Palm root depths

[miamicuse]

I have a strip of side yard about 50 feet long and 4 feet side that I would like to plant something on.  Zone 10b, east exposure direct sun almost all day.

The only thing is, I have a 4" PVC drain line that runs along that same strip of space at about 32" below ground.  I just had the pipe installed and back filled a few months ago.   So I do not want anything with roots that will reach 32" deep.

I read that most palms do not have roots exceeding 36" in depth.  Is this true?

Will a palm such as Ptychosperma elegans have roots shallower than 32"?  If not can someone recommend a palm that I can plant spaced may be 10' apart along that strip that is slender and solitary?  If palms won't work I will consider other plants too.

[96720]

Palm roots won’t hurt a pipe they are not like tree roots that keep on expanding!!

[SeanK]

Palms have herbaceous roots. OK to plant a Royal there.

[sonoranfans]

I have never seen any palm root damage in 20 years and I have some monsters all over my 1" irrigation pipes.  I would not grow a royal in that thin space(4' wide) due to the huge dropping leaves and crownshafts that can weight over 50lbs.  I have noticed damage from many dozens of falling leaves from mine is restricted to about 8-9' from the trunk so I dont plant things under royals or try to fit them in super tight spaces.  4' is too tight IMO.  But many palms should be fine, archies, satakentia, teddy bears, should all do fine.

[Allen]

You are not going to hurt a 4" pvc pipe 32 inches down plant wherever.  Maybe make sure you don't plant on a easement where a utility can come dig it up.

[Jim in Los Altos]

These Archontophoenix roots in the photos wereexposed when I began to demo my pool/pond. They grew between the concrete and fiberglass and to a depth of six feet and well past 30’ from the two palms pictured. The roots are harmless on nearly any palm however. 

 

 

Those roots are coming from the two palms up by the house. 

[miamicuse]

On 9/1/2022 at 7:44 PM, Jim in Los Altos said:

These Archontophoenix roots in the photos wereexposed when I began to demo my pool/pond. They grew between the concrete and fiberglass and to a depth of six feet and well past 30’ from the two palms pictured. The roots are harmless on nearly any palm however. 

 

 

Those roots are coming from the two palms up by the house. 

wow this is amazing with roots this long and far reaching especially those Archontophoenix aren't that tall.  Thanks for sharing!

[miamicuse]

I will not be planting any palms that can get massive like a royal.  Even if it's roots can't damage pipes it can get deeper and tangle with pipes and when we have a hurricane and if the palm falls over the pipe will be broken and raised with it.  I had a neighbor with her 6" PVC pipe raised 4' in the air when her black olive tree came down during hurricane Wilma in 2015.  No root penetration into the pipe, but roots were hugging the pipe and when the roots moved, so did the pipe.

Also another consideration is sometimes pipe leaks a little if a joint is weak or there is movement in the soil (bad compaction when backfilling), and I once was excavating a pipe with no "visible" roots entering the pipe.  Yes there were roots around the pipe that I had to cut away in order to free up some room to install a tee for a vertical riser for a cleanout access.  What I could believe is I saw a tiny strand of root, not even the girth of a tooth pick, may be 1/32" of diameter entering a joint.  I thought OK, there may be a short piece of the same size inside the pipe.  To my amazement, when I cut the pipe open to redo that joint, there is a root ball inside the size of a bird's nest.  That single strand of root entering that pipe, once receiving water and nutrients, got big.

So right now I am still thinking about Ptychosperma elegans, I also have two Dypsis decaryi (yes I know it's name has changed but I haven't looked it up yet) that's 5 feet tall and may work in that tighter space and sandy soil.

Decisions decisions.

[sonoranfans]

comparing palms to an olive tree?  You should know better than that.  And olive trees are semi-arid trees that are a bad choice in miami.  And then there is the fact that olive trees have invasive roots and olive trees do;  But with a small packed in yard with plenty of hardscape, I wouldnt plant any huge palms either.  When thinking about what palms would do well in miami, decaryi doesnt even come to mind.   If you get a hurricane bad enough to knock down a royal or sabal, your irrigation pipes are the least of your worries, the house is going to get hammered.  

[MrTropical]

1 hour ago, miamicuse said:

I will not be planting any palms that can get massive like a royal.  Even if it's roots can't damage pipes it can get deeper and tangle with pipes and when we have a hurricane and if the palm falls over the pipe will be broken and raised with it.  I had a neighbor with her 6" PVC pipe raised 4' in the air when her black olive tree came down during hurricane Wilma in 2015.  No root penetration into the pipe, but roots were hugging the pipe and when the roots moved, so did the pipe.

Also another consideration is sometimes pipe leaks a little if a joint is weak or there is movement in the soil (bad compaction when backfilling), and I once was excavating a pipe with no "visible" roots entering the pipe.  Yes there were roots around the pipe that I had to cut away in order to free up some room to install a tee for a vertical riser for a cleanout access.  What I could believe is I saw a tiny strand of root, not even the girth of a tooth pick, may be 1/32" of diameter entering a joint.  I thought OK, there may be a short piece of the same size inside the pipe.  To my amazement, when I cut the pipe open to redo that joint, there is a root ball inside the size of a bird's nest.  That single strand of root entering that pipe, once receiving water and nutrients, got big.

So right now I am still thinking about Ptychosperma elegans, I also have two Dypsis decaryi (yes I know it's name has changed but I haven't looked it up yet) that's 5 feet tall and may work in that tighter space and sandy soil.

Decisions decisions.

Olive tree roots and palm tree roots are very much different. Not a good comparison. You will not have any issues with your PVC pipe by planting a palm in that area.

9-12-2022

[MrTropical]

5 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

comparing palms to an olive tree?  You should know better than that.  And olive trees are semi-arid trees that are a bad choice in miami.  And then there is the fact that olive trees have invasive roots and olive trees do;  But with a small packed in yard with plenty of hardscape, I wouldnt plant any huge palms either.  When thinking about what palms would do well in miami, decaryi doesnt even come to mind.   If you get a hurricane bad enough to knock down a royal or sabal, your irrigation pipes are the least of your worries, the house is going to get hammered.  

I second this.

9-12-2022

[miamicuse]

21 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

comparing palms to an olive tree?  You should know better than that.  And olive trees are semi-arid trees that are a bad choice in miami.  And then there is the fact that olive trees have invasive roots and olive trees do;  But with a small packed in yard with plenty of hardscape, I wouldnt plant any huge palms either.  When thinking about what palms would do well in miami, decaryi doesnt even come to mind.   If you get a hurricane bad enough to knock down a royal or sabal, your irrigation pipes are the least of your worries, the house is going to get hammered.  

I am not worried about irrigation pipes.  I was referring exclusively to sewer lines.  This is a picture of my neighbor's 6" sewer line up in the air after her tree came down.  House had zero damage, but no drain use for over 4 weeks and had to stay at a hotel before the city can come deal with their part due to the pipe has to be replaced from inside her property to a point under the sidewalk.  Again, the roots did NOT penetrate the pipes, just tangled around the pipes so it pulled the pipe up when it fell.

I have had quite a few trees came down on various properties in South Florida over the years, mangoes, longans, crape myrtles, a bunch of ficuses, and a few tall palms too.  Here is one that leaned down during Irma until it was stopped by the roof.  No property damages except for fences.

I think most people planted big trees have no idea what's underneath when they planted.  In my case I know a 4" pipe runs underneath, I know the exact location and depth, so I want to make sure I am not doing anything that could compromise that.

I Googled and many articles said palm roots are limited to 36" below ground...which is good news but then I saw a post about two palms with roots reaching under the bottom of a swimming pool and that tells me yes palms roots can reach deep and get hug/tangle/wrap whatever obstacles they run into.  My reason to mention the olive tree is not to say a palm's root will be as invasive as that of an olive tree, but when roots wrap around a pipe what can happen if that plant topples.

[Jim in Los Altos]

1 hour ago, miamicuse said:

I am not worried about irrigation pipes.  I was referring exclusively to sewer lines.  This is a picture of my neighbor's 6" sewer line up in the air after her tree came down.  House had zero damage, but no drain use for over 4 weeks and had to stay at a hotel before the city can come deal with their part due to the pipe has to be replaced from inside her property to a point under the sidewalk.  Again, the roots did NOT penetrate the pipes, just tangled around the pipes so it pulled the pipe up when it fell.

I have had quite a few trees came down on various properties in South Florida over the years, mangoes, longans, crape myrtles, a bunch of ficuses, and a few tall palms too.  Here is one that leaned down during Irma until it was stopped by the roof.  No property damages except for fences.

I think most people planted big trees have no idea what's underneath when they planted.  In my case I know a 4" pipe runs underneath, I know the exact location and depth, so I want to make sure I am not doing anything that could compromise that.

I Googled and many articles said palm roots are limited to 36" below ground...which is good news but then I saw a post about two palms with roots reaching under the bottom of a swimming pool and that tells me yes palms roots can reach deep and get hug/tangle/wrap whatever obstacles they run into.  My reason to mention the olive tree is not to say a palm's root will be as invasive as that of an olive tree, but when roots wrap around a pipe what can happen if that plant topples.

Another thing to consider is that trees like the olive have woody roots that are much stronger than palm roots. Palm roots are flexible to a degree but small in diameter and brittle as well and tend to grow in a linear fashion. That explains why they don’t harm plumbing even if they fall. Woody trees have roots that grow in all directions and can grow in diameter as wide as the tree’s trunk and entangle pipes. Palms don’t do that. You can see how straight the exposed roots are growing and their diminutive diameter in the photo in my earlier post. 

[Merlyn]

On 9/1/2022 at 7:44 PM, Jim in Los Altos said:

These Archontophoenix roots in the photos wereexposed when I began to demo my pool/pond. They grew between the concrete and fiberglass and to a depth of six feet and well past 30’ from the two palms pictured. The roots are harmless on nearly any palm however. 

Those roots are coming from the two palms up by the house. 

Gadzooks!!!  That's crazy!  It looks like a bunch of roots just found the seam between concrete and fiberglass and just kept growing in the same direction.  Maybe one root found it through there and then others were forced to grow parallel to the first one?  Either way that's impressive!  And it's a good example of why you shouldn't plant a palm over or near a septic field.

As far as the original question goes, I wouldn't plant a big palm there anyway.  I'd probably go with something reasonably skinny and not a profuse clustering type.  That's just for practical reasons, since it's only 4 feet wide.  Maybe a "low clustering" palm like Dypsis (er...Chyrsdlkdkhfduopus) Lanceolata could work.  Or Dypsis Rosea if there's a little shade?  Ptycho Elegans seems like a good choice to me.  I've got a small spot that I've been trying to figure out, I want something small crown diameter, small trunk diameter, tall growing, and cold hardy to the mid 20s.  Very few palms meet all of those criteria...

For roots, would this palm rip up a 4" PVC pipe 32 inches down?  Probably not.  But maybe. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

5 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Gadzooks!!!  That's crazy!  It looks like a bunch of roots just found the seam between concrete and fiberglass and just kept growing in the same direction.  Maybe one root found it through there and then others were forced to grow parallel to the first one?  Either way that's impressive!  And it's a good example of why you shouldn't plant a palm over or near a septic field.

As far as the original question goes, I wouldn't plant a big palm there anyway.  I'd probably go with something reasonably skinny and not a profuse clustering type.  That's just for practical reasons, since it's only 4 feet wide.  Maybe a "low clustering" palm like Dypsis (er...Chyrsdlkdkhfduopus) Lanceolata could work.  Or Dypsis Rosea if there's a little shade?  Ptycho Elegans seems like a good choice to me.  I've got a small spot that I've been trying to figure out, I want something small crown diameter, small trunk diameter, tall growing, and cold hardy to the mid 20s.  Very few palms meet all of those criteria...

For roots, would this palm rip up a 4" PVC pipe 32 inches down?  Probably not.  But maybe. 

Arthur, Those Archontophoenix roots in the photo were only a small number of them. When I further cut up the fiberglass pool bottom, roots were throughout and all growing in a linear fashion away from the two palms. Even more roots of this sort were found growing under the concrete. I estimate that the roots had travelled at least 40 feet from those palms.