out Dypsis decipiens.  You have plenty of other indicator's to watch for as it grows to determine if it is a hybrid Greg.  The biggest difference in the specimens you posted is the height stretch in the exposed crownshaft, with the posited hybrids being very tall relative to the thickness.  Typical true D decipiens will stay low and grow wider at the base before the crownshaft's start stretching upward before forming any trunk.  Stiffness of the leaflets and how they are held coming off the rachis (V shape or more lax) are other factors to watch.  Either way, as you said, they will be cool plants.  The only reason it will be helpful in the short run to know the identity is to best plan the space for them.

[The Gerg]

@Tracy, I am aware of the other indicators you mentioned, but I was not aware of the two spear colors. That’s good to know. Do you know if the “red form” eventually loses the reddish as it ages. For some reason I am assuming so. Mainly because I have never personally seen a large specimen with the red on it.

Thanks for the input. I’m always learning.

[Hilo Jason]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:40 AM, The Gerg said:

There have been a couple posts regarding Dypsis decipiens hybrids recently. I thought it might be a good idea to create a thread where we could track and compare over time. So @iDesign, @ExperimentalGrower, @Hilo Jason, @Josh-O and anyone else who either know or suspect they may have a DD hybrid, let’s see them & track them here.

I have at least two that I recently acquired that undoubtedly are hybrids. Observant palmtalkers and quite frankly my better judgement brought this to my attention. These were brought in to the Ventura Green Thumb nursery by (I’m told) a former manager who is a long time palm collector himself. These were labeled as Dypsis decipiens. To be honest, I believe any hybridization was unintentional.

 

This next smaller one is starting to bifurcate with a second growth point typical to a DD (or Dypsis ambositrae) as opposed to suckering say like a Dypsis onilahensis. The leafs however do not look very decipiens like.

 

This 3rd one has more of a typical DD look to it. The leaflets even appear a little wider than the other two. Could this one have missed an accidental hybridization and be pure DD? Not sure. Time will tell I guess. My experience with DD’s is there should be a lot of red color to the spear and newly opened leaf. If this one opens straight green I’m going to say it’s a hybrid. (No current spear)

 

Now hopefully this will encourage me to get these into the ground sooner than later. 
 

Let’s see them. Hopefully hybrid vigor will prevail and we will have a quicker growth rate than a pure Dypsis decipiens.

I’ve been out of town for a few weeks but am now home. I’ll be out at our coastal property tomorrow which is where I moved the Decipiens hybrid too. It’s doing good out there and growing fast. I’ll try my best to take a picture tomorrow. 

[Hilo Jason]

Finally made it out to the property to work and took these pictures of the Decipiens hybrid. This is from the same batch that Josh O had and Stacey bought from him. Most likely crossed with Onilahensis. 
 

Not the easiest Palm to photograph since it’s split twice into 4 total plants now. So there are somewhat stiff fronds all over the place at this height. 

Pretty fast grower. I dug this out of my Hilo garden, had it in a 15 gallon pot for 9 months and then planted out in full blasting sun, close to the ocean. Had a spear pull and pushed right through that. 

Best described as a somewhat beefier Onilahensis with stiff leaflets. 

 

[tim_brissy_13]

3 hours ago, Hilo Jason said:

Finally made it out to the property to work and took these pictures of the Decipiens hybrid. This is from the same batch that Josh O had and Stacey bought from him. Most likely crossed with Onilahensis. 
 

Not the easiest Palm to photograph since it’s split twice into 4 total plants now. So there are somewhat stiff fronds all over the place at this height. 

Pretty fast grower. I dug this out of my Hilo garden, had it in a 15 gallon pot for 9 months and then planted out in full blasting sun, close to the ocean. Had a spear pull and pushed right through that. 

Best described as a somewhat beefier Onilahensis with stiff leaflets. 

 

That’s seriously cool! Looks like what I would’ve pictured as halfway between the 2 species. 

[The Gerg]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:24 PM, Hilo Jason said:

Finally made it out to the property to work and took these pictures of the Decipiens hybrid. This is from the same batch that Josh O had and Stacey bought from him. Most likely crossed with Onilahensis. 
 

Not the easiest Palm to photograph since it’s split twice into 4 total plants now. So there are somewhat stiff fronds all over the place at this height. 

Pretty fast grower. I dug this out of my Hilo garden, had it in a 15 gallon pot for 9 months and then planted out in full blasting sun, close to the ocean. Had a spear pull and pushed right through that. 

Best described as a somewhat beefier Onilahensis with stiff leaflets

Looks good. I would be happy if mine turned out looking like yours. Not sure if mine are hybridized with onilahensis or something else, but it looks a lot like Stacy’s and a younger version of yours. The smallest one I bought may be different than the other two I bought. Time will tell. Being that mine were just sold as “Dypsis decipiens” these are likely an accidental cross and could be different from each other.

On a side note, I look forward to the development of your new garden. I hope you plan to document the development much like your Hilo garden.

[iDesign]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:24 PM, Hilo Jason said:

Finally made it out to the property to work and took these pictures of the Decipiens hybrid...
Best described as a somewhat beefier Onilahensis with stiff leaflets. 

Thank you so much for the pics! This helps tremendously in my planning... since I was debating between two possible placements. Looks like so far it's favoring the Onilahensis side more than the DD one... but WAY COOLER than a normal Onilahensis! Love the stiff leaflets 

Thanks again!

[LJG]

The plants that were/are being sold as Decipiens x Onilahensis by Josh are only a guess as to the father. The Decipiens was open pollinated in a Hawaiian garden, so it is anyones guess. Onilahensis/Baronii type certainly seems to be a fair guess as to the dad. I have two of these planted and they handle full sun right out the gate. Great plant for SoCal. 

[iDesign]

1 hour ago, LJG said:

...I have two of these planted and they handle full sun right out the gate. Great plant for SoCal. 

Would love to see a photo of yours at some point (whenever you get a moment). Sounds like yours is from the same batch as mine so likely similar size (Jason's is of course a bit ahead growth-wise due to the HI location). I'm excited to try this one out in one of my FULL SUN locations.

[Hilo Jason]

6 hours ago, The Gerg said:

Looks good. I would be happy if mine turned out looking like yours. Not sure if mine are hybridized with onilahensis or something else, but it looks a lot like Stacy’s and a younger version of yours. The smallest one I bought may be different than the other two I bought. Time will tell. Being that mine were just sold as “Dypsis decipiens” these are likely an accidental cross and could be different from each other.

On a side note, I look forward to the development of your new garden. I hope you plan to document the development much like your Hilo garden.

I plan on starting a thread at some point to document this new garden. I’ve been taking pictures as I’ve been working out there.  So I have plenty of pictures, just need the time to put the thread together and organize it all. 

[Hilo Jason]

5 hours ago, iDesign said:

Thank you so much for the pics! This helps tremendously in my planning... since I was debating between two possible placements. Looks like so far it's favoring the Onilahensis side more than the DD one... but WAY COOLER than a normal Onilahensis! Love the stiff leaflets 

Thanks again!

I’m glad the pictures were helpful for you. It’s a nice palm and yeah, definitely will like full sun in Coastal So Cal. 

I have several more Dypsis hybrids in the ground there and more to be planted soon. So I will work on getting some updates together. I have a “Madagascar” section at this new property that I am excited to see develop and grow over time. 

[LJG]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:45 PM, iDesign said:

Would love to see a photo of yours at some point (whenever you get a moment). Sounds like yours is from the same batch as mine so likely similar size (Jason's is of course a bit ahead growth-wise due to the HI location). I'm excited to try this one out in one of my FULL SUN locations.

Here is the largest. 

[iDesign]

3 hours ago, LJG said:

Here is the largest...

Looks like it's slowly growing fatter (aka "beefier") at the base... cool! Thanks everyone for the comparison pics 

* Out of curiosity, I dropped by my local "Green Thumb" nursery (in San Marcos) to see if they're distributing these (if they were I was going to snag a couple for my fellow Palmtalkers). But nothing but boring Kings, Queens & Pigmy Dates in the Palm section at my location.  I wonder where all the other hybrids ended up... they seem like a great option for a full-sun area of the yard.

[The Gerg]

Len’s looks really nice.
 

3 minutes ago, iDesign said:

Looks like it's slowly growing fatter (aka "beefier") at the base... cool!

That’s what I think would be really cool looking, fatter trunks to set it apart from the standard onilahensis’s or baronii’s. So a little beefier with stiffer leafs sounds great to me.

[Hilo Jason]

Thanks Len, looks great! 

[Billeb]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:24 PM, Hilo Jason said:

….Best described as a somewhat beefier Onilahensis with stiff leaflets. 

That’s a cool looking tree. Looks to get better and better with age. 
 

-dale

[IBGraham]

Any Updates? Id love to see how they are doing.

[ExperimentalGrower]

Looks like a four trunker so far, ones about to split.

[ExperimentalGrower]

From a year ago.

[BayAndroid]

2 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Looks like a four trunker so far, ones about to split.

That looks really good! 

[Billeb]

4 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Looks like a four trunker so far, ones about to split.

Justin, that plant is starting to take on a super cool look. I see a lot of Decipiens’ traits in that recipe. I’d love to get my hands on one of these. 
 

-dale 

[iDesign]

Thanks for posting! I just looked at mine and it doesn't look different enough to be worth posting (yet). I do see a couple new spears forming though, so will post an updated photo when those open up.

I'm really curious about how these are going to look when more mature, since I'd place it in a different location depending on whether it will look more like a "2-4 fat tree trunks" (like decipiens) vs "bushy with lots of thin trunks" (like lutescens). My crystal ball is cloudy. 🔮

[IBGraham]

Looks GREAT!!

[Hilo Jason]

On 7/28/2022 at 5:24 PM, Hilo Jason said:

Finally made it out to the property to work and took these pictures of the Decipiens hybrid. This is from the same batch that Josh O had and Stacey bought from him. Most likely crossed with Onilahensis. 
 

Not the easiest Palm to photograph since it’s split twice into 4 total plants now. So there are somewhat stiff fronds all over the place at this height. 

Pretty fast grower. I dug this out of my Hilo garden, had it in a 15 gallon pot for 9 months and then planted out in full blasting sun, close to the ocean. Had a spear pull and pushed right through that. 

Best described as a somewhat beefier Onilahensis with stiff leaflets. 

 

Updated pics below. Almost exactly one year later. I really need to weed this area!  Everything grows too fast out at the property and I’m only there once a week. Sorry it looks like a mess. But the pic of the trunks shows the growth. Peroxide bottle for scale. 
 

 

[IBGraham]

Does anyone have any Frost/ Cold damage info on the dypsis decipiens x dypsis onilahensis? I just got one from Josh but before I plant it id love to have some additional data. Or at the very least what are the coldest temps you have seen it take without damage or to much damage? As we all know placement can make all the difference.  

[ExperimentalGrower]

8 hours ago, IBGraham said:

Does anyone have any Frost/ Cold damage info on the dypsis decipiens x dypsis onilahensis? I just got one from Josh but before I plant it id love to have some additional data. Or at the very least what are the coldest temps you have seen it take without damage or to much damage? As we all know placement can make all the difference.  

This past winter in Vallejo was the worst we’ve had in awhile, a sentiment shared by quite a few in California. We had perhaps 7-8 frost events. The lowest was 28.0F, other events ranged from around that to about freezing. So many wet frosts due to all the excessive rain. Countless nights in the low to mid 30’s. This palm was more or less unaffected. I thought I spotted the slightest hint of spotting but couldn’t locate any subsequent damage after winter so it was likely just an acute reaction that didn’t last. Impressive for a palm just planted, dealing with the crazy winter weather we had. I had a very loosely draped, small single layer of old frost cloth over the top. It was a loose triangle and didn’t really stretch over the sides of the palm, almost pointless but that’s what I had at the moment. Pretty tough. Here’s some more pics… anyone want to guess what the DD (CD) hybridized with?

 

[IBGraham]

6 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

This past winter in Vallejo was the worst we’ve had in awhile, a sentiment shared by quite a few in California. We had perhaps 7-8 frost events. The lowest was 28.0F, other events ranged from around that to about freezing. So many wet frosts due to all the excessive rain. Countless nights in the low to mid 30’s. This palm was more or less unaffected. I thought I spotted the slightest hint of spotting but couldn’t locate any subsequent damage after winter so it was likely just an acute reaction that didn’t last. Impressive for a palm just planted, dealing with the crazy winter weather we had. I had a very loosely draped, small single layer of old frost cloth over the top. It was a loose triangle and didn’t really stretch over the sides of the palm, almost pointless but that’s what I had at the moment. Pretty tough. Here’s some more pics… anyone want to guess what the DD (CD) hybridized with?

 

Thanks!! Very Helpful information!! 

[flplantguy]

I wonder if you could create hybrid vigor like orchids have sometimes.  They will backcross the species in multiple generations after hybridizing, and select for plants that have the most desireable traits.  In this case tolerance to different weather extremes, usually heat and larger than preffered diurnal differences.  Are these hybrids all stronger than their parents?

[BayAndroid]

15 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

This past winter in Vallejo was the worst we’ve had in awhile, a sentiment shared by quite a few in California. We had perhaps 7-8 frost events. The lowest was 28.0F, other events ranged from around that to about freezing. So many wet frosts due to all the excessive rain. Countless nights in the low to mid 30’s. This palm was more or less unaffected. I thought I spotted the slightest hint of spotting but couldn’t locate any subsequent damage after winter so it was likely just an acute reaction that didn’t last. Impressive for a palm just planted, dealing with the crazy winter weather we had. I had a very loosely draped, small single layer of old frost cloth over the top. It was a loose triangle and didn’t really stretch over the sides of the palm, almost pointless but that’s what I had at the moment. Pretty tough. Here’s some more pics… anyone want to guess what the DD (CD) hybridized with?

 

It will be awesome to follow the progress of this one. Also, seeing it come through winter so well is very promising. 

[awkonradi]

There are some great looking palms in this thread.!  Thanks to everyone for sharing your pictures and experiences.

[ExperimentalGrower]

2 hours ago, flplantguy said:

I wonder if you could create hybrid vigor like orchids have sometimes.  They will backcross the species in multiple generations after hybridizing, and select for plants that have the most desireable traits.  In this case tolerance to different weather extremes, usually heat and larger than preffered diurnal differences.  Are these hybrids all stronger than their parents?

My palm has crazy hybrid vigor. Quite fast considering it’s progeny.

[Tracy]

2 hours ago, flplantguy said:

I wonder if you could create hybrid vigor like orchids have sometimes.  They will backcross the species in multiple generations after hybridizing, and select for plants that have the most desireable traits.  In this case tolerance to different weather extremes, usually heat and larger than preffered diurnal differences.  Are these hybrids all stronger than their parents?

Some of the challenge in backcrossing and trying to select for desirable traits has to do with the length of time to get a plant to flowering size, or in the case of cycads coning size.  Some hybrid palms may show hybrid vigor in growth and ability to endure temps as small but you still have to wait for it to grow to the size of flowering before cross pollinating again, and waiting to see if the trait carries forward.  My experience with orchids is that they mature to flowering size much faster, making the process a bit easier to get to those later generations.

I mentioned cycads only because the back crossing is a real goal with Encephalartos woodii because there are no known females and it is the only way to try to get back to what a possible female E woodii would have looked like.  I don't know how many generations they are up to in back pollinating with E woodii pollen, but each generation is a slow process.  I have heard of F3's but don't know if anyone has achieved more than that.

Back to the topic at hand, Chrysalidocarpus decipiens hybrids....  I don't have anything I acquired as a hybrid of this species, but I do have one that has behaved a bit suspiciously.  No hybrid vigor, in fact quite the opposite.  It has split into 4 trunks and remains small after 13 years in the ground.  I say slow, because I planted another Chrysalidocarpus decipiens which is much faster, and while not trunking yet, it's pair of trunks are much wider and leaves are easily triple the height.  The slow one has a five year head start.  Someday... way in the future , it will flower and I'll know better whether it is a true species or a hybrid of some sort.  The trunks in photo 1 and the full plant in the background in photo 2 from this last January.  I'll have to get updated shots, as it has grown some this spring and early summer.  Note the Corralloid roots at the base of the trunks.  Not sure which cycad's roots those are as there are probably 3 potential candidates nearby.  I don't think they are guilty of doing any harm.

 

 

[ExperimentalGrower]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Some of the challenge in backcrossing and trying to select for desirable traits has to do with the length of time to get a plant to flowering size, or in the case of cycads coning size.  Some hybrid palms may show hybrid vigor in growth and ability to endure temps as small but you still have to wait for it to grow to the size of flowering before cross pollinating again, and waiting to see if the trait carries forward.  My experience with orchids is that they mature to flowering size much faster, making the process a bit easier to get to those later generations.

I mentioned cycads only because the back crossing is a real goal with Encephalartos woodii because there are no known females and it is the only way to try to get back to what a possible female E woodii would have looked like.  I don't know how many generations they are up to in back pollinating with E woodii pollen, but each generation is a slow process.  I have heard of F3's but don't know if anyone has achieved more than that.

Back to the topic at hand, Chrysalidocarpus decipiens hybrids....  I don't have anything I acquired as a hybrid of this species, but I do have one that has behaved a bit suspiciously.  No hybrid vigor, in fact quite the opposite.  It has split into 4 trunks and remains small after 13 years in the ground.  I say slow, because I planted another Chrysalidocarpus decipiens which is much faster, and while not trunking yet, it's pair of trunks are much wider and leaves are easily triple the height.  The slow one has a five year head start.  Someday... way in the future , it will flower and I'll know better whether it is a true species or a hybrid of some sort.  The trunks in photo 1 and the full plant in the background in photo 2 from this last January.  I'll have to get updated shots, as it has grown some this spring and early summer.  Note the Corralloid roots at the base of the trunks.  Not sure which cycad's roots those are as there are probably 3 potential candidates nearby.  I don't think they are guilty of doing any harm.

 

 

Those corralloid roots at the base of the palm are crazy. Remarkable, I thought cycads generally kept them near the caudex.

[iDesign]

On 7/15/2023 at 4:01 PM, ExperimentalGrower said:

Looks like a four trunker so far, ones about to split.

Mine's still in its pot and not as pristine, but I was moving it so thought I'd take a quick photo.

The form looks pretty similar to yours, though mine has stayed at two trunks so far...

I'm currently planning to plant it in an area that gets a LOT of sun. I'm thinking the leaf damage in the photo is from the relatively cold winter we had (not sun)... but I wasn't paying close enough attention to say for sure. If someone can say whether the damage is sun or cold (or something else) I'd appreciate it.

[ExperimentalGrower]

57 minutes ago, iDesign said:

Mine's still in its pot and not as pristine, but I was moving it so thought I'd take a quick photo.

The form looks pretty similar to yours, though mine has stayed at two trunks so far...

I'm currently planning to plant it in an area that gets a LOT of sun. I'm thinking the leaf damage in the photo is from the relatively cold winter we had (not sun)... but I wasn't paying close enough attention to say for sure. If someone can say whether the damage is sun or cold (or something else) I'd appreciate it.

Ya looks the same as mine. Mine tended to burn sometimes in the heat of the sun if I wasn’t really consistent with water. That would be my guess. These handle the cold really well in my experience.

[BayAndroid]

2 hours ago, iDesign said:

Mine's still in its pot and not as pristine, but I was moving it so thought I'd take a quick photo.

The form looks pretty similar to yours, though mine has stayed at two trunks so far...

I'm currently planning to plant it in an area that gets a LOT of sun. I'm thinking the leaf damage in the photo is from the relatively cold winter we had (not sun)... but I wasn't paying close enough attention to say for sure. If someone can say whether the damage is sun or cold (or something else) I'd appreciate it.

What was your lowest temperature? Just curious, I have a regular Decipiens I just planted in the ground this Summer. Hoping they hold up well in my conditions.