Anybody have pics of Butia Yatay?

[feef706]

There are alot of Butia capitita in my area alot of them look really scraggly with thin trunks but my neigbor behind me has a very stought butia and Im wondering if it is a yatay or some other variety. It has retained all of its leaf bases and I think its leaves are more green than the common blue green leaves I see on most of the butia's around. It has about 5-6 feet of clear trunk with a very full crown and I think is about 18 years in the ground from what he told me, Ill try and get pics. Thanks alot, James

[merrill]

Hi, feef:

The fruit on yatay are very distinctive. In my experience it adds height quite rapidly.  A nice palm! - merrill

[AJQ]

Possibly Butia eriospatha or Butia gigantea, these are much greener.

Yatays are very difficult to grow out of habitat due the severe pruneing they tend to get before shipping, unless you have the summer heat to kick them off.

In UK they take ages to recover if at all. Most owners in UK are not too pleaesd with this Severe pruneing, as we don't get the summer heat to encourage the new growth.

Same with the Sabals, although my Sabals seem to fare a wee bit better as they have not had the relentless pruneing that the Yatays seem to get..

Most of the Photos of UK Yatays show an alarming "Pyrimidal" form to the top of the trunk, which gets shaper as the years go by and the lack of growth. If we get 3 fronds a year we are doing OK, the odd one may produce 5 fronds a year.

Further comment from other UK members would be needed though, as this is just my personal observations and they may do better in warmer climates. Captitata is much, much, better for us. Why ? I don't know, perhaps it is the Pruneing after all ?

These are very expensive Palms for us over here and are proving to be not too successfull. which is against all the current advice we have been given?????

Any Yatay experts out there to share their thoughts?

Regards Andy.

[Dypsisdean]

I just uploaded quite a few photos of various Butia including B. yatay to Palmpedia last night. You may want to take a look.

www.palmpedia.net

[Gaston in Argentina]

(AJQ @ Sep. 09 2007,16:11)

QUOTE

Possibly Butia eriospatha or Butia gigantea, these are much greener.

I agree with Andy comment, if the leaves of your Butias are green theres not much chance to be B. yatay.

We, palmaholics of here, say that is necesary to watch at least 4 times for to know well the difference, but after that is easy.-

If theres not fruits and seeds for watch...Yatay leaves are always grey, silver, white, leaflets are rigid, and not soft pendant as (most) capitatas wich colour is never so grey, save rare exceptions.-

Is possible that your palm are one of the many variegations of Butia capitata growing there as common palm, since B. yatay is a rare palm into cultivation.-

[malcthomas]

This picture was posted by Toni in the thread  

 'Photos of palms-Garden in Murcia'.

It was not named.  This is what I imagine a B.yatay to be like at this age...Any one agree?

[AJQ]

This is what I mean about the pyrimidal effect on the Yatay.

They get TOOO much of a severe pruneing before delivery and they don't realy get the chance to recover properly. Typically they arrive with just 3 or 4 fronds, 5 if you are lucky! This one is just over 21 years old, I have had it planted after delivery 3years and 5 months ago.

This year, 2 of the new fronds had gone all crispy and 2 had been snapped off by the wind. It was not a particularly Cold winter, 2 consecutive nights of -4C for a few hours and only a few random nights of -2C to -2.5C, several just sub zero, none consecutive. All temps recovered above zero by 09:00hrs the next mornings.

Perhaps trimming the older boots back may help encourage new growth? Anyone with thoughts on this? They arrive with excessively long old petioles/boots; where as the Capitatas don't. Anyone know the reason for this?

Regards Andy.

[Kris]

Dear Malchom & Andy  

thanks for the stills,its very useful to understand the variety in discussion.

love,

Kris  

[merrill]

Hi, Malcolm:

My single surviving B yatay, a seed from the large, old grove of very tall yatay from Concordia, Argentina, after many years of bearing fruit, still has far fewer fruit per infructescence than the one pictured. It is a bit difficult to visualize from the photo.  Fruit from mine are the reverse of pear-shaped, with a very large calyx, like a persimmon.

Gaston: Help! we need a photo of B yatay fruit! -  Best Wishes, merrill

[malcthomas]

Merrill

This particular one stands out to me because of the petiole length.  Local Butia have very long petioles.  It is similar to a couple of our paraguayensis but the infructescence on these are more upright.  I do recall one year Gaston posting a photo of capitata with fruit the size and colour of a mandarin.  I had never seen fruit produced like that on any Butia here.

Andy....All the best for your tree.  It does look like it is going to need it with your winter  on its way...

regards...Malcolm

[Dypsisdean]

(merrill @ Sep. 11 2007,19:25)

QUOTE

Help! we need a photo of B yatay fruit!

Merrill,

There is a pic of the fruit on Palmpedia. Here's a link to the B. yatay page.

http://palmpedia.net/wiki/index.php/B._yatay

[malcthomas]

Dean

How certain are you that these are yatay as opposed to capitata.  Petiole length would indicate to me that they are capitata and the fruit pictured are the same shape, size and colour of a form of capitata we have growing locally.

A few years ago most of the Butia growing in NZ were called yatay.  I did myself after obtaining my first palm book by Mary STEWART (I think that was her name) and being able to put a name to that blue palm that I would see around occassionally.  One year I bought some 'yatay" plants from a commercial grower on the assumption that he must have imported the seed.  When I questioned him a couple of years later as to the seed source he told me that he had got them from local trees.

I think I would be less sceptical if I was told that someone had carried out a floral examination to confirm the tree was yatay than by a pegged name tag in local park.

kind regards...Malcolm

[Dypsisdean]

Malcolm,

I can not personally confirm that a competant floral examination of each of the pictured plants at The Huntington Garden has taken place. I don't know what they have based their ID upon. I would hope that they have some reasonable assurance that their labeling is correct.  And I am uncertain of where the other photos that Geoff Stein submitted were taken. So I can't comment on the validity of those IDs, other than to say that Geoff Stein is as experienced as they come in palm ID and photography, not to mention his vast knowledge of palm hardiness.

I will forward this thread to him, hoping that he will have something to add.

[malcthomas]

Thanks Dean, that would be great...

regards....Malcolm

[Geoff]

Sorry I can't guarantee that all palms identified by the Huntington are indeed what they say they are, but I have no reason to say they are not that either.  Most of the large Butia species are extremely difficult to tell apart as about the only real distinguishing characteristics are floral details... B captita is so diverse and varible a plant that I could easily pick out 10 mature palms about southern California and argue they are all different species.  So it would not surprise me if B yatay could be confused with it, nor the other way around.  Every photo of B yatay I could find showed palms with greenish fronds- are these all wrong?  Perhaps, and perhaps not.  About the only consistent and relatively 'easy' difference between yatay and capitata are reportedly the mature fruits are larger than in B capitata.  However, I have also seen B capitatas with fruits that are twice the size of those on other B capitatas... hybrids?  Maybe THOSE are yatays?  purpurescens?  eriospathas?  Who knows?  I think it will probably turn out that telling these species apart by looking at the vegetative plant will be nearly impossible.  But despite all that blabbing, I still would not be surprised if the plants I show in both the Huntington and Nong Nooch gardens are really something else.  I think only someone who is studying this genus for their PhD dissertation should be allowed to argue what this or that is.

[iwan]

Here is a picture taken in May what was recently identifiied as B. yatay in the Dick Douglas garden.  Dick can fill you in more on the ID story.

Closer picture of the trunk

I didn't make a note of this in my photo log, but I am pretty sure this is the inflorescence of the same palm.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Iwan and Malcom.-

The palms you are showing are both Butia yatay.-

Years ago were sent by thousand from wild to Spain in containers.-

Andy, Your palm is a Butia yatay.-

perhaps your palm come from wild, in wich case their leaves NEED to be pruned for support the long travel to Europe.- A fewer leaves increase the surviving chances after transplanting because avoid transpiration of a palm that get some roots pruned also.- I think patient is the best solution, one time well established (can take more then one summer) they will look better building more roots and by reaction keeping the older leaves.- Butia capitata in market come from cultivation.-

Merrill. Fruits of Butia yatay are three times bigger then any capitata fruit.- Will look for a good picture to post.-

[Nigel]

Andy, your palm probably looks like that because of the toxic sand they arrive in. Whilst that sand is perfect for a the hot arid climate they grow in naturally, in the UK the sand becomes a waterlogged airless lump of clag that kills all roots and prevents new ones growing. I have now started to routinely wash it off and replace with good quality soil. In the area where I wash it off it is like a white beach, and when it rains the water lies on top of it for days without draining.

Gaston, an interesting comment re not having seen a green yatay. As you know Butia yatay is said to occur in Brazil, yet I saw specimens of this and some were slightly grey, others green. Dr Noblick said he believes this is no yatay, but needs further investigation.

It is a very BIG Butia !

[AJQ]

Thanks for the replies guys. So how do I get around this problem? It has been planted out for 3.5 years now and still only pushes out 3 fronds a year  It is a 21 year Old palm now.

I think digging it up to replace the soil may be a bit drastic and probably do more harm than good.

What about upping the does of Palm Booster to encourage the roots to break through the Clag lower down? Or will that also add to the problem and poison it ?

When I last looked the application of the palm booster seemed to be having a good effect on the roots and appeared to be at a similar stage as my Capitata's that were breaking the surface of the soil.

I will have another closer look in greater detail when I''m back again next week.

Regards Andy.

[Nigel]

Andy,

Why dont you blast away the top few inches with a hose. The new roots will then go sideways and over the clagball.

[AJQ]

Sounds like a fine plan.

Do I just recover with normal compost or leave it like that for awhile to watch what happens.

Obviously I'll recover before winter sets in.

Regards Andy.

[Nigel]

Nooooooo if you blast all hte sand away you will expose all the roots so you need to replace quickly with good soil.

[AJQ]

OK. Just testing ::

Regards Andy.

[PalmGuyWC]

To add to the confussion:

First, thanks Robert for posting the pics of my "supposed" Butia yata. Mine came from David Barry, a past Palm Society President and a nurseryman. He told me the seeds had come from the Chunta area of Argentina. Mine looks different from all my other Butias.  It holds more fronds and the leafletts are thiner and it holds more than the B. capitatas.  It is distinctly blue/grey in color, and is the most beautiful Butia I have.

Patrick Schafer has noticed that the male flowers are different from the B. capitatas.  They seem to have an "extention" and are not imbeded in the rhacis as are B. capitata. I have also noticed that the peduncle of the inflorescense is more rounded than those of B. capitata which is more flatened and oval in shape.

I was honered in May of this year to host a luncheon for the board members of the IPS, and many of the top palm taxonomists were here, inculding the God Almighty of palm taxonomist, the magnificant, John Dransfield.  John didn't comment on the Butia in question, but Dr. Noblick did, and he said he thought the Butia was Butia yata. It's hard to pin taxonomists down on identification unless they are in habitat, especially with a confussing genus such as Butias. I totally agree with the comments made by Geoff Stein.

I have two other Butias and the seeds came from Huntington Gardens and it was identified as Butia yata, V Paraguayensis. The two do not look alike, as one has a thin trunk, and the other very fat and almost trunkless. Coming from a botanical garden they are possibly crossed with another Butia. The one with a thin trunk has cream colored flowers and the other beautiful wine colored flowers. They both have very heavy textured fronds, thick and leathery. The one with a fat short trunk tends to sprall and spread rather than grow up. (And yes, Patrick Schafer has hybridized both palms, and the the thin trunked one seems to be more receptive to Parajubaea pollen than any of the others).  The fat, short trunked one started blooming at a very early age, and I think I have pictures stashed away of it in fruit with the infrutescense laying on the ground. All of my Butias have weathered some pretty brutal winters with the lowest temp. of 14F (-10C) with only minor tip damage to the lower fronds.

There are many Butias growing in Waycross, Southern Georgia, and back in the 80's, they experienced temps down to zero F. (aprox. -18C) and some were killed, but most survived. So did the Serenoa and Rhapidophyllum's which are native palms there.

I'm sorry if I've added to the general confussion concerning the identification of Butias.

Dick

[Nigel]

(PalmGuyWC @ Sep. 13 2007,09:50)

QUOTE

I have two other Butias and the seeds came from Huntington Gardens and it was identified as Butia yata, V Paraguayensis. The two do not look alike, as one has a thin trunk, and the other very fat and almost trunkless. Coming from a botanical garden they are possibly crossed with another Butia.

Dick, that is exactly my experience with the Butia paraguayensis seeds from the tree of Gaston, which I explained about earlier in the thread !!!!!

Two completely different kinds of progeny !!!

[merrill]

QUOTING GASTON:

Merrill. Fruits of Butia yatay are three times bigger then any capitata fruit.- Will look for a good picture to post.- END QUOTE

Hi, Gaston:  During many years, I was able to produce the huge fruit you describe only by hand self pollination of the Concordia yatay even tho it bloomed six times per year.  This is the only way it ever provided any fruit, not even sterile fruit, although growing within a very diverse group of Butiinae.  Your very interesting photos you've published of yatay X Queen hybrids were relatively rare compared to the many XButyagrus produced by nature [and by man] in Florida.  Any reclassification of yatay should take into account the difficulty of hybridizing it w/ queen and other Butia..  Many thanks for your very useful information  

Best Wishes, merrill

[malcthomas]

Geoff,

Many thanks for the response to Deans request and for your reply.  

There does seem to be a consensus that yatay has a more fuller crown, however the aesthetic pruning that goes on with cultivated trees would make this feature pretty unreliable.

Dick...Your one certainly has a dense look to it.  Can you advise the length of it's petioles.  Has Patrick remarked on the compartive size of the female flowers? I understand yatay to be almost twice the size.

Gaston... can you make any comment on petiole length as being a distinguishing  feature between these two species.  Again I understand capitata's to be 200mm - 400mm longer.  Can you make a visual indentification of mature habitat trees based on vegetatvie appearance such as trunk size and height and seed size?

Kind regards..Malcolm

[Hillizard]

Just adding a picture of my Butia yatay (originally from Jungle Music, quite a few years ago). Fronds are a bit more blue than the more common gray-green variety of the true B. capitata, and its petioles are much less arched. Both species handle low winter temps here without a problem. 

[Jamesasb]

thread ressurected after 10 years. good job:)  Your yatay looks loveley

 

[Darold Petty]

Here are habitat shots from northern Argentina;

 

[Tomsky]

[Fusca]

6 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Here are habitat shots from northern Argentina;

 

Darold, these are great photos.  Early in this thread I read:

 

On 9/13/2007, 1:47:45, Gaston in Argentina said:

Fruits of Butia yatay are three times bigger then any capitata fruit

The photo of the fruit shows that the fruit of this palm is more elongated, but only slightly larger than some fruit I have seen here in Texas that I assume to be from Butia odorata or B. capitata.  The seeds of B. yatay however seem to be more elongated.  I need to take a closer look at my Butia - the leaf color and lack of archness of mine seem very similar to the photos I've seen here and on Palmpedia of B. yatay.  Mine was sold as B. capitata and has not flowered yet (about 2 feet of trunk and 6 feet overall height) and I've seen similar sized Butias flowering.

[maesy]

As far as I know this yatay from dick's garden is the mother of the yatay x jubaea crosses patric has made.

Here is mine.

 

 

[Tyrone]

What colour flowers does B yatay have? Are they meant to be a purple red?  What colour does B odorata have ( what we used to call capitata). 

I have a very happy Butia here that is blue gets purple flowers and big fruit but is assumed it was odorata. I even made bottles of wine from the fruit. It was planted by the previous owner next to the lake but when I moved in I started irrigating it in summer and feeding it up about 3.5 years ago. It almost instantly flowered and hasn't stopped. It's now about 4 times bigger than when we moved in. Will have to post a pic. I love the thing. It looks identical though younger than the pics of yatay in habitat.